Second Thoughts on Gays in the Military

[thedrifter]

January 2, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Second Thoughts on Gays in the Military
By JOHN M. SHALIKASHVILI

Steilacoom, Wash.

TWO weeks ago, President Bush called for a long-term plan to increase the size of the armed forces. As our leaders consider various options for carrying out Mr. Bush’s vision, one issue likely to generate fierce debate is “don’t ask, don’t tell,” the policy that bars openly gay service members from the military. Indeed, leaders in the new Congress are planning to re-introduce a bill to repeal the policy next year.

As was the case in 1993 — the last time the American people thoroughly debated the question of whether openly gay men and lesbians should serve in the military — the issue will give rise to passionate feelings on both sides. The debate must be conducted with sensitivity, but it must also consider the evidence that has emerged over the last 14 years.

When I was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, I supported the current policy because I believed that implementing a change in the rules at that time would have been too burdensome for our troops and commanders. I still believe that to have been true. The concern among many in the military was that given the longstanding view that homosexuality was incompatible with service, letting people who were openly gay serve would lower morale, harm recruitment and undermine unit cohesion.

In the early 1990s, large numbers of military personnel were opposed to letting openly gay men and lesbians serve. President Bill Clinton, who promised to lift the ban during his campaign, was overwhelmed by the strength of the opposition, which threatened to overturn any executive action he might take. The compromise that came to be known as “don’t ask, don’t tell” was thus a useful speed bump that allowed temperatures to cool for a period of time while the culture continued to evolve.

The question before us now is whether enough time has gone by to give this policy serious reconsideration. Much evidence suggests that it has.

Last year I held a number of meetings with gay soldiers and marines, including some with combat experience in Iraq, and an openly gay senior sailor who was serving effectively as a member of a nuclear submarine crew. These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers.

This perception is supported by a new Zogby poll of more than 500 service members returning from Afghanistan and Iraq, three quarters of whom said they were comfortable interacting with gay people. And 24 foreign nations, including Israel, Britain and other allies in the fight against terrorism, let gays serve openly, with none reporting morale or recruitment problems.

I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces. Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.

But if America is ready for a military policy of nondiscrimination based on sexual orientation, the timing of the change should be carefully considered. As the 110th Congress opens for business, some of its most urgent priorities, like developing a more effective strategy in Iraq, share widespread support that spans political affiliations. Addressing such issues could help heal the divisions that cleave our country. Fighting early in this Congress to lift the ban on openly gay service members is not likely to add to that healing, and it risks alienating people whose support is needed to get this country on the right track.

By taking a measured, prudent approach to change, political and military leaders can focus on solving the nation’s most pressing problems while remaining genuinely open to the eventual and inevitable lifting of the ban. When that day comes, gay men and lesbians will no longer have to conceal who they are, and the military will no longer need to sacrifice those whose service it cannot afford to lose.

John M. Shalikashvili, a retired army general, was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1993 to 1997.

Ellie

[SuNmAN]

I really don't care if the Marine next to me was gay

just please don't hit on me, I'm a pretty good looking dude and I wouldn't like that.

otherwise I'm cool with you.

[pounder412002]

i think a gay man can shoot as well as a non gay. i say let them join and give them bullets. whos cares bout the sexual nature of the preson killing the oppossing force!.

[drumcorpssnare]

Throughout the course of my life, I have met homosexuals, none of whom would I classify as a 'warrior.' A sissy maybe. A crybaby, perhaps. But not a warrior. But, the powers that be insist they be allowed in the military. Fine.
But, when one of them wants to put something in his mouth that is long, hard, and shoots.....I hope it's the muzzle of his weapon!

drumcorpssnare

[Doug Walker]

Figures an Army Dog would write this.

[SuNmAN]

Figures an Army Dog would write this.

I think an "Army Dog" who is a 4 star General with 39 years of service, a Vietnam Veteran where he earned a Bronze Star with Combat V device's words carry some weight.

[SuNmAN]

Throughout the course of my life, I have met homosexuals, none of whom would I classify as a 'warrior.' A sissy maybe. A crybaby, perhaps. But not a warrior. But, the powers that be insist they be allowed in the military. Fine.
But, when one of them wants to put something in his mouth that is long, hard, and shoots.....I hope it's the muzzle of his weapon!

drumcorpssnare

I've met too many Marines who I wouldn't call a warrior if I was forced to.

And if a gay man wants to put a wang in his mouth, he has the freedom to do so and its really not any of our business

having said that...I still oppose gay marriage lol

[greensideout]

I really don't care if the Marine next to me was gay

just please don't hit on me, I'm a pretty good looking dude and I wouldn't like that.

otherwise I'm cool with you.

Quote: "I'm a pretty good looking dude".


We often disagree SuN and here we go again. Don't mis-understand, I'm not saying that you are butt ugly. We just disagree.

[DWG]

...I still oppose gay marriage lol

Does that mean you just want to play the field?

[drumcorpssnare]

Quick story- 1980 Gillette, WY I was in the Stockman's Bar, havin' a few. A couple of effeminate gay guys came in, groping each other. They ordered a drink, and the barmaid said she wouldn't serve them. So, they put some quarters in the pool table to play some 8-ball.
The bar maid asked me to get rid of them, and the other patrons concurred.
I walked over, grabbed the 8-ball and rolled in into a pocket and said,"Game's over."
One of them replied, "You can't make us leave!" So, I grabbed both by the front of their shirts, dragged them to the front door and threw them into the street.
Five minutes later a city cop walks into the bar. He comes up to me, and says a person matching my description alledgedly threw two guys out of the bar.
Now, mind you, I was dressed up in my Civil War artillery officer uniform, including 1860 Army Colt .44 , knee length boots, kepi, etc.
I said to the policeman, "Nope. Wasn't me."
He said, "Musta been somebody else dressed just like you..."
I said, "Musta been..."
He just smiled and walked away, shakin' his head.

drumcorpssnare

[thedrifter]

Retired General Changes Mind on 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'
Susan Jones
Senior Editor

(CNSNews.com) - A former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says Congress should seriously reconsider the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy that forbids homosexuals and lesbians from serving in the military if they openly admit their sexual preferences.

In an op-ed in Tuesday's New York Times, retired Gen. John Shalikashvili -- who earlier supported the policy -- wrote, "I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces."

He also says the U.S. military "has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job."

A group that wants to end the ban on openly homosexual servicemembers welcomed Shalikashvili's op-ed.

"The counsel of military leaders increasingly supports repeal of the law," said C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN).

"Congress must, as General Shalikashvili urges, consider the overwhelming evidence of the past fourteen years. If they do, the clear answer is that we must lift the ban," Osburn added.

General Shalikashvili says he changed his mind after "a number of meetings with gay soldiers and marines, including some with combat experience in Iraq, and an openly gay senior sailor who was serving effectively as a member of a nuclear submarine crew."

He said the conversations, which took place last year, showed him "just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers."

According to SLDN, the Pentagon has dismissed more than 11,000 men and women under the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" enforcement policy.

During his presidential campaign in 1992, President Bill Clinton advocated repealing the ban on homosexuals in the military. But in November 1993, Clinton signed a law reaffirming the long-standing principle that homosexuality is incompatible with military service.

The 1993 law says there is no constitutional right to serve in the armed forces; it says "success in combat" requires strong "unit cohesion" and "bonds of trust" among individual service members; and it says the presence of "persons who demonstrate a propensity of intent to engage in homosexual acts would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability."

The law notes that "the prohibition against homosexual conduct is a longstanding element of military law that continues to be necessary in the unique circumstances of military service."

On the other side of the argument, a group that supports the "gay ban" -- the Center for Military Readiness -- has long warned that lifting the ban would force the military to jettison traditional values in favor of a homosexual, "politically correct" agenda.

Allowing openly homosexual soldiers to serve in the military will depress, not boost, recruiting numbers, the Center for Military Readiness has argued.

Ellie

[thedrifter]

January 02, 2007
Shalikashvili calls for rethinking ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’

By Gordon Lubold
Staff writer

The man who served as the nation’s senior military officer when the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy on gays in the military was put in place says it is time to rethink that policy.

Army Gen. John Shalikashvili, who retired in 1997, says he supported “don’t ask, don’t tell” when it was enacted in 1993, now argues that circumstances today —a military straining to deal with two wars amid calls for a bigger force — dictate that it’s time for the country to revisit the issue of gays in the military.

“I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces,” Shalikashvili said in an op-ed piece in Jan. 2 edition of The New York Times. “Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.”

Shalikashvili has met with several gay and lesbian service members over the past year, some with recent combat experience, and said he has come to the belief that their sexual orientation would not have the detrimental effect on morale that many believe.

“These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers,” he wrote.

As chairman of the Joint Chiefs between 1993 and 1997, Shalikashvili said he supported the current policy because “implementing a change in the rules at that time would have been too burdensome for our troops and commanders.” But as Democrats take over both the House and Senate for the first time in 12 years, the opportunity may arise to raise the issue again.

“Don’’t ask, don’t tell” allows gays and lesbians to serve in the military as long as they keep their orientation secret and do not engage in homosexual sex. It also forbids commanders and supervisors from directly questioning a service member’s sexual orientation.

Shalikashvili is the most senior and prominent retired military member to call for a change to the policy, which was a compromise to President Clinton’s campaign call in 1992 to allow gays to serve openly in the military.

Many rank-and-file service members do not want to see homosexuals serving actively and openly, saying it would hurt unit morale because homosexuality simply isn’t compatible with military service. The Pentagon has long maintained that homosexuality is “detrimental to good order and discipline.”

But attitudes may be changing. A Zogby poll of more than 500 service members released Dec. 19 found that 73 percent of military members are “comfortable” with lesbians and gays, and 23 percent “know for sure” that someone in their unit is homosexual. At the same time, the most recent Military Times poll of more than 6,000 subscribers indicated that the percentage of active-duty personnel who think homosexuals should be allowed to serve openly in the military has risen slightly every year since that poll began, from 24 percent in 2003 to 30 percent in 2006.

In the op-ed piece, Shalikashvili said the most vexing problem facing the military right now is addressing the challenge in Iraq. But if Congress does take up the issue, Shalikashvili said it should do so very carefully.

“By taking a measured, prudent approach to change, political and military leaders can focus on solving the nation’s most pressing problems while remaining genuinely open to the eventual and inevitable lifting of the ban” on gays serving openly, he wrote. “When that day comes, gay men and lesbians will no longer have to conceal who they are, and the military will no longer need to sacrifice those whose service it cannot afford to lose.”

The Service Members Legal Defense Network, a gay advocacy group based in Washington, estimates that 65,000 gay or lesbian service members are in the military. About 11,000 people have been discharged from the military under “don’t ask, don’t tell,” including some in critical specialties such as foreign linguists, the group said.

A spokesman for the group said Shalikashvili’s piece is a big step forward for advocates of the change.

“Gen. Shalikashvili’s statement is the first by a Joint Chiefs chairman to call for repeal, and as such is enormously significant,” said C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of the SLDN, said in a prepared statement. “We continue to lose critical personnel who happen to be gay. As Gen. Shalikashvili points out, continuing to keep this law on the books is detrimental to our national security.”

Ellie

[The1stSgt]

We're not talking about just being in combat with homosexuals, were taking about open homosexuality 24/7, 365, everywhere, every place. In the barracks, at the clubs, MWR, PX, etc., etc.

Can you picture two drunk homosexual Marines kissing on the dance floor of the enlisted or officers club. How about a homosexual over nighters in the BEQ room? Your family comes to visit you at your base and here are two homosexual Marines walking arm in arm through the PX. How about three homosexual Marines having a love triangle and get into a fight that ends up at Office Hours. What tha f**k !!!!

That is not the image I want for the Marine Corps. It greatly lowers my morale just thinking about it.

The United States is steadily losing it's tolerant politically correct mind.

Just entertaining the idea that the open homosexual lifestyle is compatible with the traditional military lifestyle is evidence of distorted thinking.

[SuNmAN]

Quote: "I'm a pretty good looking dude".


We often disagree SuN and here we go again. Don't mis-understand, I'm not saying that you are butt ugly. We just disagree.

lol I know I'm no Brad Pitt

but I'd give my face an 8 out of 10 and my body a 9 out of 10 lol

[pounder412002]

i never thought of it in that manner .24/7 gay marines is a downer id say as well .i do not think that seeing them in the px and e-club or officers club and being openly gay dancing in the clubs is a good picture for our corps.i think i had a bad idea thanx for the eye opener brothers semper fi