What does that photograph by Joe Rosenthal really Mean?

[USNAviator]

I have a grandson who recently graduated from Boot at PI and two more grandsons who plan to enter the Corps next year. (one as a grunt and the other one through OCS. Chris (the one already in the Corps) is quite amazed at how little his buddies know about the flag raising. Many of them think it was a posed picture. I have just been wondering what the new generation thinks about the Rosenthal picture. As for me, I am completely gung ho.

If I am not boring you, I will answer your earlier questions and give you an insight of who I really am.

By the way, I have four grandsons and three are going to be Marines. Not a bad score. The fourth one is hoping to go to West Point. His father recently graduated War College and is the Commander of the 56th Brigade. I don't think I will win that one.

Bob

I got the above post OK. Not sure what happened to the other one

[usmc987332]

This subject doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I might as well express my feelings.

In the beginning there was no intent for a cover-up. However, when the photograph was selected for the 7th War Bond, it was advantageous for the photograph to known as THE ORIGINAL FLAG RAISING. I do know there was a real cover up. We were all aware of the fact that the photograph was of the second flag raising. We were allowed to write home about it, and it was not censored. However, when our 2nd edition of the Spearhead (magazine) came out in the summer of 45, the editor was very careful not mention a second flag raising. The cover was a enlarged copy of Rosenthal's photograph. The flag raising was mentioned briefly in the magazine with another photograph of the larger flag. It does not mention two flag raisings.

The June edition of the Leatherneck magazine had the same photograph on its cover. However, the flag raising is not mentioned in the magazine.

As I mentioned earlier, when Rosenthal sent a dispatch from Guam surrounding the events taking place at the time of his photographs, he mentioned there was an earlier event, but did not mentioned that was a flag raising. I am assuming this dispatch was sent some time after he sent his photographs.

I am quite certain the three men on the tour were under instructions not to mentioned that there were two flag raisings.

Some Marines who were looking for glory were hurt. In fact, the First Platoon of B Company planted a flag on the beach on D Day. Men from the same platoon were the first men to cross the island and cut Suribachi off from the rest of the island. They would probably have received more publicity had it not been for the photograph.

The original flag raisers felt they had been deprived of their glory. They had their's when their flag went up.

By 1950 the complete story was well publicized. Of course, by that time most people had lost interest in the event, and still assumed there was only one flag raising.

As for me, if I had been my responsibility to make the decision, I think I would have done exactly what they did.

Before you toss any rocks, let me say that if it had been my responsibility to order the fire bombing of Japan and drop the atomic bombs, I would probably have refused to order these atrtacks.. I would have been wrong.

Bob Allen,
B128

On March 26, 1945.Life Magazine did articles on both flag raisings. The articles were straight forward with pictures of both flag raisings. There are probably other articles in other publications, so the American public was not completely in the dark about Rosenthal's photograph being a picture of the second flag raising.

Incidentally, Life Magazine did an exellent job in its coverage of the Battle of Iwo Jima.

[usmc987332]

Bob

Thank you sir for your response. May I ask about your opinion re. the "three"? Think they were exploited? And thank you for informing me of the Bond drive number, I thought it was 5 or 6 and hell you're 84 and I'm 56...lol. You have one hell of a memory

Did your fellow Marines at the time think the second flag raising was a bunch of crap? A Cluster PR move? Did you ever meet any of the original flag raisers?

Your opinions about fire bombings and the A Bomb are noted and respected. I teach history and to meet a survivor of Iwo at this late date would to me be akin to perhaps meeting a survivor of Pickets Charge in the early 1900's

One final point sir,, why did you feel the need to bring this up? If it's personal, no need to respond

V/R

Cmdr Dan O'Shea

Were the three Marines exploited by someone other than the Marine Corps? I believe they were exploitd to the nth degree by the Treasury Department. I think Treasury Department did their job and got the very most out of the flag raising. Its a good thing I am not in the PR business. I like to think I have too much integrity to reach a goal regardless of the cost.

That being said, I do not think they were responsible for what happened to the men after the tour was over.

I believe John Bradley suffered more from what he went through than the other men. I think the reason he kept his Navy Cross from his family is that for some reason he felt it was given to him so he could flaunted as a big hero on the bond tour. He earned his Navy Cross and should have been very proud of it.

The Chief is a different story. I have a classmate who was a sniper serving with the Hq Co. of the 1st Bn. After his return, I had the opportunity to meet Hayes. Unfortunately he was soused at the time. From what I have been told, the Chief's alcohol problems began long before the bond tour. Personally, I feel he would have wound up the way he did, even if there had never been a bond tour.

As for Gagnon, I am not sure what would have happened to him had there had never been a bond tour. He apparently had an ego problem. Certainly the publicity he received while on on the bond tour fanned the flames. The tour probably did have a negative effect on his life.

I have always been overwhelmed by the Rosenthal photograph even though I have always known the true story.

During the month of April, 1945, all the men of the 28th received a copy of Rosenthal's photograph. It is probably my most cherished possession for WWII. I have many items including a saumrai sword, a rifle, a bayonet and many other items.

Since Kate passed away last year, I have been living at Great Oaks, an assisted living facility. My apartment certainly reflects my love for the Corps. I have two small statues of the flag raising given to me by two of my grandchildren on display. I also have a 24" x 36" painting of the flag raising I did many years ago. I did have a much larger painting I had done in my office until someone offered me too much for it.

I think by this time you have been able to figure out why I was interested in the subject of the flag raising. For some time, I have been curious as to how the younger generations, including your generation, regarded the flag raising. From what I have heard so far, I have not been disappointed.

By the way, what grades do you teach?

Bob Allen,
B-128

[USNAviator]

Bob

I teach at the college level. Right now I'm teaching/lecturing at VMI on the history of the Corps and also teaching at the U of Richmond. Since I don't have a Doctorate I'm not a full time faculty member. I like it this way, it keeps me fresh

Bob, I'll assume Kate was your wife? If so please accept my condolences. I too lost my wife, Lorrie, 3 years ago.

[USNAviator]

Bob

Interesting take on all three men

I agree both Bradley and Hayes suffered the most. As you mentioned Bradley was awarded the Navy Cross yet I can't remember if it was for action before or after the flag raising. I also know he was wounded and lost his best friend who was hideously tortured

Hayes probably did have a drinking problem prior to Iwo. I know he saw action before, perhaps Cape Gloucester?

Gagnon is an enigma. Recruiting poster Marine who for some reason believed all the hype during the Bond tour. He never fit it after separation yet I doubt it had anything to do with combat. He was just a foul up married to a woman who tried to cash in on his limited fame

I grew up in Arlington, VA and use to ride my bike over to the Memorial every so often. To me the best view is from the reverse side where you can see all the faces. The sculptor took a little bit of license. In the photo Hayes's hands are reaching up but not touching the pole, at the Memorial both hands are on the pole. No big deal just something I noticed

Bob I'm going to send you a friendship request, I'd be honored to have you as a Leatherneck friend......

[usmc987332]

Bob

Interesting take on all three men

I agree both Bradley and Hayes suffered the most. As you mentioned Bradley was awarded the Navy Cross yet I can't remember if it was for action before or after the flag raising. I also know he was wounded and lost his best friend who was hideously tortured

Hayes probably did have a drinking problem prior to Iwo. I know he saw action before, perhaps Cape Gloucester?

Gagnon is an enigma. Recruiting poster Marine who for some reason believed all the hype during the Bond tour. He never fit it after separation yet I doubt it had anything to do with combat. He was just a foul up married to a woman who tried to cash in on his limited fame

I grew up in Arlington, VA and use to ride my bike over to the Memorial every so often. To me the best view is from the reverse side where you can see all the faces. The sculptor took a little bit of license. In the photo Hayes's hands are reaching up but not touching the pole, at the Memorial both hands are on the pole. No big deal just something I noticed

Bob I'm going to send you a friendship request, I'd be honored to have you as a Leatherneck friend......

Badley's actions for his Navy Cross took place on Feb. 21. I do not know the date he was put up for the award, nor do I know the name of the person recommending him. I strongly suspect it was Lt. Wells.

By the way, if you can give me your address, I would conisider it an honor to send you a copy of my book, "The First Battalion of the 28th Marines on Iwo Jima." You might find it useful in your teaching. It is widely accepted as a reliable reference book by all the major universities. It was first published in 1998 and is still in print.

[USNAviator]

"By the way, if you can give me your address, I would conisider it an honor to send you a copy of my book, "The First Battalion of the 28th Marines on Iwo Jima." You might find it useful in your teaching. It is widely accepted as a reliable reference book by all the major universities. It was first published in 1998 and is still in print."

I'd be honored sir. I'm about to close on a home I'm building the Richmond area. It's about two weeks away from completion, I guess I'm downsizing. When I'm settled in I'll send you a PM with my address

Bob, I checked out your profile, you had to be 18 in 1944. And you were in Boot and off to Iwo the next year. Incredible

Would you mind if I posted your presence on LN? Not everyone reads all posts. I know several members who are history buffs would love to talk with you. An Iwo Marine is rare today

Never earned the title so I'll say "Fair winds and following seas" Bob

[usmc987332]

"By the way, if you can give me your address, I would conisider it an honor to send you a copy of my book, "The First Battalion of the 28th Marines on Iwo Jima." You might find it useful in your teaching. It is widely accepted as a reliable reference book by all the major universities. It was first published in 1998 and is still in print."

I'd be honored sir. I'm about to close on a home I'm building the Richmond area. It's about two weeks away from completion, I guess I'm downsizing. When I'm settled in I'll send you a PM with my address

Bob, I checked out your profile, you had to be 18 in 1944. And you were in Boot and off to Iwo the next year. Incredible

Would you mind if I posted your presence on LN? Not everyone reads all posts. I know several members who are history buffs would love to talk with you. An Iwo Marine is rare today

Never earned the title so I'll say "Fair winds and following seas" Bob

That last home is an exciting time. Kate and I went through the downsizing bit some four years ago. My health had deterioated to the point I could longer climb stairs or take care of our large yard, so we moved into 1,600 sq ft with no basement from 3,000 sq ft with a full basement where we had lived for 37 years. We never threw anything away, so we had a real problem. Unfortunately Kate was beginning to have serious health problems. Kate started having seizures, and with each seizure part of her brain was destroyed. The doctors tried everything known to man, but were unable to stop the siezures. Even with full time help, it eventually became impossible for to care for, and we moved her here to Great Oaks into the memory unit. I moved into the assisted living unit and was able to have my meals with her and spend my days with her. After nearly 59 years of marriage, I lost her last October. Kate was so much more than a wife. She was the mother of my children, friend and constant companion. I still miss her ver much. (Sorry, sometimes I just like to share my burdens.) I still have the house, but have decided I will stay here, so I'm getting it ready to go on the market.

I would appreciate your posting my presence on LN. We have sixteen men here. Most of them are WWII vets, and we get together about once a month. Also, I go to the VFW once a week for breakfast where the fellowship is good. About half the men are WWII vets, with a refreshing group of younger men.

I still spend a great deal of time on the computer. I am writing a historical novel for which I have pretty well completed my research. I am about 1/3 through putting the text together. This has been going on for nearly five years, so it will be a miracle if I complete the book. It will be a greater miracle if I get it published. However, I have made great strides during the last three months and McFarland has indicated they will be interested in being the publisher.

Yes, I was 18 when I went into the Corps, as were most of our line companies. I was still 18 on Iwo, and barely 20 when discharged.

I have had an extrmely good life and wouldn't change one day of it. Yes, there are some days I would not like to repeat.

[USNAviator]

". I moved into the assisted living unit and was able to have my meals with her and spend my days with her. After nearly 59 years of marriage, I lost her last October. Kate was so much more than a wife. She was the mother of my children, friend and constant companion. I still miss her ver much. (Sorry, sometimes I just like to share my burdens.) I still have the house, but have decided I will stay here, so I'm getting it ready to go on the market."

I understand completely. I've walked that road myself. Lorrie was 49 when she passed from breast cancer. And it's OK to take that pack off and talk it out

[bootlace15]

BoB,Just a quick note for you. My father was a proud member of Hogans Goats A company 1st Battalion 27th Regiment 5th Marine Division. My father was wounded 3 times on that God forsaken Island,having lost the use of his left hand. I believe he was hit by a Jap dum dum from a sniper. My father never ever talked of his time in hell. I was wounded in Viet Nam while on patrol. I'll never forget the look on his face when he came to visit me at St Albans Naval Hospital in Queens NY. Thats when I saw him as an old man for the first time.

I have a poem he left me about Iwo Jima written by Martin C. Towne PHN3 USNR who went in on the 8th wave February 19,1945 as a member of the beach party from the USS NAPA AP 157. I read it quite often and am so proud of all the Marines that served this country so proudly.

My father was a light machine gunner MOS 604. I was a radio man but my MOS was 0351 Anti tank assault. Thanks for serving.

[USNAviator]

Bob

I'm enclosing a link. It's for the documentary "To the Shores of Iwo Jima" Not sure if you've seen it

http://www.archive.org/details/iwojima

[JRHD72]

Hello again Bob:
Finally found the time to get around to expand upon my 1st posting to your question. I have been following the thread and find it very interesting.Here is a link to James Bradleys web site, http://www.iwojima.com/raising/index.htm Some info here about the 1st flag raising, I never knew.
I grew up around WWII Marines. One in particular would come to be like a second father to me. I was 5 when I first met this individual (1959). My ma owned a diner n this guy stopped in drunk outta his mind. Setting at the counter he was expounding upon the subject of his cheating wife n how he was gonna spill the bast..ds guts on the floor who she was running with. 9 years later this man married my aunt. My parents were friends of theirs n I got to know the man better. In time we became great friends. My brother Brian enlisted in 1960. So I had an immense interest in the Corps. The mans name is George W. (CORKY) Secor. He was with 1/24 as a machine gunner. Got shot threw both hands on Roi Namur. Never talked much about Saipan. But his most poignant statement to me was about Iwo. " I was on the island 19 days, crosssed it 19 times n then stepped on a fkn mine!" It was Nov. 1972. I was home on leave after boot. We were in his garage bull chitting and I started asking questions about his time in the Corps. He reached over to a bench and handed me a piece of shrapnel they pulled from his legs, after making the above comment. Somewhere along the line he was awarded a silver star. What battle I could not find out. I will expound upon George some more in another posting. He made a great impression on me and my future along with my older brother. If it weren't for Marine's like you and George we would probably be speaking a second language.
Semper Fi! BOB

[usmc987332]

BoB,Just a quick note for you. My father was a proud member of Hogans Goats A company 1st Battalion 27th Regiment 5th Marine Division. My father was wounded 3 times on that God forsaken Island,having lost the use of his left hand. I believe he was hit by a Jap dum dum from a sniper. My father never ever talked of his time in hell. I was wounded in Viet Nam while on patrol. I'll never forget the look on his face when he came to visit me at St Albans Naval Hospital in Queens NY. Thats when I saw him as an old man for the first time.

I have a poem he left me about Iwo Jima written by Martin C. Towne PHN3 USNR who went in on the 8th wave February 19,1945 as a member of the beach party from the USS NAPA AP 157. I read it quite often and am so proud of all the Marines that served this country so proudly.

My father was a light machine gunner MOS 604. I was a radio man but my MOS was 0351 Anti tank assault. Thanks for serving.

"Hogan's Goats" was no doubt his company's nickname. Their CO was probably a Captain Hogan. We were known as "Bobo's Bastard" after our CO Captain Dwayne "Bobo" Mears. He was mortally wounder on D-Day leading his troops across the narrow neck of the island.

I landed on the same beach and served with the 5th Shore Party until Feb. 25, when I joined B Company of the 28th as an ammo carrier for a machine gun squad. after surviving two squads, I became a rifleman.

After returning to Hiwaii, I became the first gunner of a machine gun squad before I ever fired a machine gun. ( My MOS was also 604) I served in this slot until December of 1945, when I was transferred into the 2nd Marine Division.

I collaborated with James Bradley back in the early 1990s when we were both working on our books. Our books were quite different. His was a story about the flag raisings and his father. Mine was the story of the 1st Bn of the 28th Marines. I remember when he was quite discourage because he could not find a publisher. Then he hired a literary agent and then, as they say, made millions.

[usmc987332]

Hello again Bob:
Finally found the time to get around to expand upon my 1st posting to your question. I have been following the thread and find it very interesting.Here is a link to James Bradleys web site, http://www.iwojima.com/raising/index.htm Some info here about the 1st flag raising, I never knew.
I grew up around WWII Marines. One in particular would come to be like a second father to me. I was 5 when I first met this individual (1959). My ma owned a diner n this guy stopped in drunk outta his mind. Setting at the counter he was expounding upon the subject of his cheating wife n how he was gonna spill the bast..ds guts on the floor who she was running with. 9 years later this man married my aunt. My parents were friends of theirs n I got to know the man better. In time we became great friends. My brother Brian enlisted in 1960. So I had an immense interest in the Corps. The mans name is George W. (CORKY) Secor. He was with 1/24 as a machine gunner. Got shot threw both hands on Roi Namur. Never talked much about Saipan. But his most poignant statement to me was about Iwo. " I was on the island 19 days, crosssed it 19 times n then stepped on a fkn mine!" It was Nov. 1972. I was home on leave after boot. We were in his garage bull chitting and I started asking questions about his time in the Corps. He reached over to a bench and handed me a piece of shrapnel they pulled from his legs, after making the above comment. Somewhere along the line he was awarded a silver star. What battle I could not find out. I will expound upon George some more in another posting. He made a great impression on me and my future along with my older brother. If it weren't for Marine's like you and George we would probably be speaking a second language.
Semper Fi! BOB

Thanks for your reply. I have not been in contact with James Bradley for a number of years. Back in the early 1990s we talked to each other almost daily for awhile. We were both doing research for our books at the time. I was in the 1st Bn of the 28th and his father was in the 2nd Bn of the 28th. His book, "Flags of Our Fathers." was about the two flag raisings and his father. Mine was the history of the 1st Bn of the 28th. Wish it had been the other way around.

[USNAviator]

Most interesting.....looking forward to reading your book Bob. I hope you continue to post here, share your thoughts and ideas.

BTW , where is Monroe GA? I have a squadron mate who lives in Kennasaw. Whenever my wife and I would drive down to Amelia Island, FL we'd detour and visit a spell