What does that photograph by Joe Rosenthal really Mean?

[usmc987332]

On February 23, Associated Press photographer Joe Rosenthal snapped a photograph of five Marines and one Sailor replacing a small standard with a larger standard. With the click of his lense, Joe Rosenthal captured. perhaps, the most famous photograph of the Twentieth Century. Even today, the sight on this photograph or one of the many monument brings the Marine Corps to mind. Even today, most people regard it as THE FLAG RAISING on Iwo Jima. Few people realize it is only a photograph of a non-event and not the first flag raising. However, it is the perfect photograph and represents the Marine Corps at its best. It was the first flag raising the brought all the cheers and celebration. Like the many Marines on Iwo Jima, I saw the first flag break the crest of Suribachi and not the flag which Joe Rosenthal photographed.

I say all this to ask the question: If it had been you, and you realized you had in your hands a photograph which had the possibility of raising millions of dollars through the sale of bonds, how would you have presented this photograph and its raisers to the American people?

[JRHD72]

Your bio says you where there. I sense a conflict of some sorts. Joe did not pick the photo out. He sent his role of film to be deveveloped out to the ships. The developers on the ship picked out that photo.

[bootlace15]

just a quick question. You state you graduated from boot camp in September of 1945,and The battle of Iwo Jima was Feb 19,1945 and finished March 26,1945,How could you say,I saw the first flag break the crest? Sometimes I get confused when people post dates..............

[USNAviator]

just a quick question. You state you graduated from boot camp in September of 1945,and The battle of Iwo Jima was Feb 19,1945 and finished March 26,1945,How could you say,I saw the first flag break the crest? Sometimes I get confused when people post dates..............

A little confusing to me as well. With all due respect Bob, given your age and all did you make a mistake on those numbers? You also state that you entered the Corps in 1944 and graduated boot in Sept 1945. Perhaps you could go back and rethink your profile?

V/R

Dan

[usmc987332]

A little confusing to me as well. With all due respect Bob, given your age and all did you make a mistake on those numbers? You also state that you entered the Corps in 1944 and graduated boot in Sept 1945. Perhaps you could go back and rethink your profile?

V/R

Dan

Ooops! What do you expect from a senile 84 year old man. In case you are unable to figure it out. I graduated from Boot Camp in September 1944. Thanks, I will fix.

By the way, please return and give your answer to my question. I think it is a valid question and the question in no way reflects my feeling. You might be surprised at what I think or feel.

Bob Allen
B129

[usmc987332]

Your bio says you where there. I sense a conflict of some sorts. Joe did not pick the photo out. He sent his role of film to be deveveloped out to the ships. The developers on the ship picked out that photo.

No, no conflict, just what I think is a valid question. Perhaps you might read Rosenthal's dispatch from Guam concerning the flag raising. Basically, he acknowledged an earlier "event" and did not refer to it as an earlier flag raising. But that is not really important.

I landed as a replacement with the 31st Replacement Draft and served four days on Red Beach with the 5th Shore Party. I had just come forward with 7other men to become a streacher bearer, but wound up as an ammon carrier with a machine gun squad in B Co, 28th Marines.

There has been much criticism in the way the original flag raisers were treated in the early days. The background I presented, I think, presents fairly the way it happened. I am truly interested how the Marines of today feel about how the fact that Rosenthal's picture was not of the original flag raising. How about help and give me your answer to the question.

By the way, if you could visit me in my apartment, you would have an understanding of my feelings toward Rosenthal's master piece. I am seeking no controversy, but the answer to simple question from you and others. Again, I have no conflict, but a desire to find out how you and other Marines of today would have dealt with the situation as it unfolded. Incidentally, among my most prized posessions is a phorograph distributed to us when we returned to Hiwaii.

At a later date, i will relate my feelings if you wish, but at this time, I would like to be neutral.

Bob Allen
B128

[USNAviator]

"I say all this to ask the question: If it had been you, and you realized you had in your hands a photograph which had the possibility of raising millions of dollars through the sale of bonds, how would you have presented this photograph and its raisers to the American people?"

Bob

That's an interesting question. From what I've read and I think it was commented on in an earlier post, the control of the photo was out of Mr. Rosenthal's hands

Politics, fund raising aside. I would have told the truth.That the second flag raising was not what the Marines on Iwo celebrated.

In my opinion, Gagnon, Bradley and Hayes were exploited, not by the Corps but the White House, Congress and the Dept of the Treasury. I'm not sure which bond drive number they were on but they were used mainly to raise money.

To me the photo itself is incredible. It shows what the Corps is all about, teamwork , brotherhood and duty. Look closely at their legs, they are all in step. The last man in the line is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian, you can see both of his hands reaching up to be there if the standard falls. Incredible!

Yes Bob, I'm interested in your thoughts on this topic, after all you initiated the post and you were there on Iwo. BTW thank you for your service Marine

[usmc987332]

"I say all this to ask the question: If it had been you, and you realized you had in your hands a photograph which had the possibility of raising millions of dollars through the sale of bonds, how would you have presented this photograph and its raisers to the American people?"

Bob

That's an interesting question. From what I've read and I think it was commented on in an earlier post, the control of the photo was out of Mr. Rosenthal's hands

Politics, fund raising aside. I would have told the truth.That the second flag raising was not what the Marines on Iwo celebrated.

In my opinion, Gagnon, Bradley and Hayes were exploited, not by the Corps but the White House, Congress and the Dept of the Treasury. I'm not sure which bond drive number they were on but they were used mainly to raise money.

To me the photo itself is incredible. It shows what the Corps is all about, teamwork , brotherhood and duty. Look closely at their legs, they are all in step. The last man in the line is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian, you can see both of his hands reaching up to be there if the standard falls. Incredible!

Yes Bob, I'm interested in your thoughts on this topic, after all you initiated the post and you were there on Iwo. BTW thank you for your service Marine

Thanks for your reply and well put.

Bob Allen
B128

[usmc987332]

"I say all this to ask the question: If it had been you, and you realized you had in your hands a photograph which had the possibility of raising millions of dollars through the sale of bonds, how would you have presented this photograph and its raisers to the American people?"

Bob

That's an interesting question. From what I've read and I think it was commented on in an earlier post, the control of the photo was out of Mr. Rosenthal's hands

Politics, fund raising aside. I would have told the truth.That the second flag raising was not what the Marines on Iwo celebrated.

In my opinion, Gagnon, Bradley and Hayes were exploited, not by the Corps but the White House, Congress and the Dept of the Treasury. I'm not sure which bond drive number they were on but they were used mainly to raise money.

To me the photo itself is incredible. It shows what the Corps is all about, teamwork , brotherhood and duty. Look closely at their legs, they are all in step. The last man in the line is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian, you can see both of his hands reaching up to be there if the standard falls. Incredible!

Yes Bob, I'm interested in your thoughts on this topic, after all you initiated the post and you were there on Iwo. BTW thank you for your service Marine

This subject doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I might as well express my feelings.

In the beginning there was no intent for a cover-up. However, when the photograph was selected for the 7th War Bond, it was advantageous for the photograph to known as THE ORIGINAL FLAG RAISING. I do know there was a real cover up. We were all aware of the fact that the photograph was of the second flag raising. We were allowed to write home about it, and it was not censored. However, when our 2nd edition of the Spearhead (magazine) came out in the summer of 45, the editor was very careful not mention a second flag raising. The cover was a enlarged copy of Rosenthal's photograph. The flag raising was mentioned briefly in the magazine with another photograph of the larger flag. It does not mention two flag raisings.

The June edition of the Leatherneck magazine had the same photograph on its cover. However, the flag raising is not mentioned in the magazine.

As I mentioned earlier, when Rosenthal sent a dispatch from Guam surrounding the events taking place at the time of his photographs, he mentioned there was an earlier event, but did not mentioned that was a flag raising. I am assuming this dispatch was sent some time after he sent his photographs.

I am quite certain the three men on the tour were under instructions not to mentioned that there were two flag raisings.

Some Marines who were looking for glory were hurt. In fact, the First Platoon of B Company planted a flag on the beach on D Day. Men from the same platoon were the first men to cross the island and cut Suribachi off from the rest of the island. They would probably have received more publicity had it not been for the photograph.

The original flag raisers felt they had been deprived of their glory. They had their's when their flag went up.

By 1950 the complete story was well publicized. Of course, by that time most people had lost interest in the event, and still assumed there was only one flag raising.

As for me, if I had been my responsibility to make the decision, I think I would have done exactly what they did.

Before you toss any rocks, let me say that if it had been my responsibility to order the fire bombing of Japan and drop the atomic bombs, I would probably have refused to order these atrtacks.. I would have been wrong.

Bob Allen,
B128

[USNAviator]

This subject doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I might as well express my feelings.

In the beginning there was no intent for a cover-up. However, when the photograph was selected for the 7th War Bond, it was advantageous for the photograph to known as THE ORIGINAL FLAG RAISING. I do know there was a real cover up. We were all aware of the fact that the photograph was of the second flag raising. We were allowed to write home about it, and it was not censored. However, when our 2nd edition of the Spearhead (magazine) came out in the summer of 45, the editor was very careful not mention a second flag raising. The cover was a enlarged copy of Rosenthal's photograph. The flag raising was mentioned briefly in the magazine with another photograph of the larger flag. It does not mention two flag raisings.

The June edition of the Leatherneck magazine had the same photograph on its cover. However, the flag raising is not mentioned in the magazine.

As I mentioned earlier, when Rosenthal sent a dispatch from Guam surrounding the events taking place at the time of his photographs, he mentioned there was an earlier event, but did not mentioned that was a flag raising. I am assuming this dispatch was sent some time after he sent his photographs.

I am quite certain the three men on the tour were under instructions not to mentioned that there were two flag raisings.

Some Marines who were looking for glory were hurt. In fact, the First Platoon of B Company planted a flag on the beach on D Day. Men from the same platoon were the first men to cross the island and cut Suribachi off from the rest of the island. They would probably have received more publicity had it not been for the photograph.

The original flag raisers felt they had been deprived of their glory. They had their's when their flag went up.

By 1950 the complete story was well publicized. Of course, by that time most people had lost interest in the event, and still assumed there was only one flag raising.

As for me, if I had been my responsibility to make the decision, I think I would have done exactly what they did.

Before you toss any rocks, let me say that if it had been my responsibility to order the fire bombing of Japan and drop the atomic bombs, I would probably have refused to order these atrtacks.. I would have been wrong.

Bob Allen,
B128

Bob

Thank you sir for your response. May I ask about your opinion re. the "three"? Think they were exploited? And thank you for informing me of the Bond drive number, I thought it was 5 or 6 and hell you're 84 and I'm 56...lol. You have one hell of a memory

Did your fellow Marines at the time think the second flag raising was a bunch of crap? A Cluster PR move? Did you ever meet any of the original flag raisers?

Your opinions about fire bombings and the A Bomb are noted and respected. I teach history and to meet a survivor of Iwo at this late date would to me be akin to perhaps meeting a survivor of Pickets Charge in the early 1900's

One final point sir,, why did you feel the need to bring this up? If it's personal, no need to respond

V/R

Cmdr Dan O'Shea

[The DUKE]

Well old salt, way before my time but Ill throw down some thoughts if its not to offensive.
I joined mainly on account of my uncle ,
he was USMC hard core and I thought that,
that was just about as smart as it gets.
I always looked at that pic and the statue and thought,
that's what it means to be a real man,
doing what you have to do for your king and country,
I joined and fought and served with that in mind,
I cannot account for the intention of those who did or didn't exploit the flag raisers or those who actually did it but didn't get the glory,
I cannot say I would have done it any different myself,
what a rallying point though eh?
Can you imagine the Marines that have been turned out due to that very picture.
I was one, there had to be millions more who thought along the same lines as myself. I was so proud of that photo, they were "MARINES",
I bought the line, hook line and sinker,
always have always will,
USMC through and through.
I also don't know why you brought it up,
but it sounds to me like you have some reservations about just what went down and how it went down,
I'm sorry for that,
if it dwells in your mind at this late date in the game.
I hope sincerely that its not a bother to you of sorts.
I am pleased to know you fought and served our nation in the United States Marine Corps.
I thank you for your service.

[USNAviator]

"I also don't know why you brought it up,
but it sounds to me like you have some reservations about just what went down and how it went down,
I'm sorry for that,"

Good response!! Why now? Why this subject? What's going on Bob?

[usmc987332]

Well old salt, way before my time but Ill throw down some thoughts if its not to offensive.
I joined mainly on account of my uncle ,
he was USMC hard core and I thought that,
that was just about as smart as it gets.
I always looked at that pic and the statue and thought,
that's what it means to be a real man,
doing what you have to do for your king and country,
I joined and fought and served with that in mind,
I cannot account for the intention of those who did or didn't exploit the flag raisers or those who actually did it but didn't get the glory,
I cannot say I would have done it any different myself,
what a rallying point though eh?
Can you imagine the Marines that have been turned out due to that very picture.
I was one, there had to be millions more who thought along the same lines as myself. I was so proud of that photo, they were "MARINES",
I bought the line, hook line and sinker,
always have always will,
USMC through and through.
I also don't know why you brought it up,
but it sounds to me like you have some reservations about just what went down and how it went down,
I'm sorry for that,
if it dwells in your mind at this late date in the game.
I hope sincerely that its not a bother to you of sorts.
I am pleased to know you fought and served our nation in the United States Marine Corps.
I thank you for your service.

Duke,

I think I answered most of your questions in my post to the Commander.

Incidentally, my family is not all Corps our and out.

I have a son-in-law who is a colonel in the Texas National Guard. He has done tours of duty in Korea (six months), Bosnia (one year) and Iraq (one year). He completed War College this spring and is the CO of the 56th Brigade. In private life he is a Vice President with a large insurance company. Despite all that, he is OK and a big admirer of the Corps.

Bob Allen
B128

[usmc987332]

"I also don't know why you brought it up,
but it sounds to me like you have some reservations about just what went down and how it went down,
I'm sorry for that,"

Good response!! Why now? Why this subject? What's going on Bob?

Twice I have posted a reply to you, but they appear not to have gone through. Let me know if received those posts.

Bob Allen
B128

[usmc987332]

I have a grandson who recently graduated from Boot at PI and two more grandsons who plan to enter the Corps next year. (one as a grunt and the other one through OCS. Chris (the one already in the Corps) is quite amazed at how little his buddies know about the flag raising. Many of them think it was a posed picture. I have just been wondering what the new generation thinks about the Rosenthal picture. As for me, I am completely gung ho.

If I am not boring you, I will answer your earlier questions and give you an insight of who I really am.

By the way, I have four grandsons and three are going to be Marines. Not a bad score. The fourth one is hoping to go to West Point. His father recently graduated War College and is the Commander of the 56th Brigade. I don't think I will win that one.