Are the numbers correct for non-03xx Selection for Marsoc?

[rheinmark187]

Okay I'm asking this question because someone I know put his package in for Marsoc, got accepted for the initial selection and assesement phase and ended up NOT being selected. So he was an officer, NON-infantry except for his time as a reserve 0311 in college. In fact, his MOS was probably as far away from Infantry as you can get. He did a tour in support of counter-terrorism in Africa and another on a small FOB in support of OEF.

Good guy, in outstanding physical shape, well educated. He ends up breaking his foot but that didn't seem to make a difference in him not being selected. Okay, an officer who doesn't get selected just blew the last 12 months or so plotting his career path right? What about enlisted people? I read somewhere that selection for POG's (I'm lumping in Corpsmen and Radio Operators with the grunts) is under 10%.

That's not really good for a command that needs to meet a manning requirement and fight a global campaign. The U.S. Navy SEALS instituted mandatory pre-BUDS training and conditioning which led to a large jump in the size of their graduating classes.

Does Marsoc have this? If not, shouldn't this be put in place? Especially considering the low rates of selection for POG's?

[00101010]

I read somewhere that selection for POG's (I'm lumping in Corpsmen and Radio Operators with the grunts) is under 10%.

There's your problem. Could you reproduce this source?

[rheinmark187]

Unfortunately I cannot. I believe it was on strategypages.com but the thread has been removed from archives.

[rheinmark187]

http://www.enctoday.com/articles/scr...amp-teams.html
This isn't the page, but it's relatively recent and it says there's a 56% attrition rate. That's much higher than the sub 10% I claimed in my OP. But that doesn't separate infantry Marines from non-infantry Marines. It does say that emphasis is put on selecting Infantry Marines though.

I'll check back in if if I can find that thread, but right now I need to get ready for work.

[00101010]

Yep, I have seen that same article, not a ton of information in there.

I will let you know in Sept, that is when I go to A&S.

[LandsNGrooves]

I heard straight from a MSOS Instructor that they mostly take 03's and comm guys. Keyword is MOSTLY.

[rheinmark187]

I heard straight from a MSOS Instructor that they mostly take 03's and comm guys. Keyword is MOSTLY.

And that makes a lot of sense obviously. But they are getting rid of a lot of non-infantrymen who could be good candidates I'll bet. If the number really is around 10% shouldn't they have a mandatory pre-selection conditioning and preparation course to bring that number up? The Navy SEALS are graduating nearly 40% and SF is graduating nearly 50% due to improvements made.

I'm just thinking back to when I was in MCT and the training was so half-assed that the instructors apologized to us. For some people, that would be the last dedicated rifelman training they would get before Iraq and Afghanistan and MEU workups, which really aren't that thorough. Granted MCT has been expanded and improved since I went through in early 2001, but is it enough? Judging from what I've read about selection, no.

I remember when I took my Recon indoc and the HQ company Gunny took us aside afterward and interviewed us. Basically I would have to work for them in my MOS and learn from osmosis until the end of my contract then go to RIP because the non-grunts would be so far behind the power curve in BRC we'd be nearly a guaranteed fail.

Now think of what it must be like for folks trying out for MARSOC CSO positions. It's already competitive right? Obviously the A&S is all classified or kept very close to the chest, but if they are looking for mostly infantry then part of the A&S has got to be based around their knowledge as a rifleman right?

[rheinmark187]

http://www.enctoday.com/articles/scr...amp-teams.html
This isn't the page, but it's relatively recent and it says there's a 56% attrition rate. That's much higher than the sub 10% I claimed in my OP. But that doesn't separate infantry Marines from non-infantry Marines. It does say that emphasis is put on selecting Infantry Marines though.

I'll check back in if if I can find that thread, but right now I need to get ready for work.

This is very poorly worded. I claimed that attrition rate for POG's was around 90%, due to DoR, Medical and failure to be selected. I have not been able to produce the thread or MSOS data to back that up, yet.

This link says the overall attrition rate is 56% but does not break down attrition by infantry and non-infantry. I supplied it because it's really the best, most recent evidence I could find and it does make it seem possible that non-infantry attrition could be as high as 90%.

[LandsNGrooves]

I remember when I took my Recon indoc and the HQ company Gunny took us aside afterward and interviewed us. Basically I would have to work for them in my MOS and learn from osmosis until the end of my contract then go to RIP because the non-grunts would be so far behind the power curve in BRC we'd be nearly a guaranteed fail.

Now think of what it must be like for folks trying out for MARSOC CSO positions. It's already competitive right? Obviously the A&S is all classified or kept very close to the chest, but if they are looking for mostly infantry then part of the A&S has got to be based around their knowledge as a rifleman right?

Really the only people that know the exact roadmap to A&S are MSOS themselves. Some ruckruns are unknown time, unknown distance. .I was told most of their drops are from the shooting package on things like guys get fudged by their ambiselectors on the rifles. Most really like running the MEUSOC pistol(ie m1911a1).

[00101010]

If the number really is around 10% shouldn't they have a mandatory pre-selection conditioning and preparation course to bring that number up? The Navy SEALS are graduating nearly 40% and SF is graduating nearly 50% due to improvements made.

MARSOC is so young, they are still figuring out the BMOS/open/closed loop situation right now. They are able to be picky when it comes to selection; if there are enough guys making it on their own, then why provide specialized pre-training. As the community grows into something more like Army SF and Navy SEALS, they might then start looking into something like that. *disclaimer* I realized after reading this that I am speaking as some sort of SME, I am not! I am just giving my opinion and could VERY easily be wrong.

I'm just thinking back to when I was in MCT and the training was so half-assed that the instructors apologized to us. For some people, that would be the last dedicated rifelman training they would get before Iraq and Afghanistan and MEU workups, which really aren't that thorough. Granted MCT has been expanded and improved since I went through in early 2001, but is it enough? Judging from what I've read about selection, no.

I don't see what this really has to do with MARSOC. SOI is also not a good training ground for SOCOM. It is not the point of either of the two schools. The MARSOC recruiter I am working with gave me a lot of paperwork, including a "recommended" training schedule. There is your pre-training right there; "Here is what you should do to make it, now go and do it!" It is a 5 week program that you are to do on your own, he HIGHLY recommended I do it as I think the number he threw at me was that 98% of those that actually follow it make it (by make it I am guessing he meant complete the course, not actually get selected).

Now think of what it must be like for folks trying out for MARSOC CSO positions. It's already competitive right? Obviously the A&S is all classified or kept very close to the chest, but if they are looking for mostly infantry then part of the A&S has got to be based around their knowledge as a rifleman right?

I was told to study my land nav, a lot; that is about it as far as knowledge goes. Remember though, the point of A&S is not to be a SF guy, but to demonstrate the mental and physical capacity to handle the job.

[LandsNGrooves]

I'm just thinking back to when I was in MCT and the training was so half-assed that the instructors apologized to us. For some people, that would be the last dedicated rifelman training they would get before Iraq and Afghanistan and MEU workups, which really aren't that thorough. Granted MCT has been expanded and improved since I went through in early 2001, but is it enough? Judging from what I've read about selection, no.

NO! I went thru MCT a year ago, and for me MCT rifle wise was a refresher bc I shot AR's and took carbine classes before I ever enlisted, so I just had to get used to the ACOG. It's good training, just not enough. It's takes alot of reps fror someone to be able to manipulate a weapons under real stress.

FFW a year later and I just went thru my first grass week in the fleet this week. We dry ran some speed reloads and I stopped for one, and watch the whole line reload and 65% of the "shooters" had the rifle at there stomach during the act. CRINGE. I noticed my edges are getting dull, and I live in the barracks so my rifles stay at home. Sad to say, but outside of the 03 world, an alarming number of Marines feel range week is just one more thing in the way of endless emails, roster making and playing power point commando.

For anybody looking to go Recon or Marsoc to be a REAL warfighter, check this DVD out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJQTpTljLz8
Its an advanced carbine course that focuses on Hyper violent CQB shooting and pistol transitions similer to what Marsoc runs and Travis is former ForceR.

[rheinmark187]

MARSOC is so young, they are still figuring out the BMOS/open/closed loop situation right now. They are able to be picky when it comes to selection; if there are enough guys making it on their own, then why provide specialized pre-training. As the community grows into something more like Army SF and Navy SEALS, they might then start looking into something like that. *disclaimer* I realized after reading this that I am speaking as some sort of SME, I am not! I am just giving my opinion and could VERY easily be wrong.



I don't see what this really has to do with MARSOC. SOI is also not a good training ground for SOCOM. It is not the point of either of the two schools. The MARSOC recruiter I am working with gave me a lot of paperwork, including a "recommended" training schedule. There is your pre-training right there; "Here is what you should do to make it, now go and do it!" It is a 5 week program that you are to do on your own, he HIGHLY recommended I do it as I think the number he threw at me was that 98% of those that actually follow it make it (by make it I am guessing he meant complete the course, not actually get selected).


I was told to study my land nav, a lot; that is about it as far as knowledge goes. Remember though, the point of A&S is not to be a SF guy, but to demonstrate the mental and physical capacity to handle the job.

See that's the truth right there, it's a small organization right now and they can afford to be choosy. They want infantrymen, but if there's a POG out there who's adaptable enough, we want to give him a chance too.


I brought MCT up because I wanted to show how behind the power curve most of the non-infantry MOS's are leaving the gates. When it comes to trying out for something like Marsoc, it becomes even more difficult. I'm wondering what percentage of the non-selected candidates are allowed to apply again at a later date?

[00101010]

I'm wondering what percentage of the non-selected candidates are allowed to apply again at a later date?

I would think that mostly POGs would fall into that category; as in, "You were good, we could really use you in MARSOC, just not at this time." Is that what they told your friend?

What we need is someone that actually knows. Preferably a POG that is a CSO, but I assume they are all a little busy training to see this.

[rheinmark187]

I have no idea what category he was in, but he won't be able to try for a second time because of where he is at in his career.

[00101010]

There are other paths though, myself for example, I have orders to MSOSG as sort of a backup plan to becoming a CSO (I did this on a recommendation from a MARSOC recruiter "just in case"). I will check in a little more then a month before I go to A&S, and if I am not selected I could still end up at one of the BNs, just not as a CSO. (don't know what the hell I would be, as long as I would be in a fight somewhere)