Women back from combat face cold reality

[slug]

We're talking about two rolls here for women in the Corps, one involves trigger pulling and subsequently being in harms way, and the other not.

Again, when it comes to the first point, it is less because of the women and more because of the men. Tell me, you see one of your brother cut down, shredded, in pieces, you're going to be shaken up but you can still operate and do your job. But you see a woman cut down, it will destroy any honorable man who understands that men are here to protect women, not put them in harms way. It feels like you failed at your duty as a man, not just at a simple mission or job.

I've never said that there are not fully capable women, mentally and physically, who can handle what combat has to throw at you, but they are rare amongst them. We are wired differently.

Who cares if I am new or not, and you are correct, I do not work with WM, I'm in a Victor unit. But this is my opinion on the matter, and has been. Women do not belong anywhere in purposeful danger, and any man who deliberately places women in such a position is not a man.

[Isrowei]

I totally agree with you.....but how do you find out if the person is competant? Im not saying you have to yell or talk dirty....i never said that....I just come from a "keep an in house mentality." I never believed in paperwork or ratting someone out....bc how does that build trust within the unit if your always having to watch your own back? and Im glad the companies I was with and my Gunnys and LTs all believed the same way......

I'd say you find out how competent someone is by watching how they do their job. If they do it well, they're fine. If not, they need training.

Taking care of business in-house is fine. But if you think an NCO has never made a mistake, you're dead wrong. If an NCO is screwing up, and especially being vindictive about it... I would want to know. Immediately. I would expect that if my subordinate leaders could not correct that Marine, they would notify me and get my involvement. If I found an NCO was covering or excusing that behavior, I would deal with them both. And that is all "in-house".

If you're doing the right thing, the right way, and for the right reasons... why would you ever need to worry about "your back"? If you're not...

Plus you might have a great stateside Marine....you think he is the perfect Marine, and then he might buckle under the pressure of war.....you never know.....So that is why, all the way from boot camp to your unit (combat units I would say), you hold that tight knit tradition.....yelling at a Marine is sometimes not just to yell....its to make a situation chaotic and see how that Marine will deal with the pressure....same reason during training we have live fire in obstacle courses and a bunch of instructors yelling.....once again to see how Marines deal with the pressure....As a "boot" yea I was hazed, but I was also taught, and guided...My NCOs wanted to see if i would follow orders and carry them out to my best ability, and I would trust them not to put me in a situation that they didnt think was the right thing....and when I picked up NCO it was vice versa....I needed to trust my men would be like Aye Sgt and do it for the great good of our PLT....and not just be looking our for themselves....I dont care if it was about getting yelled at, missing sleep, etc etc...sometimes you need to suck it up and just do you job bc its not about yourself...its about the Marine Next to you...and if everyone Marine had that mentality, then every Marine of Mine comes home....and then I did my job. And I know, my Marines will thank me forever...

I missed how this is different for women as it is for men? Just because our current rules do not allow women in the infantry... tight knit teamwork and training obviously contribute to mission success.

Also, since we are talking men and women, it seems that you are inferring that you cannot yell at female Marines. I would disagree with this.

And I tell you sir, as a Plt Sgt....If I had a Marine come to me from another squad or plt and heard he reported somebody for a charge I thought was weak.....you better believe I am not going to want him in my PLT or any of my squads.....bc honestly I would rather find out who can handle the stress and pressure and still carry out orders now, in training, rather than out in the battlefield where that Marine can have me or my brothers killed......Thats why I love the Marine Corps.....we actually weed out the weakest links.....SemperFi!

Well, I would say if the charge was upheld, do you place yourself as the sole judge of what is "weak" vs "hard"?

If you choose to allow yourself to be hazed, does that make you better than a Marine who decides that walking around with two severely bruised legs is for the birds?

Nothing says you can't make training tough and realistic for both men and women. Take SERES school for example. Cold and hunger are no respector of persons. Neither are captors. In fact, training as you are going to perform for the real thing is precisely what the Commandant and every other Marine leader has in mind for our Marines.

I never drew a correlation between someone calling my mother a ***** and assaulting a house. I don't understand how beating my legs to a bloody pulp or bruising the muscle tissue of my bicep to the point of damage made me shoot better or more accurate, or taught me any discipline, or respect for authority. On the contrary, I did it because I wanted to fit in. Strangely, that's also the reason kids do drugs in school. Because the people they respect say they should, and they want to be accepted. It does not better them.

Now before you get blustery and defensive, understand that I went through it too. I feel a certain sense of pride and camaraderie with my friends who were there with me... similar to the times we went out in foreign ports and had wild good times. It's a method of bonding in friendship through shared experiences. Nothing more.

Think about this long and hard before you respond with something defensive. Marines do bond with trust and friendship and mutual respect for learned skill without ever enduring one element of hazing. Through applied training in the tactics and techniques in realistic environments, they learn razor-sharp instincts and are just as effective... or more effective than Marines who trained in the glory days of hazing 10-15 years ago.

Simply put, there is NO argument that can sustain that hazing and the like produces better, more capable fighting individuals. None.

Back to the original topic of men vs women. What is good training tactics for a man, should be good training tactics for a woman, because good training should be good Marine training.

In interpersonal dealings, that changes somewhat as we lead individual Marines and not soulless entities. Don't confuse one for the other. We train as units. We lead Marines. When a male Marine has a problem at home with his wife, you don't send the whole platoon to marriage counselling. When a female Marine is having trouble with the on-base child care, you don't order the whole platoon to have a sit-down with the MCCS care providers to resolve it. So unless the issue presented by a Marine represents a systemic problem throughout the unit (such as... bust one Marine for drugs and find out 40% of the platoon is using and dealing) rarely does fixing the problem involve unilateral action for the whole unit.

Now, dealing with a disrespectful, arrogant, or just lazy Marine is an entirely different issue than dealing with a Marine who is having marriage issues. The former might be dealt with an a**-chewing and some EMI. The latter needs counsel, advice, support, and possibly some support for that spouse as well. Your leadership style changes based on the issue and the person you are dealing with.

As for weeding out the weakest links, we absolutely do. By consistently and effectively upholding and enforcing the Marine Corps standards through all levels leadership, we will identify and remove all those who fail to meet the required standard.

[Isrowei]

We're talking about two rolls here for women in the Corps, one involves trigger pulling and subsequently being in harms way, and the other not.

Again, when it comes to the first point, it is less because of the women and more because of the men. Tell me, you see one of your brother cut down, shredded, in pieces, you're going to be shaken up but you can still operate and do your job. But you see a woman cut down, it will destroy any honorable man who understands that men are here to protect women, not put them in harms way. It feels like you failed at your duty as a man, not just at a simple mission or job.

I've never said that there are not fully capable women, mentally and physically, who can handle what combat has to throw at you, but they are rare amongst them. We are wired differently.

Who cares if I am new or not, and you are correct, I do not work with WM, I'm in a Victor unit. But this is my opinion on the matter, and has been. Women do not belong anywhere in purposeful danger, and any man who deliberately places women in such a position is not a man.

On a personal level, it is admirable that you think so.

On a professional level, the Marine Corps does not agree with you. Your mission, your duty is the same regardless of whether it was a man or women who is beside you.

You won't get to choose who is running that convoy you're on. Or who is in the up-gun providing suppressive fire. Or who is flying that close-air support mission for you.

After over eight years of sustained combat operations in which female warfighters have been fully integrated in every area of the battlefield, I'd say that your fears are minimal at best. Marines are doing what Marines do best. Wining battles. Regardless of gender.

[ForeverMarine]

I'd say you find out how competent someone is by watching how they do their job. If they do it well, they're fine. If not, they need training.

I know a RO that went to iraq that was thought to be one of our so called "best guys".....while he was over their he buckled under the pressure, made a mistake with relaying coordinates over ther radio and had half its plt killed....

I was fairly new to the unit....so I never saw how he reacted in high stress situations.....but after being there, i realized he was never placed in a high tense situation....and I garuntee that was the mistake....So you saying you can tell watching how they do their job.....well im sorry...but their is a difference on how well you do your job stateside and how well you do your job when the bullets are flying and bombs are hittin the deck......And I hate the word hazing....sorry but I think it should be banned....if your beating the **** out of your guys than ok....charge him....but if your simply yelling.....give me a freakin break....are you serious? and about blood stripes.....its tradition.....and if you dont want to be apart of the tradition...you should of never joined the corps....

As for as women in combat.....I agree with Wookie and Slug.....Not saying their is not any women out their that can handle combat....I know their are....but honestly....the majority of them cant....Marine or Not....And how in the other tread about Gays in the Marines....people can say no and if yes only if they are in admin....but if Marines are say No to women....they are wrong.....

And you talk about mission....Yes every Marine has a basic Mission everyday to uphold the standards of the Corps....Proper Haircut, Shave, etc etc....but when it comes to a Combat Unit and a Support Units....sorry the mission are not the same.....

But like I said...ill give some women credit...I know their are some hardcore Women Marines that can run circles around men...but again that number is few and far between....and it does not make it right MORALLY when it comes to combat....Women should not be in combat units...

[Isrowei]

I hope you are reading my posts as closely as I am yours. There are several issues being touched on and it seems to me you are blurring the lines rather harshly between them when they are separate and distinct issues.

First: Yelling.

Yelling is not necessarily hazing. In fact, I would say it would almost always have to be accompanied by more action in order to qualify as hazing.

Raising one's voice is a tool for many situations.

Second: Hazing.

Hazing can be many things, but almost certainly some activities hailed as "tradition" qualify. Causing bodily harm or forcing a person to drink till they have alcohol poisoning is most certainly hazing. When "tradition" crosses the line to harm... no amount of "legacy" is worth damaging one Marine.

You may disagree, and that is your personal right. But I'm backed by the Marine Corps Order. What is your authority?

Third: Evaluation of one's potential.

If that RO had been properly placed in "high tension" environments before actual combat, perhaps his abilities would have been more clearly known.

The reverse is almost certainly true that individuals placed in stressful, hazed environments prior to combat STILL crack under the pressure. The axiom that no one knows how they will react under fire is still true. Training only greatly increases the liklihood that you will react as you should.

Fourth: Mission.

Sure, all specific missions are different depending on what your job is. But we're all Marines. And Marines are riflemen and rifle platoon commanders first. Regardless of gender. And with today's battlefield that doesn't draw clear front lines... all areas are the engagement areas. So whether you are supply, or comm, or engineers, or infantry... you can find yourself under attack, having to apply the basics of warfare.

Lastly: Women in the Marine Corps.

As I mentioned, you may think of women have an innate need for protection and it is a man's job to protect them.

The Corps does not agree with you. Period.

The Corps trains that each Marine has an innate need for protection and it is a fellow Marine's job to provide that protection and accomplish the mission.

[ForeverMarine]

I did read everything you have said in previous messages...and it just seemed, to me, like you would have a thought but with no argument....but this message you hit it on the nail.....

I totally agree with your eval....before you said "you could tell about a Marine just by watching a them do their job....now your saying that training and high tense situations is a better way to see the likelihood of someone cracking under pressure (hints war).....

Which is what I was saying before...And I totally agree with you, that no one knows until they are put in the real situation....but like I Said I would rather simulate the situation in training..than just trust someone ability on how much they know their job with no training...

Also I never heard of a tradition to make a Marine Drink until they have alcohol poisoning....but when I got my blood stripes....I was on ship....so I got to sleep it off all day for a couple weeks till we got to where we were going....And I saw some Marines that showed up for PT and our Gunny be like, go back to the barracks and take a 72.....does that tradition suck and cause harm? maybe, but it does not kill anyone...and Marines police their own....so its all taken care of.....

And also just a question.....Every thing anyone says you come back with how the MArine Corps see things.....I think we all know how the MArines Corps see things...but this forum is basically for our opinion....and really get to know eachother.....I read back on all your messages really... Im still trying to figure out your personal opinion? I would love to hear how you feel honestly, rather than how the MArine Corps feels....

[Marine1391]

In my experiences, I have been trained and treated just as harshly as any other Marine. I don't get mad at a Sgt. if he tells me I'm "****ing retarded" or if he makes me do extra work, because I know that everyone has to take extra heat or do some extra work sometimes. I never see myself as a woman Marine when I'm in uniform, I see myself as a Marine. I do what everyone else does and act how everyone else acts. The only problems I have seen are with the women who want to be treated like women. Those types come around every once in a while, and we have our ways of phasing them out eventually. I understand that when I'm on a date, I can be treated like a woman, but at work, I want to be treated like a Marine.

I understand that there will always be guys like Slug who claim that "women need to be protected and that it's the job of men to keep them out of harm". I know that a lot of men honestly feel that way, because they were taught to. Believe me, I never used to think that it was right for women to even join the military. I had a very conservative upbringing, and I was very oppressive in my thinking. However, once I grew up, I realized that I shouldn't be kept from doing what I really wanted to do simply because I was born female. I love the Marine Corps, and I know that it's where I'm meant to be. I don't think that it's the job of men to protect me, I think that it's the job of people to look out for each other.
Honestly, I think that a lot of guys are just insecure about their masculinity and don't want women in the Marines because they feel that it takes something away from their image. Afterall, if I'm capable of doing everything that you're doing, then that doesn't make you so tough anymore, does it? I've met a lot of guys who even admit to that. I think it's stupid though. Who cares about being a tough man. It should be enough to be considered a tough person. And that's what Marines are.
So, I'm sorry if my presence makes you feel uncomfortable or insignificant, but I'm not going anywhere. A lot of the old school guys don't understand that you can't keep someone from doing something just because of their gender, but luckily the new generation understands better.

[ForeverMarine]

Hey Marine1391.....I think slug was just going about Morally, the man is suppose to protect the women.....that is how it has always been...and if you like it or not....thats the way the MArine Corps still is.....Maybe they wont say it like that....but they do by certian restrictions....like you cant be a 0311 and etc...and that speaks for itself.....

and two things you said that I glad you brought up:
1)Women that join the Marine Corps that still want to be treated like a Woman, rather than a Marine...

.......That is what I have been talking about..and How I thought it was bullsh*t that I had a friend get busted all the way down from Sgt bc he yelled at a WM using bad language....but again, its nothing he would not have said to a male marine....

2) You think alot of guys are insecure and you even heard some male Marines admit it....and the fact that women marines think they can do everything male marines can.....

......no offense but I doubt the Marines that admitted that come from a victor unit....I would like to know what duty station and MOS they are in......bc I doubt I would ever hear that coming from a grunt, tanker, tracker, lar, etc....and Trust me if you could, I could ultilize you....I had to hump a 50Cal off a AAV over 5 miles bc another AAV's 50Cal went down....that was a hump..all my gear, radio, my M4, and a 50Cal in 120degree weather, and quicksand desert......and if I had a WM to send that could do that....ha....have at is hoss....

Not saying you cant do that....but if you can...have at it.....Ill petition the Marine Corps so that you can be attached to the grunts....

But when I was in about '05 ...the Marine Times did do a article about Women Versus Men in the Marines....It talked about how if they should make females do Pull ups instead of arm hangs, rifle scores, obstacle course times, pfts, pro/cons, and etc....I remember reading in while I was in oki....its was research down to the tee....Dang I wish I still hand the article bc It would save a lot of argument in this treat bc results dont lie.....and ill just leave it at that.....

[commdog7]

I think the Captain explained it well.

There are a bunch of separate issues popping up, it is difficult to keep track of them all. Women in combat... I'm going to stay away from that topic, that argument will never end.

Hazing... I'm sorry, but I high doubt your friend was demoted for yelling at a female Marine. I am not buying that story, there was more to it than he lead on. I've gotten yelled at plenty of times, I just sucked it up and moved on (as most Marines do). The best leaders out there do not automatically resort to yelling and degrading a Marine. As a leader, you must understand your Marines individually and identify the best style of leadership to use for any given situation. For instance, if a Marine is 5 minutes late to work, a simple 'hey, don't be late again' might be all it takes to square them away. Now if it's a hard-headed Marine who is consistantly late, then a full-fledged ass chewing might be in order. It's not about male or female, it's about knowing your Marines and adapting to their style of learning.

I don't know why the blood stripe "tradition" came up, but I'll hit on that too. Hazing should not be a tradition of the Corps. That type of hazing may result in some serious injuries, and that never furthers the mission. Camaraderie builds up coehesion, hazing destroys it. I'm priviledged to be stationed in a really awesome (MSG) detachment; I'm closer to the Marines that I work with than I am with my own brother. Hazing does not happen here, not even close. It's all about good leadership and esprit de corps. We just stole another detachment's guidon, and it did wonders for our camaraderie. We are tight, and it has nothing to do with physically assaulting each other to find the "weak" link.

Chivalry... it is romantic in theory, but it can be damaging to the overall mission. It is possible we may have lost WW2 had women not joined the military- free a man to fight, Rah? Today, almost 10% of the Corps is comprised of women. Sure, maybe the Corps could scrape the bottom of the barrel and replace all females with men, but there are certain jobs that require females. Take Iraq and Afghanistan for example: female Marines are searching Iraqi/Afghan women for weapons. We are also talking with the local women in order to understand ways to improve their lives. I know, because I did this when I was in Iraq. The Corps needs women, just like it needs men. Maybe you joined the military to protect women, does that mean that I should have never joined the Corps because I might be interferring with your reason? If you want me to be considerate your reason for joining, then you have to be considerate mine. You may not agree with it, but you should respect it.

The Corps has benefitted from women in the ranks, there is no question. Women are not allowed in direct combat, so you can feel chivalrous about that. I'll admit, there a lot of shady women Marines out there, one's who I'd like to see booted out. But there are many hard working women in the Corps who serve with honor, and there should be no question about their place among Marines.

[giveen]

Afterall, if I'm capable of doing everything that you're doing, then that doesn't make you so tough anymore, does it? I've met a lot of guys who even admit to that. I think it's stupid though. Who cares about being a tough man. It should be enough to be considered a tough person. And that's what Marines are.
So, I'm sorry if my presence makes you feel uncomfortable or insignificant, but I'm not going anywhere. A lot of the old school guys don't understand that you can't keep someone from doing something just because of their gender, but luckily the new generation understands better.

I'm sorry, but no you are not capable of doing everything.
Its a FACT, that men are physcially stronger, able to run longer, carry more, and are more physically fit, than woman.

Thats just a biological fact. Deal with it.

Thats why there is two different PFT's, I can name only a handful of WM who can even do 3 pullups.

I am not saying there is not a role or place for women in the military, but there is some jobs that men just naturally do better, and there is jobs that women do better.

[commdog7]

Forgot to mention, I agree that females can't do everything that a male can do. Particularly with physical strength, males are better built for that type of stuff. Women naturally produce estrogen, which develops fat for child-bearing purposes; whereas males naturally produce testosterone, which develops muscle. With that in mind, I think women can do more than most people would think, as mental strength plays a large role in our abilities.

Women can shoot, crawl through mud, climb up ropes, etc. But as far as humping a 100 pound pack for 30 miles... well, our bodies are not built for that (although I'm sure a few female Marines out there can do it). Utilize for what we can do, but if the mission is best suited for a male Marine, so be it.

[giveen]

I am not saying that all females are incapable of that. Heck I know some male Marines who are incapable of meeting the physical standards.

I spent my last year on BCP. I was a Marine doing a 281 PFT, but couldn't met the body-fat standards. Yet I could out run/out lift/out do anything that a lot of male and female Marines could do who were in the weight standards.

[commdog7]

Thats why there is two different PFT's, I can name only a handful of WM who can even do 3 pullups.

Hopefully that hand isn't too full, because I deserve a place in there as well.

[giveen]

Hopefully that hand isn't too full, because I deserve a place in there as well.

I can do a 70 sec dead hang. (actully somewhere in the 90's sec's was my record)

[ForeverMarine]

If a Marine was late, just say dont be late again?..There is a difference between calling in and saying Sgt im going to be ten minutes late versus not calling and being UA.........and an NCO should adapt to their Marines lifestyle and their way of learning??......I know there are some special cases where you need to guide Marines...but to adapt to their lifestyle? wow.....Chesty Puller would role over in his grave....GOD I LOVE CHESTY!!!!

And my friend was busted down....more or less from a woman that wanted to be treated like a woman and now a Marine....sure he called her every bad name in the book...she didnt like being called a P***Y, and he got lit up....was made an example out of...and its freaking unsat.....

if I went to my 1stSgt and said omg Cpl so and so called me a P***Y....I would of gotten laughed at and probally hazed by my 1stSgt lol....but then again that is in to 20% of the Marine Corps where there is no women....its called a combat unit.....