My Lai Massacre-Lt. Calley Apologizes

[usmcspitfire]

....GENTLEMEN....this thread is getting out of hand. MURDER? ATROCITIES?....where do I start? How about the Holocaust? Was justice served? How about the Bataan death march? Was justice served? How about OUR fire bombing of Dresden, and Hamburg? Was justice served?

"WAR IS HELL!"...terrorism...ALL countries that wage war are responsible for the killing of innocent civilians. To single out just ONE incident in the war in Viet Nam, is OBSCENE!! STOP TRYING TO FIND REASON IN THE THOUGHTS OF POLITICALLY ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO DICTATE WAR POLICY!!!

How is it obscene, Doc? Should we just shrug it off? It is a big deal, if we do not make a precedent of this, it will encourage events like this in the future.

Politics is a necessary component of counterinsurgency, so is civil affairs, even more important than the military aspect. You blame politicians, but it was the commanders of MACV that refused to integrate guerilla warfare strategy/suggestions from lower level Officers. Even President Kennedy made a push for non-conventional strategy in the US forces in Vietnam. The MACV Command refused to steer away from their conventional policy that served them well through WWII and Korea. The Marine Corps was the only branch to widely recognize the need for a new strategy through out the Vietnam War with the CAP plts, but that was too late.

Killing innocent civilians is infinitely more harmful to the cause of a counterinsurgency than killing insurgents is healthy for a counterinsurgency.

I suggest "Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife" by Lt. Col. John Nagl, USA(R). It is a comparison between The British Army's defeat of communist terrorism(CT) in Malaya and the defeat of American forces in Vietnam.

Just my humble opinion.
S/F

[Gary Hall]

PFC HALL you forgot 2 add President Kennedy @ Ho Chi Mien

On my not commenting about JFK, if memory is not totally gone, I have read reports that Pres. Kennedy, had he been given the opportunity, would have began US Troop drawdowns in Viet Nam, this would have been early 1964.

Regarding Ho Chi Mien (Uncle Ho): Again, reports have been that one of his first efforts after assuming a Viet Nam leadership role was to ask the US to help and support him. Please some of you scholars check me out on this. I have read that the North Viet Nam Constitution was modeled after the US Constitution and also, that frequently on July 4th, some years, NVN would publicly read the US Constitution over the air.

Wars are tricky, and bravery has little to do with a successful outcome. The winning side will be the one that has the most to waste and makes the fewest mistakes.

Unfortunately, this requirement demands a special type of Moral Leader & when I look around the US Congress, all I see are wannabes, looking to fill up their sacks.
Gung Ho, Gary Hall.

[ggyoung]

Just to add a little more to the fire. What about the Que Sone Valley killing? This was done by US Marines. 16 old men and women and kids were killed. Who knows about that?

This involves LT. Oliver North. 3rd. Marine Reg. and the 1st Marine Reg. BTW this has a happy ending.

[ggyoung]

How is it obscene, Doc? Should we just shrug it off? It is a big deal, if we do not make a precedent of this, it will encourage events like this in the future.

Politics is a necessary component of counterinsurgency, so is civil affairs, even more important than the military aspect. You blame politicians, but it was the commanders of MACV that refused to integrate guerilla warfare strategy/suggestions from lower level Officers. Even President Kennedy made a push for non-conventional strategy in the US forces in Vietnam. The MACV Command refused to steer away from their conventional policy that served them well through WWII and Korea. The Marine Corps was the only branch to widely recognize the need for a new strategy through out the Vietnam War with the CAP plts, but that was too late.

Killing innocent civilians is infinitely more harmful to the cause of a counterinsurgency than killing insurgents is healthy for a counterinsurgency.

I suggest "Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife" by Lt. Col. John Nagl, USA(R). It is a comparison between The British Army's defeat of communist terrorism(CT) in Malaya and the defeat of American forces in Vietnam.

Just my humble opinion.
S/F

OMG LT. You have been reading some old books. Good for you. Can you remember the old movie "7 Dawn"?

[usmcspitfire]

OMG LT. You have been reading some old books. Good for you. Can you remember the old movie "7 Dawn"?

That is a great attitude to have, Sgt. In fact I know some names of men who shared your same attitude. One of their names was Gen. Westmoreland. They thought that listening to suggestions of younger officers was absurd, like Lt. Col. Moore (depicted in We Were Soldiers).

I guess it would be a better idea to have young officers who aren't educated about the type of warfare they are engaging in, right Sgt? Have more Lt. Calley's out there?

PM me if you would like to continue this, no need to distract from this thread.

[montana]

ggyoung the Que Sone vally -Marine Corps issue was in the village of SonThang...LT Oliver North was not there...he had been up north with the 3rd....the Marine that led the Killer team had saved Norths life a cupple of times ...the so called pulled the 3rd out of Nam ...what they did was gather all the salts from the 5th and the 7th <----<
Gary Hall
North Vietnam fought along with American troops aginst the Japs.....and asked the US to help them unite their country and help sway France to give up their clame to south Vietnam...US desided to stand by their French allys

[montana]

from the 5th and 7th and transferd them to the 3rd...the boots from the 3rd were dispursed amongst up....along with Pvt Randy Herrod the team leader and North rescuer was the one that gave the orders to shoot...and also fired was not convicted...those killed were women and children ranging from 68 year old granny to 18 month old babby shot in the head at very close range by a 45 pistol..no men were found among the bodys

[SgtThrasher]

[quote=usmcspitfire;534951]Respectfully, I do not understand the point of you posting that. Just because the enemy were savage in their methods, does not permit U.S. forces leeway in murdering innocent civilians. Lt. Calley was the platoon commander, he was responsible for the actions of his men.

I hope we (U.S. Forces) have learned from Vietnam that over reliance on technology, close air support, artillery, and conventional warfare in general will not win a war against insurgents.[/quo
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It should be obvious ,two massacres occur and only one is reported.I didn't imply Lt.Calley's actions were justified,(they weren't ) and that U.S forces were permitted the murder of innocent civilians because these kinds of things were carried out by Vietnamese communist , those were your words Lieutenant !

I disagree with your theory of Vietnam,the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam.In retrospect it was the MSM,the politicians and hippies that took care of that!

[SgtThrasher]

[quote=usmcspitfire;534951]Respectfully, I do not understand the point of you posting that. Just because the enemy were savage in their methods, does not permit U.S. forces leeway in murdering innocent civilians. Lt. Calley was the platoon commander, he was responsible for the actions of his men.

I hope we (U.S. Forces) have learned from Vietnam that over reliance on technology, close air support, artillery, and conventional warfare in general will not win a war against insurgents.[/quo

It should be obvious ,two massacres occur and only one is reported.I didn't imply Lt.Calley's actions were justified,(they weren't ) and that U.S forces were permitted the murder of innocent civilians because these kinds of things were carried out by Vietnamese communist , those were your words Lieutenant !

I disagree with your theory of Vietnam,the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam.In retrospect it was the MSM,the politicians and hippies that that took care of that!

[usmcspitfire]

[quote=SgtThrasher;535444]

Respectfully, I do not understand the point of you posting that. Just because the enemy were savage in their methods, does not permit U.S. forces leeway in murdering innocent civilians. Lt. Calley was the platoon commander, he was responsible for the actions of his men.

I hope we (U.S. Forces) have learned from Vietnam that over reliance on technology, close air support, artillery, and conventional warfare in general will not win a war against insurgents.[/quo

It should be obvious ,two massacres occur and only one is reported.I didn't imply Lt.Calley's actions were justified,(they weren't ) and that U.S forces were permitted the murder of innocent civilians because these kinds of things were carried out by Vietnamese communist , those were your words Lieutenant !

I disagree with your theory of Vietnam,the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam.In retrospect it was the MSM,the politicians and hippies that that took care of that!

It isn't my theory, it belongs to some of the greatest military theorists and commanders of the late 20th/early 21st century.

You can disagree with it as much as you want. You proved the point by saying "the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam." Even if that was true, it shows you cannot win a war against insurgents strictly by military means, as Vietnam showed. There is also a civil and political side to the conflict. "You might have won the battle, but I have won the war!"

Example: The Tet Offensive.

It was overwhelmingly a one-sided ass-whooping military victory, thanks to our fine Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen in country. However, it was seen as a political victory for the North Vietnamese, one which we would never overcome.

I don't mean to sound like I am lecturing, if I do, just having a professional discussion with fellow Marines.

S/F

[Gary Hall]

Montana: Thank you for the reply. I've got to ask you, could you be the "Montana" (I never knew him by any other name) who worked with me in the South Texas oilfields on drilling rigs. It was about 10 or so years ago. I remember "Montana" had been in the USMC, I think in Viet Nam and I remember a story he told me one time about being a brig chaser, briefly. From looking at your profile pic, there is a resemblance. Looking forward to a reply. Gary Hall, Tyler, TX. (Gung Ho).

[ggyoung]

ggyoung the Que Sone vally -Marine Corps issue was in the village of SonThang...LT Oliver North was not there...he had been up north with the 3rd....the Marine that led the Killer team had saved Norths life a cupple of times ...the so called pulled the 3rd out of Nam ...what they did was gather all the salts from the 5th and the 7th <----<
Gary Hall
North Vietnam fought along with American troops aginst the Japs.....and asked the US to help them unite their country and help sway France to give up their clame to south Vietnam...US desided to stand by their French allys

In 1970 I was NCOIC of Brovo Block 3rd MAV Brig. At that time I had 2 prisoners who were on the Killer Team in Son Thang. Green was one and the other I can't remember his name. I know we all thought that they were getting the sh!!ty end of the stick. During the night watches we would be one of them out of his cell and give him some smokes. It was the one who I can not remember his name that was in Norths platoon. Any way LT. North came back to Vietnam for the kids tryail. North went out on a killer team to see what it was like. He got that young Marine off. So the rest of the team got off also. A very good book to read all about it is "Blues Bastards"

[Gary Hall]

Lt, I wouldn't have the brass to contradict any of your words, on my own.

The following remarks are not of my origination, but I have come to believe them.

How would you rate Gen'l McArthur among the rolls of those great Military Theorists?

Have you read the now old book by Col. T. R. Fehrenbach, "This Kind of War"? (Col. Fehrenbach talks about leaders of men & "perfumed Princes"). Are you familiar with the direction this could take?

Are Generals LeMay & Patton among your references that deny wars can be won by Military means?

I read that Col. Fehrenbach took the position that talkers and "perfumed prince" Infantry leaders are not going to win anything. They prefer to posture and "manage circumstances", and exist to have their picture taken with their mouths open.

Wars will continue to be won by "rendering harmless". Now if you can do that by talking, (politics) I want to live long enough to see it.

By "rendering harmless" I prefer to use the Words to be found in Joshua Chapter 6, when the Lord gives his orders to Joshua: "Kill everyone . . . ".

That'll get their attention, politics wont do it. and Gung Ho, Gary Hall.

[usmcspitfire]

Lt, I wouldn't have the brass to contradict any of your words, on my own.

The following remarks are not of my origination, but I have come to believe them.

How would you rate Gen'l McArthur among the rolls of those great Military Theorists?

Have you read the now old book by Col. T. R. Fehrenbach, "This Kind of War"? (Col. Fehrenbach talks about leaders of men & "perfumed Princes"). Are you familiar with the direction this could take?

Are Generals LeMay & Patton among your references that deny wars can be won by Military means?

I read that Col. Fehrenbach took the position that talkers and "perfumed prince" Infantry leaders are not going to win anything. They prefer to posture and "manage circumstances", and exist to have their picture taken with their mouths open.

Wars will continue to be won by "rendering harmless". Now if you can do that by talking, (politics) I want to live long enough to see it.

By "rendering harmless" I prefer to use the Words to be found in Joshua Chapter 6, when the Lord gives his orders to Joshua: "Kill everyone . . . ".

That'll get their attention, politics wont do it. and Gung Ho, Gary Hall.

Gary, I never said wars cannot be won by military means. I said that insurgencies(historically) can't be fought strictly by military means. I agree with you that conventional wars rely on military force. The Marine Corps has a history of winning in small guerrilla warfare with unconventional strategies.

The reason that the senior Officers in Vietnam were so dead set on conventional warfare is that they were junior officers in WWII, mid level officers in Korea, both which were strictly conventional wars. They were convinced by the examples of Patton and MacArthur that ALL wars could be won through superior firepower and technology.

Also, being an educated Marine and being a hard warrior in combat are not mutually exclusive. Some of the strongest, hardest, Marines I have known were also some of the smartest Marines I have ever known, enlisted or officer.

[FistFu68]

Dam Gary I was just reading the book of Moses Originator of the 1st.Israel Defense Forces when encamped in Sini 4 2 years,then Joshua very Deep