Criminals...Let's Talk

[jetdawgg]

Hey..I expected JD here..as a matter of fact I told JD that I would start this thread. I value his opinions...he's made some excellent remarks in other threads.
Some merit to what you are saying JD, that's why I like your opinions..keeps a thinking man honest and an honest man thinking.

One of the basic questions psychologist and sociologist have been arguing about for a long time is the "nature vs. nurture" idea. Is a baby born with a "blank slate" and can be nurtured to be good, or will that baby be born with what some call instincts or the genes inherited from a parent and turn out bad anyway. I really wish I could support the nurture side more, but I see nature win out more often. Ever see the studies about twins separated when they are young and how both usually turn out to be the same later in life when they are united? Working in the school system, I see it more often than not that the kid will end up just like their parents even when they are taken away by the state and placed in good foster homes. It is because of my experience, what I have seen, that makes me sad that nurture doesn't work so well. If a child inherits genes from the "good" parent, there is a good chance that you can reach them..in lots of cases that I know of, they just turn out fine, but I have seen young children do OK just to turn bad in their teen years. Can't help it JD...give me a hand..I try to help the kids every year as they go through my class...I give each of them respect and treat them like they are Class A students...until they get into serious trouble...I normally get along with them and even into adulthood, but the vast majority still end up in court. It's hard to tell them they need a good education and teach them the good old American work ethic when they have more money in their pockets from selling drugs than you and I do? I try, that's all I can do for now. Give me something to try and I will JD..that's why I'm in the schools...
SF

William, I appreciate a lot of things here:

First for starting the thread
Two the civility here
Three this is the toughest site on the web
Four this is one of the most intelligent sites on the web

I know that this is a very serious social issue. Answers are tough to come by.
WH, one of the primary problems now a days is the mobility. People that may have lived in some of the poorer communities move out.

This mobility stifles development as all that is left in the neighborhood is the undesirable assortment of characters. The ones that the always escape the Police for one reason or another.

They are always up to things, no good, but they never get caught. They use the ones that we want to save as a conduit for their corrupt ways.

I would continue the efforts that you have initiated. The ones that can be saved will swim. Impress upon them things like self determination. You are an expert in that having served in the USMC

Thanks for the comps too, but I just am a regular Jarhead

[William Hardy]

I always thought that the government could save money if they just used the drugs and syringes found at the scene....and what's with the alcohol wipes...who's worried about an infection?

Keep talking....we have to save the kids....most will turn out OK anyway, but we could reduce crime if we can change their attitudes...I'm a pessimist but I keep trying anyway...

I look at it this way....I don't know which one of them will end up caring for me in the old folks home....gotta try and help them all...kind of an insureance...

[Rocky C]

Gunny Hardy,
This is one Great, Positive, Constructive Thread!!!
Congrats to all who are contibuting here.
I have some thoughts but I cannot type as fast as you all so I will type it in my email program and then post it here.
Semper Fi,
Rocky

[Big Jim]

I always thought that the government could save money if they just used the drugs and syringes found at the scene....and what's with the alcohol wipes...who's worried about an infection?

Keep talking....we have to save the kids....most will turn out OK anyway, but we could reduce crime if we can change their attitudes...I'm a pessimist but I keep trying anyway...

I look at it this way....I don't know which one of them will end up caring for me in the old folks home....gotta try and help them all...kind of an insureance...

I full well understand your concern, Gunny. The alcohol wipes and the quiet lethality if the injection process all comes from the liberals. BE HUMANE!! That's what they tell us to do. Hell, I have personally witnessed 2 lethal injections here in Ohio. Its almost too good for what some of these idiots have done. But, again, we don't get to decide that law.

[William Hardy]

Need some more input. I could write a book on this stuff....well at least a couple hundred pages worth which I did do in graduate school.
To summarize my thesis ....
1. Elementary - Most of the kids in the lower grades all behave in similar ways. Nurture seems to be working...they learn the rules...they are happy...everything is great.
2. Junior High - Things change - It didn't matter about any factors - economic status, family problems, etc..it just didn't matter. My researched showed that the preacher kid got into just as much trouble as the project kid.
3. High School - Kids start turning into their parents. All the good work done at the elementary level begins to be undone. Nature wins most of the time.

The results were just for our community with the resources we have in place...the results could have been just the opposite in another community. It's just heartbreaking to lose a kid after all those years.

I hate to see those kids turn into repeat offenders and end up in the category I started with in this thread. It may be sad to me to do so, but I apply my opinion to them as well as all those I don't know.

Let's hear some more on both sides ...
What do we do with criminals?
How can we help the younger group not to become criminals?
Is it nature or nurture?

[Warbyrd13]

Let's hear some more on both sides ...


First off I would like to say this is a very good thread and everyone has brought up allot of great ideas and or what they think would be solutions to the problem.

What do we do with criminals?

To answer the first question about what we do with criminals.
For 1st time on minor crimes would be community service, education, volunteer work ect. Give these people a chance to redeem themselves. Everyone makes a mistake. Take your punishment and move on with your life.

Repeaters on minor crimes should start to get harsher punishment if they keep doing the same stupid things over and over again. DUI loose their license to drive, fishing and hunting. Mandorty AA meetings because they seem to have a problem.

For major crimes very steep and harsh punishments. It will stop people from committing crimes like the following:

Gang member= Death “honestly I believe cops should be allowed to shoot gang members on sight, gangs seem enjoy killing cops and other people when they feel like it.”


Murder= 2 appeals to prove innocence in 6 months. If still found guilty after the 6 months max then death is carried out. (It seems harsh but it will stop a lot of idiots wanting to kill someone for stupid reasons)


Rape= death 2 appeals then death sentence.
Note: All petty cases like “date rape” or she was ok until the next morning gets thrown out. If the accuser if proved to have lied about the rape then that person serves 25 years or more in jail. This solves the problem we have now have of false rape cases. I know it might pi## some people off but the past 5 “cases” in the military I have known about only 1 was true the others were lied about so the woman could protect herself from her cheating on her husband or boyfriend. Yet 4 young men are now “ropiest”. I am very supported of people who have been raped and I believe in a slow and painful death for rapiest. But for those people who cry rape to cover their sorry a&& buts when they get caught cheating need to be punished.

Child abuse/rape= Proven to be accurate with DNA testing or other facts and not a false claim (namely this comes up in divorce hearings.) then slow and painful death. To me this is the most brutal crime ever to commit and I believe the person needs to suffer a long time before they are allowed to die for harming a child. I am very biased on this subject because I am a parent of 3 small children. I have no mercy for anyone who would harm any of my children.
False claims should be punished also with jail time. I have seen this in custody battles and it sickens me when this tactic is used.


Drug dealer= Death by Over dose. You choose to deal you die very simple.


Serial Killers= Very painful Death (I would even allow the family member of the victim(s) to do the act)

How can we help the younger group not to become criminals?
This would be of society setting up higher morale standards and enforcing it. This of course would start with the parents setting the example, family and the community. Every one knows the difference between right and wrong. We should be teaching responsibility for your actions more. How to be honest. Treat everyone fair. Things like this should be common place.

Positive Role models should be police, firemen. Nurses and Doctors. Professional Athletes should be doing more volunteer work with kids and education programs. We should be more people interested in positive examples these people set not the drug use, binge drinking, cheating on the spouses a crap that people seem to enjoy more.

A higher morale standard should be set and accepted.

Is it nature or nurture?
Neither, you have a choice. It don’t matter what your parents did, what background you came from you still make a choice in your life on what you do. You know what is right and what is wrong. And when you make those choices you should be ready to accept what comes with them.
Too many times I have seen people blame their mistakes on their childhood, their education, where they lived. That is total and utter BS. You make your own choices and you know the difference between right and wrong. The problem is no one wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore; it is easier just to blame someone else.

[Parker-0321]

Capital Punishment....Kill them all as quick as they killed the victim.

With the advent of DNA now as soon as it it is proven....kill them the same way they murdered!

Some are not guilty in incarceration...but it doesn't take ten years to figure it out.

If you do the crime...do the time.


Prison is a good thing...keeps more dickheads off the streets.

Parole..... if done your man given time and are reformed(SIC) then it is up to you and your maker when the reaper comes for your azz.

Kill and be killed, the murder rate is insane, I bet that would put a dent in it.

What's the name of that prison that puts it's prisoners in tents in the desert, gives them nothing but pink to wear, keeps them in chain gangs, and puts them to work doing mind-numbing, hard physical labor? THAT is a prison. Prison should be something to dread, not something to be taken lightly. Make punishment exactly that, PUNISHMENT.

[DocGreek]

....GOLLY GEE!! HOLY COW...DUDES!!..What great NEW constructive ideas, and plans you ALL have!!!! "Shoot em' all, and let GOD sort it out!!!".......NO, WAIT!!!.....they all had bad childhoods, so we've got to counsel and medicate THEM...to put them back into society!!!

ENFORCE THE LAWS!!!....WHINING...about "our" problems, NEVER fixes them!!! We are a society/culture based on the laws...WE CREATED!! "Uphold the LAW, at any cost!!!"...J.R.A. REMEMBER DEMOCRACY???.....if you don't like the laws....REPEAL THEM!!....if you want BETTER LAWS...ENACT THEM!!!

Who's at fault for all of the bad crap???.........WE ARE!!!............ALWAYS FAITHFUL.....Doc Greek

[HST]

I'm for capital punishment and I mean public executions. The punishment should also be done in a timely manner not after 15 years of appeals but I think we need to be very sure that the person is really guilty and we're now finding through DNA testing that many of them are not.

In the case of imprisonment, I think they should do the time but I think we need to stop putting people in prison for things like drug use. I think all and I mean all drugs shoild be legalized or decriminalized. It some idiot wants to get high, or jump off a bridge, thats his business, as long as he doesn't put others in jeprody. Our prisons are full of people who are guilty of nothing more than getting high. We spend billions on drug interdiction and it don't even touch the problem.

Thats my 2c on it, put the violent criminals away for long times, eliminate the most violent, Keep the government out of our bedrooms and medicine cabinets.

[Ed Palmer]

You know I just love this ,
http://www.tonyrogers.com/video/GunCONTROL%201.wmv

[Big Jim]

I'm for capital punishment and I mean public executions. The punishment should also be done in a timely manner not after 15 years of appeals but I think we need to be very sure that the person is really guilty and we're now finding through DNA testing that many of them are not.

In the case of imprisonment, I think they should do the time but I think we need to stop putting people in prison for things like drug use. I think all and I mean all drugs shoild be legalized or decriminalized. It some idiot wants to get high, or jump off a bridge, thats his business, as long as he doesn't put others in jeprody. Our prisons are full of people who are guilty of nothing more than getting high. We spend billions on drug interdiction and it don't even touch the problem.

Thats my 2c on it, put the violent criminals away for long times, eliminate the most violent, Keep the government out of our bedrooms and medicine cabinets.

You really belive all drugs should be legalized and decriminalized....??? Wow...you have no clue what you're even saying or even what that would mean to our entire economy and legal structure. Not to mention the massive amount of problems it would create for the health of the people.

So you think that these people are in prisons for just getting high on drugs....just getting high and that's it....?!?! That couldn't be further from the truth if you tried harder....!! Here in Columbus, Ohio....I have alot of cop friends and they only hand out misdemeanor possession tickets to anyone walking down the street smoking a joint and let them go on thier way.....they don't lock anyone up for getting high....!! They lock people up for dealing the drugs and the robberies and killings they commit for money they need so they can buy the drugs in order to maintain their habits...!! Your focusing on another problem completely different than the prison system or capital punishment if you want to keep your drugs so you can just get high and be left alone.

Your $.02 isn't worth $.02.

[Trucrimsongold]

How about a new approach?

Education and real equal opportunity? Maybe that will really reduce the need for the Prison Industrial Complex (PIC)

A lot people are in jail for economic reasons a lot in part due to poor education and that poor education leads to many unequal opportunities.

A lot of people are in jail because they cross the line society has deemed as a unlawful act. Im poor as well but I work harder to make more money so my kids get to go to a decent school. How do you suppose to pay for educating thugs? Tax money. From those who work for a living. The very people thugs prey on who not only support room and board for them after they are arrested through tax dollars now should pay for them to get an education? LIBERAL GIBBERISH.

Fear prevents crime. If im afraid that if I break that law I might sit in a cage or be put to death I will not commit the crime. A basic "dog" can understand that principle. Heck a three year old can understand actions and consequences if they are taught right from wrong. Your solution those disguised with some "Higher education slicker" is bogus and already has proven to have failed. Where have you been for the past thirty years? Prisoners already have these type of bogus educational opprotunities online within prisons as well as other social programs paid for by tax paying people who work for a living.

[HST]

I don't think so but then how would I know? I'm just out on the streets in the hoods every day. I see people who get a jones on some $200.00 a day sh*t that really costs about $2.00 and can't stop. First they hock everything they've got then they start robbing and stealing and fencing the stuff for 5% of its value and thats in the morning, by noon if they haven't got right, it goes down to 1%...and heres the great part, its our stuff they're stealing. Then catch them and we lock them up and that costs another 50 grand a year and thats not counting cops time which could be spent popping the real bad guys or the courts time. And its getting to the point where cops are turning theem loose with a ticket that they will never show up and pay because it costs so much and takes so long to do the lab work on the seized substances. But I don't know Sh*t. One other thing smart *ss, I don't care much for your b*llsh*t comment about "your drugs so you can get high" I don't do drugs of any kind. If you want to see it up close and personal come on over to my turf, I'll give you a ride that you'll remember for a while.

[Trucrimsongold]

I'm for capital punishment and I mean public executions. The punishment should also be done in a timely manner not after 15 years of appeals but I think we need to be very sure that the person is really guilty and we're now finding through DNA testing that many of them are not.

In the case of imprisonment, I think they should do the time but I think we need to stop putting people in prison for things like drug use. I think all and I mean all drugs shoild be legalized or decriminalized. It some idiot wants to get high, or jump off a bridge, thats his business, as long as he doesn't put others in jeprody. Our prisons are full of people who are guilty of nothing more than getting high. We spend billions on drug interdiction and it don't even touch the problem.

Thats my 2c on it, put the violent criminals away for long times, eliminate the most violent, Keep the government out of our bedrooms and medicine cabinets.

HST has a good point for all you who say the world would fall apart if all drugs were legal. I disagree to a point. I'm not going to go out and pick up a crack pipe if it was legal tommorow just like I will not stand in the middle of oncoming traffic should hitch hiking on the highways become legal. And tons of money are spen't by tax payers on the enforcement and war on drugs. You make drugs legal and sell it at Walgreens your average drug user isn't going to get shot by some thug drug dealer in the ghetto at 0300hrs and even better than that the thug drug dealer will be out of business. The government mucks things up. I don't know that they could regulate it, they have a poor track history of their involvement in anything this country has seen and they sure as heck are throwing a great deal of money at the enforcement of it. But HST is wrong about the "poor addict" making up the prisons. That is bogus. The one's who are put in are the one's who have crossed the line into major dangerous stuff like burglaries or assaults. The addicts instead get tax payer expense bogus "first offender programs" where they go to tax payer "diverson classes" and play vollyball out in the country and get social security money because they are considered "disable" because of their habit, thats the real issue I have. Take the government out of it and let the rats kill each other. Just dont allow them to have responsible jobs that involve other peoples safety. Have stricter screening for drugs in jobs like Air Traffic Controller,Pilots etc...so on ...Teachers...Bus drivers....All have to test negative for all drugs...Again, the government mucks things up.

[Trucrimsongold]

William, I appreciate a lot of things here:

First for starting the thread
Two the civility here
Three this is the toughest site on the web
Four this is one of the most intelligent sites on the web

I know that this is a very serious social issue. Answers are tough to come by.
WH, one of the primary problems now a days is the mobility. People that may have lived in some of the poorer communities move out.

This mobility stifles development as all that is left in the neighborhood is the undesirable assortment of characters. The ones that the always escape the Police for one reason or another.

They are always up to things, no good, but they never get caught. They use the ones that we want to save as a conduit for their corrupt ways.

I would continue the efforts that you have initiated. The ones that can be saved will swim. Impress upon them things like self determination. You are an expert in that having served in the USMC

Thanks for the comps too, but I just am a regular Jarhead

They never get caught because of people like you who always bash the Police and make their jobs harder, then you want them to help.
Funny how you make a smirk about how the thugs always escape the police "for one reason or another" but you are the first one to cry about excessive force. What a crock. The minute the Police did as they should and hit the drug corners and rounded up all the thug drug dealers you would be the first one crying about "Racist police". You can't have your cake and eat it too and you can't sit back and through a book at a solution to solve it, you have to get your hands on it and get them dirty at times and that means allowing the Police to do their jobs without trying to tie their hands behind their backs. Your very Rhetoric is the reason cops let stuff go. they just don't want to deal with it with the joke salary they make.