The Navy...

[Integrity57]

And they spend how long there? And what percentage of the Navy actually make it through BUDs and become SEALs? The US Navy SEALs are badass, but they are a tiny tiny portion of the Navy and they don't win wars.

Well Stone, if you knew what the role of any Spec Ops unit was you would know that they are the tip of spear, and usually strike first in an invasion before any conventional units and then continue forward, so they're job isn't to stay static and fight on-going battles unless they're conducting Foreign Internal Defense with units from the country that they're operating in. FYI the flap on the front of our dress blue trousers is known as the Marine bib , so you can wipe your chin and carry on.

[Hotdog75XX]

Spec Ops unit was you would know that they are the tip of spear

Last time I checked "spears" usually stab something, not take pictures of it and go home...

...and for those who don't know actually know why the SEALS exist, it was because the Corps did not want to have a Marines' primary mission (Recon Marines in the 50s) supporting Navy and other assets that were NOT Marines. Recon and Raiders were launching from subs before SEALs were a thought in the minds of any UDT operator in WWII. As a matter of fact, many of the training regimens that the SEALs started their program with came straight from early Marine' Recon courses.

Furthermore, if sailors were as disciplined and gung-ho as Marines were then there would be no need for Marines. As our original purpose for existence is for us to protect sailors from mutinying against their skippers.

US Navy: Best damn taxi service in the world.

[Integrity57]

Sir, Marine Recon and the UDTs were formed at basically the same time in the 1940s and undertook similar missions but Recon's focused more on combat and the UDT's of mapping out and clearing beach obsticals for amphibious landings to take place. The SEALs foundation was formed from the UDT program and when President Kennedy expressed the need for a broader spectrum of Special Warfare units, the Chief of Naval Operations in 1961, ultimately stood up the Navy's SEAL program that same year.

[Hotdog75XX]

Good, so nothing I've stated above is false? Didn't Marines rescue the SEALs during Urgent Fury? We can go back and forth on this...

....Delay of the airdrop until daylight put it thirty-six minutes
behind the Marine assault at Pearls and cost the Rangers and
other Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) forces tactical
surprise. Adjusting the airflow changed the order of the C-130
airdrop which mixed the Ranger units on the landing zone. The
delay of the airdrop and confusion resulting from the unplanned
sequence of the airdrop was a major operational slip-up. After
overcoming stiff Cuban resistance at the airport and rescuing
students at the True Blue campus, the Rangers learned of other
American students at the Grand Anse campus south of St. George’s
and radioed for reinforcements. Meanwhile, having lost the cover
of darkness as they entered St. George’s, Navy SEALs found
themselves trapped and outgunned as they tried to rescue the
Governor-General.
At ADM McDonald’s request, GEN Vessey sent two battalions
from the 82d Airborne Division to reinforce the Rangers. At the
same time, MG Schwarzkopf advised VADM Metcalf to redraw the
tactical boundary between the Army and the Marines and move the
Marines to rescue the SEALs. On 26 October, Schwarzkopf
commandeered Marine helicopters on board the USS Guam to fly
Rangers from Point Salines to rescue nearly two hundred American
students at Grand Anse...

from http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/history/urgfury.pdf

In summary, the SEALs get held up, the Rangers are late and not fast enough, Airborne guys don't have the mobility and firepower, who gets the job done? Actually I would recommend the entire Urgent Fury report to anyone as it shows the capabilities of the MEU and what it did for the entire operation. In terms of firepower, maneuverability, and ship to shore movement of troops.

Not that I'm saying they (the Seals) don't serve their purpose, but **** happens. In terms of dominating a battlespace Marines get the nod. Either way I'm glad to have them on my side.

[Fievel]

Good, so nothing I've stated above is false? Didn't Marines rescue the SEALs during Urgent Fury? We can go back and forth on this...

from http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/history/urgfury.pdf

In summary, the SEALs get held up, the Rangers are late and not fast enough, Airborne guys don't have the mobility and firepower, who gets the job done? Actually I would recommend the entire Urgent Fury report to anyone as it shows the capabilities of the MEU and what it did for the entire operation. In terms of firepower, maneuverability, and ship to shore movement of troops.

Not that I'm saying they (the Seals) don't serve their purpose, but **** happens. In terms of dominating a battlespace Marines get the nod. Either way I'm glad to have them on my side.

That's some good sh1t right there, sir. I'm going to check out that link.

[Integrity57]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouts_...ts_.26_Raiders

[Hotdog75XX]

^^^Wikipedia quoted: Thread Over

Expound on that; I'm not sure what your trying to state.

Not trying to be a sarcastic ass, I genuinely want to know.

*For future reference, try to come up with something other than a wiki citation, not that some of it isn't true, but anyone can go in there and start making crap up.*

[sparkie]

If you're quotin Raiders, you gotta go back to 'Rogers Raiders". French and indian war. Of which my grandfather, times many, John Stark was one of the founders of 'Special Ops'. Went on to command the battle of Breeds Hill. Special Forces goes way back.

[Hotdog75XX]

^I think you mean Rogers' Rangers...which were an irregular infantry unit in colonial times...and precursor to the modern Rangers...but no direct lineage. Not raiders though...

That's pretty damn impressive if you can trace your family tree all the way back to those times.

[Petz]

I'd like to ask a question about that wiki link... I'm under the impression that there was only two raider bn. and that supposed 3rd that's being mentioned in the wiki site was actually the china Marines sent to help the new ROC from being over taken by the imperial japanese... all before WWII even got us involved in it (pearl harbor).

my wifes grandfather (kamikaze pilot who was recalled to protect his base from getting destroyed by us) said the reason Japan bombed us was because of our involvement in china... to include the blockades and fuel embargos because of it.

[sparkie]

Pardon my beer.

[OleDoc]

Not trying to stir sh*t up, as I appreciate and respect the Corpsmen as much as any Marine ...

but I saw a bumper sticker the other day that summed up the Marine's involvement in the Navy:

"Yes, the Marines are a department of the Navy; we're the MEN'S department!"

I had a bumper stick in the 70's.....

The Marines Have a Few Good Men
NAVY Corpsman

[OleDoc]

Not trying to stir sh*t up, as I appreciate and respect the Corpsmen as much as any Marine ...

but I saw a bumper sticker the other day that summed up the Marine's involvement in the Navy:

"Yes, the Marines are a department of the Navy; we're the MEN'S department!"

I had a bumper sticker in the 70's.....

The Marines Have a Few Good Men
NAVY Corpsman

[woodywood09]

That is the best laugh I have had all day!!!!

[Integrity57]

The point I was trying to make with that link was that we are both right and wrong on some of the details sir, I would have provided a explanation but I didn't have the time. The UDTs and SEALs didn't borrow from Recon's training doctrine, the UDTs started to develope their own combat tactics after WW2 and would provide the basis for what would become the initial foundation of BUD/S training. The Navy's Scouts and Raiders were formed at the same time as the Corps' and undertook similar missions according to that Wiki link, granted I don't have 100% faith into Wiki because like you said anyone can edit and add what they like to those pages. But what I find most interesting about Recon is found in the third paragraph under the Creation section of Recon's Wiki page (not saying it's the gospel)-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Raiders. No that I've looked back through this thread I can't believe how rediculous this thing has become, it started out with the usual back and forth between the Corps and the Navy and now it's become a debate about the origins of Special Operations lol.