up or out?

[ntsanders]

First off, I'd like to thank all those that have contributed to this site. It's answered many of my questions, made me look at things in a different way, and gave me many things to think about in regards to a career in the military, specifically the Marines.

I graduated from college last year, and have been in the workforce since. It is not giving me what I want however (challenge, job satisfaction, etc...) which has brought me here.

Now, to the point and the questions...

1. I've noticed some discussion, in regards to promotions, that the Marines adopt the philosophy of 'up or out.' I assume this means you must continually seek advancement or get out? Or, if you fail to make a promotion do they get rid of you? Basically, I'd like some confirmation and elaboration on this if possible.

(Depending on the answer to #1, ie...if advancement is required for a career in the Marines)

2. In regards to promotions, have any of you had any positive or negative experiences with this? For example, do politics play a role, to what extent, promotions more/less critical for officers/NCO's, etc...

I realize there are many obstacles between where I am now, and where I would be in a position to worry about stuff like this. I just like to know as much as I can before hand, and would appreciate any feedback on the topic.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

The "up or out" philosophy is one that the Marine Corps must use. While it isn't great to see an NCO with 13 years in the Marine Corps forced to leave, it is something that must happen. Just reenlisting in the Corps is a competition. There are usually more Marines wanting to reenlist than there are "boat spaces" in a particular MOS. For example, when I was thinking about reupping there were five slots for my MOS in II MEF. That meant we had to go to an interview, have our records examined, and be selected for reenlistment. This was a sad process as I saw many Marines that were close friends forced out, or forced to change MOS's. Being told that I had a boat space was one of the happiest days of my life. Unfortunaly, family issues made coming home more important for me, but it did allow a friend of mine to reenlist into his chosen MOS.
The worst experience I have with this philosophy was seeing the finest Sgt. I ever worked with forced to leave the Marine Corps. Sgt. "S" (his last name is murder to say, let alone spell) had been a Marine in the late 70's. During Desert Storm he decided that he needed to be back in the Marine Corps, so he reenlisted. After nine more years on active duty he was not allowed to reenlist because he had not been selected for SSgt. The reasoning was simple, his FitReps weren't pretty. He had ruptured his achilles while on a MEU. While recovering from the injury, he gained weight to the point he was placed on weight control. Once healed, he quickly began to lose the weight he had gained, and was soon meeting the Marine Corps body fat and height/weight requirements. Unfortunatly, this time on weight control made him less attractive for a highly competative promotion, and he was passed over. The Marine Corps lost a fine Marine and a dedicated NCO. But, it had to be done. You can't allow someone to stay in the middle of your rank structure forever. This slows down and clogs up the promotions of younger advancing Marines.

[ntsanders]

Follow up questions...

Is this policy true for both enlisted and officers then?

At what point in the ranks does it become more difficult to attain promotions? Let me clarify, I don't mean to sound as if any promotion is 'easy.' I assume at some point in the rank structure, there is only so many spots to fill...ie...only so many SSgt's of a certain MOS for which you qualify...etc...

Thanks in advance

[mbert]

The policy is true for both officers and enlisted. There are some generally recognized "cut off points" in promotion.

On the enlisted side, there is usually a cut off between Sgt and SSgt, and then again from GySgt to 1stSgt/MSgt and above.

For the officer ranks, the first real cut off is Capt to Major. Then it is Lt.Col to Col. The single toughest selection rate in the Corps is Col to BGen -- rougly a 6% selection rate.

Easy promotions are up to LCpl on the enlisted side, and 2ndLt to 1st Lt on the officer side. I have known many Marines who never made Corporal, and I have known several who made LCpl several times. I only knew one officer who never made 1stLt (he finished his career in the brig!).

Bottom line, if you know your stuff and dedicate yourself, you will do fine. You may not become the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps, but you will grow and learn. Promotion is competitive -- just like becoming a Marine. If it wasn't competitive, and if everyone who enlisted could become an NCO / SNCO, then it wouldn't be special (what is a Sergeant First Class anyway?)

[firstsgtmike]

My response will be generic, rather than specific. I'm more comfortable addressing it that way AND specifics valid today may not be valid tomorrow.

In a sense the military is a beaurocracy (sp?) as well as a hierachy (also sp?). The fundamental precept of the Peter Principle applies. A man is promoted until he reaches his level of incompetance, and there he stagnates.

All services, for both enlisted and officer have a policy to weed out stagnated individuals. Each service has a chart which is modified from time to time.

Reenlistment for enlisteds, retention for officers, requires achieving a certain rank or grade within a specified number of years to be eligible for reenlistment or retention.

This policy enables the services to get rid of dead weight and make room for the up and comings.

In the distant past (I've been retired for 25 years) officers eligible because of time in service/grade for advancement who were passed over (not selected) three times knew they were on the receiving end of a pink slip.

In the Marine Corps, promotions for Staff NCOs and Officers are based upon total Force requirements rather than local vacancies.
Advancement past billet requirements result in transfer when and where needed.

As per Echo_Four_Bravo, there are individuals who might appear to be shafted by the system (and some are). Explanations and recommendations could have (should have?) been included in their Fitness Reports and Officer Qualification Records by way of explanation of extenuating circumstances which will be rectified.

Possibly because I have never been hurt by it, I have always viewed the "system" with nothing but admiration.

Your question: At what point, difficulty for promotions? Consider an upside down funnel. For enlisted the top end is Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps. For Officers, it is Commandant of the Marine Corps.

The closer you get to the top, he more rarified the air is.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

1st Sgt, I didn't mean to indicate that Sgt S was shafted. He was not at all. He knew the rules going in, and the rules didn't allow for him to remain in the Marine Corps. I personally feel that the Corps lost a great leader and a fine NCO, but there will always be another man ready to step into his shoes.

[ntsanders]

Not only do I get my questions answered, but I also get an answer to my next question which I hadn't asked yet. That being "Is there a time limit in rank, or how do is it determined when you must be 'up or out'?"

Thanks again guys, your help is greatly appreciated.

[top1371]

The bottom line is... if you got your head on staight you wont have to worry about servce limitations.

Semper Fi,

Top

[clint]

As top 1371 stated do all you can without brown nosin,and you can make it. I was a Cpl in 1371 our promotions to Cpl were very limited so I thought Iwould not get it I was wrong.