The unwanted change...Old Corps vs. New Corps

[Barrio_rat]

After reading this thread, I was a bit put off. Was the Marine Corps of my generation - my time, less worthy? Soft? Not up to the standards of Chesty Puller, Howling Mad Smith, Archibald Henderson, the China Marines, Dan Daly or (God forbid) my father? And, is the Marine Corps of today not up to the standards of when I served?

So I took some time to reflect, to re-read some of the posts, to understand exactly what WE are talking about. I will not presume anything of anyone who posted here. This is my take on it. Most of what is mentioned, to me, is the ever popular 10%. Some of us, I’m sure, knew of more than 10% while others had far fewer than the 10% in their command.

I don’t know how many promotions are given on silver platters in “todays” Marine Corps, but when I was in, for the most part, rank was earned. You always had your brown nosers and they’d go up for meritorious promotions and often would be promoted. We had others who knew the Marine Corps and their MOS very well, would be selected to go before a meritorious promotion board and receive a promotion. Is that not earning the promotion? There was a time in the Marine Corps when one would not see Cpl until after their first enlistment was up. Do we have it easier today because most are promoted to Cpl within the first 3 years? My father was guaranteed promotion to Sgt if he reenlisted. We, when I was in, had no guarantees like that. Though, for some MOS’s, there was a reenlistment bonus, sometimes up to $30,000. Are todays Marines “softer” because of technology? Because todays Marines fly to Okinawa rather than take a troop transport across the Pacific Ocean? Or, perhaps it’s just economics for the Marine Corps. Technology has brought us many things. Lighter, more serviceable clothing. MRE’s, which some are better than C - Rations and some are far worse. Are Marines “softer” because the company has tried to make a meal that is not only nutritious but tastes good? Because they put in a tiny bottle of Tabasco sauce? Because the Marine Corps found that by making recruits run in boots destroyed their feet and then established policy for running shoes to be worn for runs and, therefore keeping more recruits in training up to graduation without processing them out or recycling them, this is a softer Marine Corps?

Todays Marine Corps has higher standards for joining than it ever has. The Marine Corps will no longer accept the ones given the option “go to jail or go into the military.” I knew one of the last Marines in under that policy. A damn fine Marine he was, too. The leadership of tomorrow will face what the leadership of today and yesterday have always been facing. A smarter group coming in and having to find new ways to motivate and command them.

My father served in the early to mid 50's. He was part of “The New Breed.” He knew some of the “Old Corps” Marines and talked about them with reverence. He also spoke of those who were there just before him. While he did serve in Korea, he was not part of the well known battles - Pusan, Inchon or Chosin. He spoke of those Marines with the greatest of respect. He always found contacts - I never understood how he could do it, until now - and would tell me of great and wonderful things Marines were doing all over the world. The MSG Marines in Iran and the courage they had while being held captive. What the Marines of Vietnam had accomplished. That in Vietnam, by percentage of total serving in country, there are fewer Marine POW’s or MIA’s than of all the other services. So, was his Marine Corps better than mine? Was it tougher? In some ways, maybe it was. In his time, rarely did he wear civvies. In my time we were all but required to wear civvies when off post or even off duty. In my father’s day, he got his butt chewed because he was overheard saying “you bet, sir” to a Capt. It was off duty and this Capt and my father, a Cpl, shared some common interests and would speak together of them. He was told it will be YES SIR or NO SIR and nothing else. In my day, we were able to speak more freely with the officers. We always used tact and decorum, but it was a freer exchange. One night, I gave my father a call from my OIC’s house (we were having a shop party) and he about flipped a lid. In his time, enlisted would never associate or be able to associate with the officers. But then, I was in the Wing and, it could be argued, this had some to do with moral. After a few years in, I realized what the main difference was between my father’s Marine Corps and the Marine Corps I was in. In his day, they had less rights but more freedom. In my day, we had more rights but less freedom. Gone were the days of getting drunk on a Friday or Saturday night and howling at the moon. Serious repercussions came to those who had an “alcoholic incident.” Yet, if we were mistreated by an officer, we had a recourse we could follow. There will always be changes. I almost cringe at what is to come over the next 30 years. Though, looking back over the last 50 years, while changes have been made and more are certain to come, one thing does stand out above all else. We are Marines. We will always uphold the standards and traditions that have been laid before us. Some new traditions may emerge. We will always go forth and do that which we have been tasked with and we will prevail or die trying. I would say, do not let the examples of a few be your standard for what the Marine Corps is today.

Well, I hope this made sense.

Semper Fi!

[USMC0311]

Hey Rat

My Opinion of you Marine. Your Pride and demeanor are Outstanding. You are a Good Marine and I am Proud to call ya Brother.

We collectively as Marines need to clean our ranks ourselves. I expect ALL Marines to conduct themselves with the Pride We all are Instilled with.
They iz always a 10% that's why we gotta square-away the ****-birds when we come across them. It ain't just the Recent Marines that need to be squared-away. I know some Old Corps Marines that need a heads-up on wtf they are expected to be.

Semper Fidelis, Marine

[albert torcini]

HEY RAT, JOE IS 100% CORRECT. I KNEW TWO BROTHER IN VIET NAM AND ONE RECIEVED THE MEDAL OF HONOR AND THE OTHER WAS A **** BIRD.

SEMPER FI, AL T

[Armory]

Excellent post Rat.

I joined the Marines to be the best with the best. I can safely say that the Marines I served with fit that bill more than any other service or organization I have seen or known.

I know that the Marine Corp is the finest organization I have or ever will have the pleasure to be a part of (Which becomes more and more apparant now that I'm in the civilian world).

Has it changed? You bet.

One thing however hasn't changed.

We're still the Finest Fighting Force this planet has ever seen.

[NamGrunt68]

Originally posted by albert torcini
HEY JOE, I LANDED WITH 3/3 IN APR. 65.I WAS WITH SUB UNIT #2
WHO WAS ATTACHED TO THE 3RD MARINES.MY ORIGINAL MOS
WAS 1391 BULK FUEL. I SPENT ALOT OF TIME RIDING SHOT GUN ON CONVOYS AND AT RED BEACH.I WAS ON TWO OPS."STARLITE AND HARVEST MOON".I REMEMBER WHEN YOU CAME TO NAM IN OCT OF 65,A FRIEND OF MINE IN COMM WAS WITH YOU. IF I'AM NOT MISTAKEN IT WAS IN THE RAINEY SEASON WHEN YOU ARRIVED. I LEFT APR 66. THEY ASKED ME TO EXTEND MY TOUR IN NAM. I SAID NO THANKS.IREALLY WANTED TO SAY,WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU SMOKIN. BUT ONCE AGAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD AND THE NEW. GOOD TO CHAT WITH YA,BRO
SEMPER FI, AL T

You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ...... LOL

[albert torcini]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NamGrunt68


You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ...... LOL [/

QUOTE]WOW,I SHOULD OF KNOWN JOE T BACK THEN. I CAN RELATE TO THE HO'S AND THE BEER, WHATS WITH THE JUMP WINGS? AL T

[greensideout]

We were taught that we were to wear the uniform in a manor that honored those before us and not for ourself.

That stuck with me. Whenever I put on the Marine uniform, I reminded myself of the Marines before me, their battles and of their sacrifice that the uniform represented.

It made me want to wear it proud----for them!

Semper Fi

[albert torcini]

THATS EXACTLY RIGHT ON GREENSIDE OUT. I FEEL THE SAME WAY.
AS A MATTER OF FACT I STILL HAVE MY UNIFORM STANDING TALL.
I JUST WISH I COULD FIT INTO IT.

SEMPER FI, AL T

[NamGrunt68]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by albert torcini

Originally posted by NamGrunt68


You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ...... LOL [/

QUOTE]WOW,I SHOULD OF KNOWN JOE T BACK THEN. I CAN RELATE TO THE HO'S AND THE BEER, WHATS WITH THE JUMP WINGS? AL T

HEY JOE T !!! Tell Al about yer jump wings !!! Don't leave nuttin out !!! BSEG !!!!

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by NamGrunt68


You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ...... LOL

Yes Dane them would be "red wings" and Black wings" That's the emblems of tang tasters

Right now I have crutches under each arm and I ain't ait no tang inna while

and Daner you ole mudsucker. only vagina I got in Nam was R&R Saigon Feb 28 66 to Mar 4 66. before or after meals and One for the night for 5 days. 18 with a hard everything and money to buy the soft stuff.

Semper Fi, MoFo

[NamGrunt68]

Originally posted by USMC0311


Yes Dane them would be "red wings" and Black wings" That's the emblems of tang tasters

Right now I have crutches under each arm and I ain't ait no tang inna while

and Daner you ole mudsucker. only vagina I got in Nam was R&R Saigon Feb 28 66 to Mar 4 66. before or after meals and One for the night for 5 days. 18 with a hard everything and money to buy the soft stuff.

Semper Fi, MoFo

Damn Joe T....I always wondered why my sister just had to move to Michigan...now I know !!! LMAO....hey ya night mud sniffer...take a snort o that "Crown" fer me...if you want I'll Fed Ex ya up sum "Scotch"......... DO NOT GO UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR !!!!

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by NamGrunt68


Damn Joe T....I always wondered why my sister just had to move to Michigan...now I know !!! LMAO....hey ya night mud sniffer...take a snort o that "Crown" fer me...if you want I'll Fed Ex ya up sum "Scotch"......... DO NOT GO UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR !!!!

will do on the Crown Dane and You know wtf Schotch does to yer pine trees 10-4 on the 2nd Floor

[GyG1345]

Old Corps/New Corps? Monday Morning Thoughts....
by Dick G (Login Dick Gaines)
Forum Owner

The various debates over new Corps Vs. Old Corps have gone on since '75 (1775, that is), and continue to this day.

I have come to the conclusion that such discussions are no longer valid.

It is no longer the case that a basis for comparison exists between the Old Corps and (so-called) New Corps. This is my honest opinion, and opinion though it may be, there it is! It was none other than General (Chesty) Puller who once stated that (paraphrased--words to this effect) Old Corps/New Corps, there's just one Corps, the Marine Corps. And the old man was entirely correct, at that time.

There was at that time no fundamental difference between the Marines of the 30s and the Marines of the 40s and WW II; nor any fundamental difference between the Marines of the 50s and ....say, the early 60s. So up till and including those times there was some basis for comparison, although superficial differences did exist to one degree or another. This is no longer true.

Today, 2003, there are fundamental (not only superficial) differences between the Marines of pre-WW II years, etc., and now. Remember, our Marines come from American society. Some people have always been fond of saying that the Marines of the Corps are but a reflection of society in general--and it is within such a context that I am speaking here.

The America of the 1930s thru the very early 1960s no longer exists--it is gone! And with it the Marine Corps that many of us grew up with and loved. Now that's a fact. So, again, in my opinion, there is no longer any basis for an argument one way or the other for any discussion of "Old Corps/New Corps" as far as a comparison of today's Corps (and America) with the Corps (and America) of those glorious days long gone by.

My opinion, you are entitled to yours--but methinks your opposing views be just whistling past the cemetery--denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Various examples of opinion may be included here, both pro and con. In the end, it is still just a matter of opinion, you have yours, I have mine. Most who claim that there is no difference at the core between old and new are just denying what has occurred in America in the last forty years or so--no matter their theme claiming to be conservatives, patriots, or even Marines--I see in their rantings just more cases of this mania to be politically correct, while attacking their peers, who now and then have the courage to voice the truth, while attacking them on various points of racist, sexist, political points of one kind or another. You can compare various kinds of beer; but not beer and soda pop.

1984 has come and gone!

Semper Fidelis,
Dick Gaines
GySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952-72

[firstsgtmike]

GunnyG,

I think you better get someone on your side before the fan starts splattering it all over the wall.

So let me put it in simpler terms.

The debate, Old Corps-New Corps started in 1775. Therefore, other than MY time on active duty vs. YOUR time on active duty, or THEIR time on active duty:

When did the Old Corps end and the New Corps begin?

Anyone living who tries to claim "Old Corps" status will have at least 15 past generations of Marines to argue with.

Old Corps-New Corps is, in reality, a long running joke.

I recently read a similar satire. Part of it was that "You kids have it easy. You push a button and your phone call is connected. When I was a kid, you had to crank the phone and tell the operator what number you wanted."

Where did the "cranker" stand in the Old Corps-New Corps?

Or does a member of the Old Corps ask "What is a telephone?"

I remember a family gathering, many many years ago. My father was telling me how spoiled I was, because when HE was a boy....., then his father, my grandfather, stepped it to explain how easy my father had it, because when HE was a boy .........
At THAT point, my great grandfather entered the discussion and shut everyone up.

No, they weren't talking about the Marine Corps, but they could have been.


That's MY nickles worth.

[USMC0311]

I Do Know One Absolute Fact. The Only True Distinction is "The Old Breed" (do you know who they are?) (think about it for awhile before posting and maybe you will find a distinctive difference in the "Breeds") In effect we all are Marine Breed. You Rocket Scientists can take it from here.

Semper Fidelis, Marines