Historical questions - WWII Rank

[Mike McIntyre]

I have two historical questions:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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1<SUP>st</SUP>. My father went from the Corps as a Supply Sergeant into the Army Air Corps (Air Force) OCS. He had “5” stripes (GySgt) but would be an E-6 (SSgt) today. They also did not use the “Crossed Rifles” at that time. Even his tombstone reads, Supply Sergeant USMC – Major USAF. <o:p></o:p>
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Any insight as to what rank was a “Supply Sergeant”?<o:p></o:p>
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2<SUP>nd</SUP>.My father’s records also show that he was stationed in the Pacific toward the end of WWII. We know that he was in logistics, could type, used a teletype, and had a H.S. Diploma. But his records state “None” for combat. We know this is not correct.<o:p></o:p>
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Why would it state “None”?<o:p></o:p>

[Old Marine]

If he had 5 stripes he was a Technical Sgt which is equal to a Staff Sgt.these days. The Marine Corps added Lance Corporal (E-3), 1st Sgt (E-8), Master Gunnery Sgt and Sgt Major (E-9) in the late 1950's early 1960's. Used to be that the highest you could go in the enlisted ranks was Master Sgt. Your father must have had three stripes up and two rockers under the stripes. Tech. Sgt. In the 1950's I made Sgt and then again I made Sgt (E-5) with the crossed rifles. For some time I thought I was a permanent Sgt.

[Old Marine]

I doubt that being stationed in the Pacific qualifies a person for combat. You have to be in a combat zone.

[Mike McIntyre]

Yes, he had “three up and two down” his terminology. His discharge papers actually state, “Supply Sergeant” but today it would be an E-6 (in six years).

As for being in the Pacific, he was in Guam and was slated for Mainland, Japan when the “Bomb” was dropped. He referred to it as, “the Mop-up”. He also has the ribbon.

Thanks for the info.

[Mike McIntyre]

Gunny:

I know my father was in a “Combat Zone”. I have some info that verifies it but not his discharge papers. Hmm?

I have another question: When did Sergeants in the Corps start taking offense with the term “Sarge”? I have spoken with Viet Nam Era non-coms who said they had used the term. My father used this term, however I know that this is a NO-NO today.

Any thoughts?

[Mike McIntyre]

2nd Pay Grade

Technical Sergeant Gunnery Sergeant
Supply Sergeant Drum Major
Steward First Class
Cook First Class


In 1923 the Marine Corps aligned its rank structure with the system used in the Army. This added a pay grade, which the Corps used to create the new rank of staff sergeant. The system of seven enlisted pay grades would remain in use for over thirty years. In 1925, the technical ranks were established for the first time. In 1935, cooks and bakers were aligned into the technical ranks, giving them a logical career progression.
World War II brought an explosion of ranks and titles. It was fairly straightforward for Marines serving in line billets. For those in technical or clerical duties however, the system mushroomed into a bewildering array of rank designations. The system was streamlined somewhat by 1944. The rank system below is that used in the latter part of the war.

[Old Marine]

1st Sgts do not like the term Top as in spinning.
Sgts have always been called Sarg as far as I know. I cant think of anything else to call them except Sgt or Sarg. Maybe these kids these days have a new name for a Sgt. I understand a lot of them call the Marine Corps "The Suck" for whatever reason. In my day if you would have called the Marine Corps "The Suck" an NCO would have stepped up and knocked that person on his or her ass and the only thing they would suck is on a straw due to a broken jaw. I rest my case.

[Mike McIntyre]

Amen to that!!!

I find that disrespectful. My Dad loved the Corps, my son is going in the Corps, and ya’ll deserve ALL respect this nation can dole out.

It must be the era or culture, like some ethnicities calling each other by derogatory terms.

Respect is respect. We don’t respect people anymore. We don’t seem to respect authority, the military, our elders, religion, duty, or even life.

[Zulu 36]

1st Sgts do not like the term Top as in spinning.
Sgts have always been called Sarg as far as I know. I cant think of anything else to call them except Sgt or Sarg. Maybe these kids these days have a new name for a Sgt. I understand a lot of them call the Marine Corps "The Suck" for whatever reason. In my day if you would have called the Marine Corps "The Suck" an NCO would have stepped up and knocked that person on his or her ass and the only thing they would suck is on a straw due to a broken jaw. I rest my case.

We were taught in boot camp to never, ever, refer to a 1stSgt or Sgt Maj as "Top." I never did, but saw the results for a few that did. I still shiver.

We were also taught that addressing a MSgt or MGySgt as "Top" was up to that SNCO and usually only allowed to officers, NCOs, and sometimes junior Marines in high standing. I found that to be generally true.

I never called Army 1stSgts and Sgt Majs "Top" even though that was common and accepted. I didn't want to get into any bad habits when I went back to the fleet. They seemed to like being addressed by their full rank and never complained.

I never allowed junior Marines to address me as "Sarge" or "Corp." I worked for a SSgt who went crazy if he was addressed as "Staff" (never by me, I knew better).

The term "Sarge" is almost a required form of address in the Air Force. I hated it when in the Air Guard and insisted on "sergeant" or my full rank from subordinates.

In Vietnam, the AF people called every Marine "Sarge" as they didn't know how to read our rank insignia. I found that strange as we had to memorize the entire rank structure and insignia of all services in boot camp and I knew their correct ranks, as did most Marines. I guess when you had only a six-week basic training just teaching the AF ranks is an accomplishment.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

God help the "lad" who ever called me "Sarge", while I was a Marine. However, as a Police Sergeant, I'm used to it by now, since that is the common term, not used out of disrespect, but of affection.

My GySgt was always referred to as "Gunny". Woe be it to the Marine, when Gunny became a Master Sergeant, and later a Master Gunnery Sergeant, to call him "Top". "A top spins around and falls over on the ground. I am not a TOP, you will address me as 'Master Sergeant'.

[jryanjack]

The only MGySgt I ever worked with liked to be call Master Guns, or Master Gunny - but never, ever Top.

[10thzodiac]

I liked seeing salty S/NCO's calling 1st and 2nd Lieutenants Mister, I did notice when the Lieutenants were CO's they cut them some slack and affectionately referred to them as "Skipper". Made the Lieutenants feel like they were Captains; good for Pro and Con marks too

BTW, although legal, I never saw a S/NCO refer to a Captain as a mister !

[Zulu 36]

Most units I served in, calling lieutenants "Mister" by all hands was fairly common. Same with warrant officers, although "Gunner" was most common. I can't remember ever hearing a Marine captain called "Mister."

[quillhill]

If I could throw something in here about my grandfather since I have wondered about this rank thing, too.

Hugh (you can see the pics in my photo gallery of him from March 1944 here http://www.leatherneck.com/gallery/s...1&userid=23929) had three stripes "up" and a rocker down. He was an E-5 but his paperwork refers to him as a Staff Sergeant. Also in his paperwork it refers to him in a couple places as a Platoon Sergeant.

Mike, do you or your dad have his full records? I'll have to double check, but I don't think the discharge papers (just a couple sheets) I initially got from the National Archives listed his combat time ... I can't remember for sure, but I'll look later. I think I'll have to scan some of this stuff in from his service records later so you can see what I'm talking about. But, from what I could read, it seemed like his full records had every doggone place he ever went during his eight years in the Marine Corps.

Anyway, interesting questions. Obviously I can't comment on some of the other discussion among you fine Marines ... heh. I know usually when I speak to Marines I refer to them by their full rank as it is a rare opportunity for me to talk to Marines in person.

Anyway, Mike, would it be helpful if I posted some of my grandfather's records later? Let me know.

[Mike McIntyre]

This Site helped":

http://www.ww2gyrene.org/rank_structure.htm