Marine Conscientious Objector?????

[DWG]

For an extreme conservative like you - moderacy is probably considered highly left wing in relative terms anyway.

Absolutely; anyone left of Falwell is suspect-ya' commie liberal, ya!

[jinelson]

I have to stand with D W George on that! ROTFLMAO!

Jim

[DWG]

Reagan ran the Soviet Union into the ground? Please, you are giving him much more credit than he deserves. The Soviet Union was on the road to collapse before Reagan even assumed the Presidency. Nixon may not have been a bad president. I actually didn't think he was a bad president at all. But the Watergate scandal ruined him. I'm sorry, but I would like MY PRESIDENT to have a virtue called INTEGRITY. Something which Nixon did NOT have.

Nixon opened China and stopped a bad war.When we finally get past the watergate school of present reporters, history will not care much about a botched dirty trick. As to integrity, no politician is long in that department-not on the national level. It just depends on how well liked he/she is by the press. What would people have thought of Kennedy if they knew what the press at that time did. No president in my life time, at least, can claim they have not harbored secrets they don't want out. Most, if not all, will sell their souls for their taste of power. I think Reagan may be the most reputable man who has served in a long time. And yes, he forced the soviets, through their paranoia, to destroy their economy through the arms race and hastened, if not actually causing, their downfall by decades.
Per Colin Powell, I have admiration for his military record, but he showed nothing as far as a politician was concerned. Hell, that's actually a compliment. I think people tried to push him into the political arena and he was wise enough to decline. Rumor as to his command ability was that the plan he forwarded for Gulf War 1, was practically out of WW1, but that is just what I have heard.

[SuNmAN]

Nixon opened China and stopped a bad war.When we finally get past the watergate school of present reporters, history will not care much about a botched dirty trick. As to integrity, no politician is long in that department-not on the national level. It just depends on how well liked he/she is by the press. What would people have thought of Kennedy if they knew what the press at that time did. No president in my life time, at least, can claim they have not harbored secrets they don't want out. Most, if not all, will sell their souls for their taste of power. I think Reagan may be the most reputable man who has served in a long time. And yes, he forced the soviets, through their paranoia, to destroy their economy through the arms race and hastened, if not actually causing, their downfall by decades.
Per Colin Powell, I have admiration for his military record, but he showed nothing as far as a politician was concerned. Hell, that's actually a compliment. I think people tried to push him into the political arena and he was wise enough to decline. Rumor as to his command ability was that the plan he forwarded for Gulf War 1, was practically out of WW1, but that is just what I have heard.

I alredy said that I agree Nixon was not too bad of a President.

I also agree that Reagan was a President of strong character, decisiveness and leadership. Even though he is too conservative for my tastes, we was a great leader of our country because of his character.

[LivinSoFree]

This guy joined the reserves thinking all he had to do was go to meetings and collect a check. Supprise, Supprise, now he has to do something for the check. I doubt his clam of being a CO., its more like being a coward.

If that's the case, then his recruiter lied, his drill instructors lied, and his unit has kept him in the dark. I went in in 2004- and it was made VERY clear that being a reservist does NOT prevent you from going to combat, and in fact that it was highly likely that reservists would see deployments on a frequent basis. This was made clear my my recruiter, my drill instructors, and it's very apparent at the unit level.

Put him in an admin shop or something stateside. There are plenty of Marines who will never deploy just because of a twist of coincidences- and there are plenty others chomping at the bit to get the job done overseas. Yeah, this guy's a sh*tbird, but why waste the training on him? If they put him in a stateside, noncombatant position, he has NO case to get out, and we still get our money's worth from the training time put into him. Why waste more?

[10thzodiac]

We should look upon conscientious objection not as a scandal, but rather as a healthy sign. War will still not be replaced by more humane institutions for regulating conflict until citizens insist on principles of non-violence. John F. Kennedy once said, "War will exist until the distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige as the warrior does today."

[SuNmAN]

that only applies to REAL conscientious objectors, which are few and far between. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the so called "CO"s are really just cowards.

[SkilletsUSMC]

that only applies to REAL conscientious objectors, which are few and far between. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the so called "CO"s are really just cowards.

We had a real one on our last deployment. He was in my fire team for a time, and was a stellar Marine before he moved to a new squad He was having problems with the idea of killing. He confided in me many times, and I told him he would be ok, and that we would do our damndest not to kill anyone who didnt deserve it.

He didnt go UA like I secretly thought he would, but after he saw an insurgent die right infront of him he freaked out. He was imediately moved to the comapny clerk position, and that was OK for all partys involved. Some Marines hated him, but I was happy for him. He was a good guy, but I couldnt trust him to have my back. I still talk to him every once in a while. I still like him, but I remind him constantly that he is dumb for joining the Marine Corps Infantry...

[10thzodiac]

Libertarian = waste your vote

thats the nature of our system. Only two viable political parties.

The electoral college makes it worse.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Thomas Jeffersons letter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy

[10thzodiac]

that only applies to REAL conscientious objectors, which are few and far between. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the so called "CO"s are really just cowards.

I don't believe Mohammad Ali was a real conscientious objector, he was being smart, which in my opinion is what the majority (90%) of conscientious objectors are up too, less a few wussies.

My brother, a conscientious objector (Korean conflict) was a running back for Proviso East High School the year they took the Illinois state championship, hardly a coward or wussy; track star and professional roller skater. Later semi-pro football and baseball.

One of our cousins, a Colonel promised him a stateside CO non-combatant position in the army, a golden hair boy, like Bush, but my brother felt indirectly he would be participating in killing and declined; the 10 %.

He served two years at Ashland Federal Penitentiary, KY and I thought boot camp was bad; you should hear some of the stories he told me. I'd take my chances in the military before Federal Prison. His turn key was a former Marine Captain that disliked CO's, do I need to say more ?

Up until 2001 I use to belong to the same health club as my high school coach, a former Marine Captain. He is the same age as my brother and a jock also. He was telling me when he went through OCS that they were making line officers out of all the jocks for Korea, he quit the team when he heard that and wound up in finance, hmmm...

SF
10th

[jgorosco]

He was telling me when he went through OCS that they were making line officers out of all the jocks for Korea, he quit the team when he heard that and wound up in finance, hmmm...

You are going to have to type slower for me. Your coach was already in OCS or was going into OCS? So your brother is close to 80? I am just having problems with your story. It seems 10zzzz, that you always have story for every argument. You have been there, done that, or know someone who has. You have lived an amazing life and just think you haven't fought in any conflict. Just imagine if you have?!?!

[iamcloudlander]

How did your brother wind up in prison for being a CO?
I have known a lot of jocks that were mean as hell on a campus but throw them into combat and they were just as scared as the rest of us. I agree with JGOROSCO as to your being a know it all been there done that to every thread posted here. I had a CO in Boot Camp there was a CO in our platoon, he to had joined but wouldn't commit to doing what the rest of us did. He refused to fire the rifle at the range and he (somehow) got to stay in the Corps. After qualifying was over and we returned to our area we had three non-quals which the Platoon Commander had us turn to on and beat the hell out of them especially the CO.
I have another point to ask you about...since you seem to want us to think of you as an knowledgeable person on all subjects then why don't you pay to become a member. It seems to me that the most vocal and with huge numbers of posts ie:you simply come here and voice your opinions but don't feel you should pay the membership dues. In my opinion if everyone payed then the site could use the dues to make it better for all. Besides it is only $40 or $50 that should not make anyone run out and file bankruptcy.

[10thzodiac]

You are going to have to type slower for me. Your coach was already in OCS or was going into OCS? So your brother is close to 80? I am just having problems with your story. It seems 10zzzz, that you always have story for every argument. You have been there, done that, or know someone who has. You have lived an amazing life and just think you haven't fought in any conflict. Just imagine if you have?!?!

Jason, didn't mean to confuse anyone. When I was quitting High School to join the Marines in 1960 that same coach told me that he was a Marine Captain, later in the late 90's he told me the story about OCS, I assume it while he was at OCS, unless I misunderstood.

My brother is 74 years old, 10 years older than me. The coach could possibly be a little older, but both Korean era 1951-1957 . My brother was about 18, 1951. Astronaut Eugene Cernan, as in "The Last Man On The Moon" fame, was on my brothers HS football team, is 73 and was commissioned in 1956 after college. Does that help with the dates ?

It may be a compliment that I have had an amazing life, but if I had to do it over, it would definitely be different, excepting more women less playing soldier. Old to fast smart to late.

As far as me thinking that I have never fought in any conflict sorta amazes me too. I was at ground zero for WW III, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, The Cuban Missile Crisis. A reinforced Marine rifle company (garrison), 2nd BN, 1st Marines and my artillery battery B-1-11. The Russians had 43,000 full battle dressed troops and Castro had 270,000 troops not to mention the battle field nukes aimed at us, 12 Kiloton-range nuclear warheads mounted on Frog-3 "Luna" short-range artillery rockets. If the invasion by US forces had taken place, Soviet ground commanders had permission to launch tactical nuclear missiles at the invading US forces. As a result the US would has suffered 90-95 percent causalities, and most likely would have begun World War III. My Commanding officer, 1st Lt Skordis told us, "The American Invasion was canceled 1/2 hour before zero hour."

In August of 1964 I was with the newly formed 9th MEB, the first 7,000 Marines sent to Vietnam; we didn't know where we were going till we got there, at least none us peons knew.

Incidentally about a week or so before going to Vietnam, two corporals from my unit HQ-2-12, myself and another from S-2 had individual orders for Vietnam that were superseded by our unit going instead. When we were briefed, Colonel Crockett would only tell us it was a PCS tom a SE Asian country. I'm assuming it was Vietnam. The group I was to go with were all FO officers and FO team members, one of the Lt's was in my battery in the missile crisis. I was trying to get out of this one too, as I extended in the Marines 9 months to be with the 3rd Marine Division another 13 months, not a PCS to a SE Asian Country, breech of contract; I told the Colonel that too.

I wasn't suppose to Leave Okinawa until May of 1965, but they sent me home March 10th because I was to short to go back to Vietnam a second time with my unit, March 13th.

I managed to cheat the Grim Reaper once again before getting out. When I reported to last duty station in April of 1965, Service Battalion, 2^nd MarDiv, the First Sergeant informed me that I and Warrant Officer Lee had orders to be part of the Dominican Republic invasion.

Luckily for me, a corporal I befriended in the office gave me a heads up that I didn’t have to go. There was a division order prohibiting deployment with less than 60 days active service remaining.

A few days latter the First Sergeant called me into the office and asked me if my field uniforms had arrived from Okinawa yet, if not he had a jeep to take me to cash sales. I asked why? He said, “Because you and Warrant Officer Lee are going to the Dominican Republic”. I then asked him, what about that Division order about less than 60 days active service. He replied, "I have a wavier for you to sign."

Warrant Officer Lee was killed by a sniper that week, his first day in the Dominican Republic, survived by his wife and small children. He had twenty-two years service.

Maybe I have lived an amazing life to some and do not realize it, possibly the life the guys in the Corps use to joke around about, saying, "I have been around the world, knocked every trick twice and seen everything except the wind."

P.S. We almost purchased a home in Makakilo a few years back, until my wife found out my multi-millionaire high school crush lives in Kailua. I'd be fishing with my buddy, Jason over at Kaneohe Bay.

SF
10th

[SgtHMH]

Marines in World War I there was a Army Conscientious Objector, that went on to win the Medal Of Honor. They do have it in them to fight and do their duty and hold their uniform in high esteam. Who was this Army Soldier I talk about.

Sergeant Alvon York

So when the **** hits the fan they do their duty as history has shown.

Semper Fi

Sgt. Hoss

[10thzodiac]

How did your brother wind up in prison for being a CO?

10th: Actually my brother wanted to join the Air Force before draft age, but mom wouldn't sign for him. She talked him into studying her religion until he was of age. Unfortunately he had already started an apprenticeship; later to be his undoing. He was learning how to become a machinist, not bad in-itself but where he was doing it was, a Naval munitions plant. Once he became baptized in his CO faith, he quit that job. Then later after being drafted, when brought to trial, the state made a big deal out of that he was working in a munitions plant while studying the faith and didn't take into account that after becoming a believer (baptism) he quit that job.

Iiamcloudlander: I have known a lot of jocks that were mean as hell on a campus but throw them into combat and they were just as scared as the rest of us. I agree with JGOROSCO as to your being a know it all been there done that to every thread posted here.

10th: Only a fool is not afraid; if I may, it reminds me of a cave diving scuba axiom, "There are bold cave divers and there are old cave divers, but there are no old bold cave divers." Devils Eye Cave, Jennie Springs, Florida, March,1978 http://jc-research.com/jim/diving-al...ern-royal.html

As far as me being a know it all been there done that: If I have I will post it, if I have not I won't. If someone feels they been left out, "I've been or done to much", is that my my problem

iamcloudlander: I had a CO in Boot Camp there was a CO in our platoon, he to had joined but wouldn't commit to doing what the rest of us did. He refused to fire the rifle at the range and he (somehow) got to stay in the Corps. After qualifying was over and we returned to our area we had three non-quals which the Platoon Commander had us turn to on and beat the hell out of them especially the CO.

10th: You see that, "I never knew" any CO's in my hitch, just some malingering Staff NCO's that feigned injuries or maladies trying to avoid the Cuban Crisis or Vietnam.

What's so hard about that: You have mice, I have beavers, !

iamcloudlander: I have another point to ask you about...since you seem to want us to think of you as an knowledgeable person on all subjects then why don't you pay to become a member. It seems to me that the most vocal and with huge numbers of posts ie:you simply come here and voice your opinions but don't feel you should pay the membership dues. In my opinion if everyone payed then the site could use the dues to make it better for all. Besides it is only $40 or $50 that should not make anyone run out and file bankruptcy.

10th: Speaking of knowledgeable persons on all subjects

Quote iamcloudlander: "since you seem to want us to think of you as an knowledgeable person on all subjects then why don't you pay to become a member ?"

10th: I got news for you iamcloudlander I've been a "Gold" paying member for a long time now! Maybe not a knock'em dead Platinum member, but at my age I don't even buy green bananas; I know the only thing I can't do, is not die.

Addressing what you feel as to my huge number of posts and opinions, "as long as I'm a paying member that's nobody's business excepting mine!"

Which Way Is Up

"Not worrying what the other other guy is doing but worrying about what you are doing!"

Simply put: You may recall you gym teacher telling you that when you are running in a race, not to look at what everyone else is doing, concentrate on what you are doing.

Anytime anyone thinks that I'm acting like I'm a knowledgeable person on all subjects, please humor me that I am

SF
Zody