The Cost of Doing One's Duty

[jgorosco]

Now I have heard it all!!! 10zoo, Now you are speaking on behalf of someone from the past that you Know for a fact that would not agree with Our President now and would agree with someone else. You Cir! are true, bonafide F*cking Idiot!! How in the Hell you are still allowed on this site is amazing. Go ahead and come back with an article a qoute and just more Bvllsh*t from your mouth. To be honest I can't believe I wasted my time on you.

[10thzodiac]

If freedom of speech upsets you, then you served for nothing and are in the wrong country.

May I suggest Saudi Arabia, I understand they have torture too.

[OLE SARG]

Let me add to that - mccain is a fruitcake!!!!!!! Anyone who would make the statements he did about the mistreated and misguided sheetheads, has to be brain-damaged!!!!!!!!!!! Yea, let me add that our congress has become a den of thieves and crooks, i.e., jefferson d-la (everyone keeps $90,000 in cash in their freezers + caught on tape taking a bribe!!!!!, foley, the pervert, r, swimmer kennedy d-ma, who got away with murder, dirty harry, d-az, the land barron (gets 1 and a half million dollars from a piece of property he sold 3 years ago, and the list goes on. politicians, most of them, today have but one goal when running for office, to hell with the people, hooray for me and how much money I can make PLUS THAT GREAT RETIREMENT PROGRAM!!! SCREW ANYBODY THAT TRIES TO DEFEND THESE *******S!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

McCain, was prisoner of war in North Vietnam for six years; friends say McCain speaks rarely of beatings and other abuse he endured, but that those experiences lend particular authority to his stand against American maltreament of detainees.

In a letter to Pres. Bush and Sen. McCain, the military leaders called torture and cruel treatment "ineffective methods, because they induce prisoners to say what their interrogators want to hear, even if it is not true, while bringing discredit upon the United States".

The McCain proposal would mandate that all branches of the U.S. military use only the U.S. Army's Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation (FM 34-52), which prohibits use of torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by any U.S. government agency, to define the limits of prisoner custody.

[greensideout]

Let me add to that - mccain is a fruitcake!!!!!!! Anyone who would make the statements he did about the mistreated and misguided sheetheads, has to be brain-damaged!!!!!!!!!!! Yea, let me add that our congress has become a den of thieves and crooks, i.e., jefferson d-la (everyone keeps $90,000 in cash in their freezers + caught on tape taking a bribe!!!!!, foley, the pervert, r, swimmer kennedy d-ma, who got away with murder, dirty harry, d-az, the land barron (gets 1 and a half million dollars from a piece of property he sold 3 years ago, and the list goes on. politicians, most of them, today have but one goal when running for office, to hell with the people, hooray for me and how much money I can make PLUS THAT GREAT RETIREMENT PROGRAM!!! SCREW ANYBODY THAT TRIES TO DEFEND THESE *******S!!!!

SEMPER FI,

You sure are getting me excited for the coming elections---LMAO !

I agree with your attitude, as I feel the same. None are worth my vote.

I keep looking for the "neither" box on the ballots.

[Zulu 36]

He would have applauded the Supreme Court's ruling in June against the Bush administration's position on allowing military tribunals to withhold evidence from prisoners of war, as depriving the accused of due process guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.

I'm not certain that Jefferson would recognize war as he knew it in the 18th Century to exist in war as we know it now in the 21st Century.

Be that as it may, I doubt seriously that Jefferson would applaud any such decision by the US Supreme Court as under Article Three of the US Constitution, the Supreme Court was not granted that authority. SCOTUS almost always exceeds its Constituional authority anytime they decide a case these days.

SCOTUS took the authority as arbiter of consitutional questions upon themselves in Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137 (1803), thus usurping Congressional perogatives. Sadly Congress then, and Congress now, usually allows SCOTUS and the "inferior courts" to continue usurping their authority. Usage now has almost the full force of Consitiutional law.

Congress is not ignorant of this usurpage. Personally I think it is a deliberate act to throw "blame" for keeping or dumping unpopular laws onto someone not accountable to The People through election. " Congress often exempts legislation from judicial review when it serves their purpose (see 99.9% of their earmark legislation).

So, I don't think Jefferson would approve of most of what is happening these days. Especially the reluctance to defend and preserve our nation from invaders, even (and especially) if it means fighting the invaders in their own countries.

Terrorists and PWs are not citizens of our country. They do not have, or deserve, the rights guaranteed to those of us lucky to be citizens of the United States of America. Anyone who says otherwise seems to be more concerned about those scumbags who want to kill us then they are about us.

As you quote Jefferson (from what source I do not know), "as far as possible to alleviate the inevitable miseries of war by treating captives as humanity and national honor requires." As far as possible I agree with. But not to the detriment of our citizens. Pick a side. Us or them. If them - move there and convert to Islam.

I know what country I fought for and it wasn't to give the enemies of my nation aid, comfort, or the Bill of Rights.

[jgorosco]

If freedom of speech upsets you, then you served for nothing and are in the wrong country.

May I suggest Saudi Arabia, I understand they have torture too.

No Freedom of Speech doesn't upset me. It is you that upsets me!! All the fvckin' time with your political bullsh*t!! Do you ever get tired of listening to yourself. How about once in awhile talk about Marine Corps stories.

To me, it seems it is you that has a problem with America, so why don't you try another country that caters to your wants and needs.

[10thzodiac]

As you quote Jefferson (from what source I do not know), "as far as possible to alleviate the inevitable miseries of war by treating captives as humanity and national honor requires." As far as possible I agree with. But not to the detriment of our citizens. Pick a side. Us or them. If them - move there and convert to Islam. I know what country I fought for and it wasn't to give the enemies of my nation aid, comfort, or the Bill of Rights.

They might start thinking what is good for you.

It could be argued that the terrorists attacked our Military Industrial Complex (MIC), not Americans per se; namely the banking (TwinTowers), military (Pentagon) and government (Capitol). Did you ever really ask yourself why those targets?


Just think if Usama really thought 9/11 the American people were his real enemy instead of the MIC. I wouldn’t of wanted to live around any nuclear reactors and their in the open waste storage. Could you imagine if they took out Chicago's water pumping station offshore? It is in the open in Lake Michigan minutes from our airport, not to mention Zion Nuclear Reactor a little farther.

If the opposite was true, that if the Middle Easterners were over here exploiting our oil, we would probably do the same to them. Does that make any sense?

No, Usama has probably read Sun Tzu's "Art of War", "Let the enemy do voluntarily what you would have him do by force” i.e. bankruptcy. Do not laugh, 9 billion a month and we are still at square one and no end in sight. Remember Usama bankrupted the Soviet Union in Afghanistan; remember that is when Usama and the Taliban were our friends, lol.

If we pulled out of Iraq now the Sunnies and the Shiites would fight it out and after there would be no room left for foreign insurgents (terrorists).

We have to start spending that 9 Billion a month Iraqi War money on homeland security instead, because the person with suitcase nuke is already out there.

The Jefferson source in my last post is from the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Wheather you know it or not you served a country of laws, even though you may not arbitrarily like some of them, but that is what makes this country great. No one is above the law, not you, or King George.

As far as you having me converting to Islam and moving there (there ? I thought they had Islamics here too, I know you thought they are all over there, after all this is your America), no thanks I find that Religions harden hearts and enslave minds, I have enough problems here already.

Have a good Constitution

Semper Fidelis

10th

P.S. jgorosco, I didn't forget you, I'm just ignoring ignoranuses today.

[Zulu 36]

Zodiac,

Your writings read exactly like the Soviet propaganda I read in years past. Do you carry your CP card still?

Also, the Philadelphia Inquirer is not a "source" for quotations. Which of Jefferson's writings or speeches was the source of that statement, and/or what scholarly document can I find it in? One of the house organs for American communists (aka: liberals) does not count as a scholary document on the best of days.

[ahanlon]

I'm new here and so I almost hesitate to get into this argument without being properly introduced, but what the hell. When the American colonies were trying to separate from Great Britain, didn't Jefferson argue in the Declaration of Independence that the rights of men (meaning both genders, of course) were inherent and inalienable? That no government or monarchy had the authority to either grant them or take them away, because, as he put it, they were god-given? If rights are inherent and inalienable, then everyone has these rights regardless of citizenship. If we believe this, then we are bound to respect the rights of everyone as if they too were Americans. We can't just retreat into our own prosperous little worlds and assume that rights we take for granted are ours because of our citizenship. To do that would be to concede that our rights are determined and controlled by the government. That's unamerican guys. Our personal freedoms, including the right to our opinions freely expressed in any kind of debate, are kind of basic to who we are as Americans. In fact, the constitution was written in that spirit, right? Accordingly, we can't assume that anyone imprisoned in gitmo is guilty until evidence is produced in a court of law. When the Bush administration declares that some people are exempt from the right to a fair trial, or that the Geneva Convention accords do not apply, then they are also saying that you have rights only because the government grants them. That position subverts our own law of the land, and the Administration should be held accountable for its attempt to subvert the constitution.

For two hundred years our country has been seen as a beacon of hope. Thanks to the Bush administration that's all over now.

By the way, I don't see why 10thZodiac shouldn't post articles from any source he wants, after all Drifter posts what seems like an endless stream of right wing propaganda all the time. Nobody says anything about that. I make these remarks with all due respect, of course. Like I say, I'm new here, although I've been reading a lot of posts over the last week or so.

When I was on active duty I served with all kinds of people who had all kinds of opinions and who were from everywhere. They all had in common either Parris Island or San Diego. They all had in common the color green. In many ways the Marine Corps was way ahead of the rest of the country in terms of integration and recognition of "diversity." I was very young when I enlisted and the first lesson I learned about tolerance for differences of others was in the Marine Corps. That lesson has not been superseded by any experience in the civilian world since.

[GunnyL]

You notice the article in question comes from the Communist Times, otherwise referred to as the New York Times and we all know that 10thzodiak is as far to the left as you can get.
I like how he has intimate knowledge of what Thomas Jefferson would have wanted. This is not the world that Thomas Jefferson lived in Numb Nuts so don't go around trying to speak for someone who's been dead more than 150 years. I don't believe you've ever had any intimate conversations with the man and that he told you what he would have wanted in the world we live in today.
You prove everyday that the Enemy within is the most dangerous foe facing this country today.
10thzodiak, Ahmadinejad and Kim's boy!

[ahanlon]

Hi Gunnie,

You know Thomas Jefferson actually wanted us to know what he thought. That's why he wrote books. Please allow me to recommend one: Notes on the State of Virginia, edited by Willian Peden; W.W. Norton and Company NY 1972. ISBN: 0-393-00647-6.

In it you'll find lots of interesting topics, including a discussion on the natural right of humans to live free lives balanced against the necessity to establish a government as protections against anarchy. That's a good one. Jefferson also writes about the separation of church and state in this book, not to protect religion, but to protect the government. Interesting stuff, I tell ya. In spite of the 18th century locutions, the book is not hard to read as Jefferson was a good writer. He wrote lots of other stuff too, including over 50,000 letters and, oh yeah, the Declaration of Independence. If you take the time to read this stuff, then, yeah, it's possible to know what he thought, because while you read, the intervening 150 years or so melt away and you have access to Jefferson's mind. One of the reasons he may have written so much is so that it would be possible for future generations (that's us) to speculate about what he might have thought about current events. That's how culture evolves: the past feeds the present.

By the way Gunnie, I'm curious about why you think Zod is so far to the left. To the left of what? Where do you think the center is?

[10thzodiac]

You notice the article in question comes from the Communist Times, otherwise referred to as the New York Times and we all know that 10thzodiak is as far to the left as you can get.
I like how he has intimate knowledge of what Thomas Jefferson would have wanted. This is not the world that Thomas Jefferson lived in Numb Nuts so don't go around trying to speak for someone who's been dead more than 150 years. I don't believe you've ever had any intimate conversations with the man and that he told you what he would have wanted in the world we live in today.
You prove everyday that the Enemy within is the most dangerous foe facing this country today.
10thzodiak, Ahmadinejad and Kim's boy!

No GunnyL, I'm sorry to disappoint you the article does not come from the Communist Times (Pravda) but from Philadelphia Media Holdings L.L.C., Brian P. Tierney a Republican activist who represented many local groups in the Philadelphia area. Do you feel a little silly now ? http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/n...l/15592459.htm

Philadelphia Inquirer Founded June 1, 1829, The Philadelphia Inquirer is America's third-oldest surviving daily newspaper.

What’s with you and Lance Colonel Death From Above, every time I quote our Constitution, Bill of Rights, Supreme Court Decisions, General Butler, Senator McCain and other American Icons, all of a sudden I’m a Pinko Communist ? Between the two of you, I expected you would have more intellect than that. What is your problem and please spare us the child like rhetorics and name-calling? Try conducting yourselves like Marines deeper than your tattoos when you post!.

SF

10th

[GunnyL]

10thzodiak the original artical you posted is labeled New York Times Editorial dated 11 October and that is the artical I was referring to. Do you feel silly now. You don't reference an artical in the Jefferson post, so you're plagerizing someone elses work, but I should have known, that's usually the way you post; with other peoples words, thanks for finally giving the author credit.
I don't really care who wrote the artical, Thomas Jefferson didn't live in 21st Century America and his words are only indicative of his thoughts as they were relevant to the time he occupied this earth. My views on a lot of things have changed as the world around me changes. Things that were relevant during my early years are no longer relevant today. So taking someones words out of context from another period in time and trying to indicate that they would feel the same way about a situation you try to apply them to is simply dishonest.
As for ahanlan, Gunny is spelled with a Y not IE. And judging by your profile and the fact that you list UC Berkeley you would have no way of knowing what the center is. Also, it's Camp Zukeran not Sukerin.
I don't cut and paste other peoples words, my thoughts are my own. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the New York Times is out of touch with reality and yes, very far to the Left!

[jgorosco]

HEY 10ZOO HOW IS THIS FOR ACTING LIKE A MARINE "GO FVCK YOURSELF NUMBNUTS"
I could give a rats azz if you have your own thoughts or use other peoples thoughts as your own. I am just sick of you turning this Marine site into a political zoo!!

Lance Colonel Out