Bill to Make Flag Burning Illegal

[USMCgrunt0331]

Check out this article I found on Yahoo. Call, email or write your senators and let them know you support this bill!

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...o/flag_burning

[USMCgrunt0331]

You know, you'd think this would be a pretty hot topic in the media, but I haven't heard a word about it. Maybe if the media would slack off a little on the Natalie girl and report some stuff that pertains to what goes on in this country, they could rally up some support for the bill and make it an issue. But I bet the majority of Americans don't even know about the bill.

[thedrifter]

House approves flag-burning amendment

Uphill battle seen in Senate
By Laurie Kellman
ASSOCIATED PRESS

3:14 p.m. June 22, 2005

WASHINGTON – A constitutional amendment to outlaw flag burning cleared the House Wednesday but faced an uphill battle in the Senate. An informal survey by The Associated Press suggested the vote there could be close.
The 286-130 outcome was never in doubt in the House, which had passed the measure or one like it five times in recent years. The amendment's supporters expressed optimism that a Republican gain of four seats in last November's election could produce the two-thirds approval needed in the Senate as well after four failed attempts since 1989.

But an AP survey Wednesday found 34 senators on record as opposing the amendment – the exact number needed to defeat it, barring a change in position. Democratic Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Ken Salazar of Colorado declined to state their positions Wednesday.

House debate fell along familiar lines over whether the amendment strengthened the Constitution or ran afoul of its free-speech protections.

Supporters said there was more public support than ever because of emotions following the 2001 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. They said detractors are out of touch with public sentiment.

"Ask the men and women who stood on top of the Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment."

Critics accused the amendment's supporters of exploiting the attacks to trample the right to free speech.

"If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents." said Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., whose district includes the site of the former World Trade Center.

The last time the Senate voted on the amendment the tally was 63 in favor and 37 against, four votes short of the two-thirds majority needed.

Now, with more than two dozen new members, a four-seat Republican gain in the last election and a public still stung by the terrorist attacks in 2001, activists on both sides say the Senate could be within a vote or two of passage.

But the amendment's prospects faded late Wednesday when Democratic Sens. Maria Cantwell of Washington and Mark Pryor of Arkansas revealed that they would oppose it.

Possible presidential contenders who have supported the amendment in the past include Evan Bayh, D-Ind., Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., and John McCain, R-Ariz.

Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., a likely presidential candidate, has said he would oppose the amendment.

The proposed one-line amendment to the Constitution reads, "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." For the language to be added to the Constitution, it must be approved by two-thirds of those present in each chamber, then ratified within seven years by at least 38 state legislatures.

The amendment is designed to overturn a 5-4 Supreme Court ruling in 1989 that flag burning is a protected free-speech right. That ruling threw out a 1968 federal statute as well as flag-protection laws in 48 states. The law was a response to anti-Vietnam War protesters setting fire to American flags at demonstrations.

The Senate could consider the measure as soon as next month.



Associated Press Writer Jim Abrams contributed to this report.



The amendments are S.J. Res 12 and H.J. Res 10.



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On the Net:
House of Representatives: www.house.gov
Senate: www.senate.gov



Ellie

[mrbsox]

This burns my a$$, as well as breaks my heart, as I'm sure it does you. The hardest part of it is I fell we HAVE to let the burning happen.

It is part of the Constitution that we swore to support and defend. Part of that constirution is the freedom of speach, expression, and ALL that goes with it.

What kind of statement for democracy would it make, if we ban this 'expression'.

Is the first ammendment OK, only as long as we want it to be ??

With a tear in my eye, and aching in my heart, I have to say this resolution is WRONG, and UN-constitutional.

Semper Fi

[Joseph P Carey]

Ah! Yes! The lines are being drawn. The House of Representatives has passed the Flag bill. Now we will see:

"The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." Supporters say the flag should be protected because it symbolizes the freedoms many have died to defend. Flag burning "is a challenge to the institution that defends liberty," Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Ga., said. "Our flag deserves to be respected and protected because it is more than just star-studded fabric."

Opponents warn the amendment would alter the Bill of Rights to exclude an expression of free speech. It "elevates a symbol of freedom over freedom itself," Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., said. "Once we decide to limit freedom of speech, limitations on freedom of the press and freedom of religion may not be far behind."

Yes! The Democrats are lining up in great numbers already to defend the burning of the Flag! I can see Kerry now, a zippo in one hand, and the Flag of the USA in the other. "Senator Kerry Reporting for duty Sir!" Flip! Zip!

It seems that the Democrats can not make a statement without destroying something of value that belongs to someone else. The democrates make such a big deal of crumbling a few pages of the Koran, but when it comes to something like the American Flag, that is just a expression of their anger to burn that 'dirty old rag'.

Screw you Democrats any way! I have been a registered Independent since 1978, shortly, I may change that. I was a registered Democrat until President Carter signed the Blanket Pardon, now, for the first time, I may become a Republican. You guys are too far off the deep Left end even for me.

[CHOPPER7199]

THIS IS BULL CRAP, THE BILL SHOULD BE PASTED THIS TIME AROUND AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALONG TIME AGO. FREEDOM YES, BUT TO BURN THE SYMBOL ON OUR OWN SOIL BY OUR OWN IDIOTS IS SENDING THE WRONG MESSAGE ACROSS THE WATERS AND SURE IS SENDING ME A BAD ONE ALSO. LETS JUST RIP DOWN THE MONUMENTS THEN, IF THATS THE WAY PEOPLE FEEL, LET THEM LEAVE AND FIND SOME PLACE ELSE. I WONDER HOW MANY SERVERED THERE COUNTRY THAT ARE DOING THIS? JUST AN OLD GRUNTS OPINION

[USMCgrunt0331]

You gotta be kidding me mrbsox.

Along with everything there must be limits, same reason just cause we have the 1st amendment you can't yell fire in a theater, tell someone your gonna kill someone, print libel and slander someone, can't burn animals or other crazy cult things just cause it's freedom of religion, can't curse in school, or on many beaches now, can't smoke pot just cause your expressing yourself, a military officer can't talk bad about the president, these are only a few examples of tons of how there are limitations to the 1st amendment. Why shouldn't burning the flag be a limitation?

What if some Muslims decide they want to come to Arlington cemetary and start spray-painting tombstones or ****ing on graves of heros? That's just freedom of expression right?

[mrbsox]

Rebuttal; of an obvious sensitive subject.

What is it that OUR flag represents ??

More than just the nation herself. More than the people that live in her, and have served her. More that the blood of the red, the purity of the white, and honor of the blue.

She represents, to me, everthing that I long to see in the world.
The ability to 'persue happiness', without intervention, without the fear of persecution, the police knocking down your door, haveing to have 'papers' just to walk the streets.
The right to protect your property, your family.
To own property.
Free enterprise.
Elected government.

All of the above.... AND MORE.

Of the people
by the people
and FOR the people

Passing a bill such as this, in my opinion, sets the 'symbol of America', above America herself, and her people.
I never said it wasn't desicration. I never said it was something I didn't mind watching. I said, that I swore an oath to support all that the constitution stands for. Not just 'the letter of the law', but also the SPIRIT of the law.

Laws are passed (or SHOULD be) to protect the common PEOPLE. Yelling fire in a theatre is detrimental to the COMMON GOOD of the people. Spray painting (and p!$$!n on) things is VANDELISIM, in the eyes of the law. Yes, I personally would consider it BLASHPHEMY, and take steps to stop it.

Lets not confuse RIGHT, with LEGAL. We as a nation, must not start legistating MORALITY (as we already do to much of). My soul cries every time I see our nations colors burning in protest. But that doesn't change the fact that our forefathers wanted the nation to enjoy the freedoms that we have. Not just the ones that are popular.

And, as was said in reply above
"Once we decide to limit freedom of speech, limitations on freedom of the press and freedom of religion may not be far behind."

What would be next ??
The RIGHT to keep and bear arms ??
The RIGHT against unlawfull entry ??
The RIGHT to be tried by a jury of your peers ??

Where would it end.

I pledege allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
One Nation
Under GOD
Indivisable
with liberty and justice
for ALL

... till death do us part

[lucien2]

They should make it legal to assault someone who is burning the American Flag, that would stop any public flag burning for sure!

[USMCgrunt0331]

The American flag is something many have died defending. Your main point is it's unconstitutional, mine is that there always has to be limit's to things, even the constitution, which is why there are laws to limit parts of the 1st Amendment now. Yes we have the right to religion, but like I said, you can't burn animals for a sacrifice, it's illegal, yes we have the right to bear arms, but there are restrictions to concealed weapons, assault weapons and other laws pertaining to your right to bear arms. Yes, you've got freedom of press, but you can' t knowingly print libel and slander other people, it's illegal. Yes, there are laws against unlawful entry-unless your suspected of terrorism, then there's the Patriot Act. Freedom of assembly-yes, but there are restrictions to that also, you have to get permits and the type of demonstration has to be approved. You can find a restriction or limitation to almost if not every law and bill there is. Are you saying all the limitations to the amendment I mentioned above should be taken away? Cause you can't say you want a limitation on one thing or part of something, but then to do it on another is wrong and taking away from your bill of rights. The flag is the symbol of our country, why shouldn't it be vandalism to desecrate the symbol of our country? It could be rightfully considered as a hate crime to burn the flag, just as it's considerd a hate crime to burn a cross.

[radio relay]

...The leftwing traitors, judges, and democrats construe flag burning as "free speech". However, burning an Unholy Koran is somehow a "hate crime".
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Burned Korans Found at Va. Islamic Center

By Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 17, 2005; Page B05

Members of an Islamic center in southwest Virginia returned from a prayer meeting Saturday and made a shocking discovery: partially burned copies of the Koran had been left in a shopping bag by the center's front door.

Police in Blacksburg said yesterday that they are investigating the incident and trying to determine whether it was a hate crime. "We are taking it very seriously and are looking at all possibilities," Lt. Joe Davis said.
etc, etc....
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[thedrifter]

MIKE CHRISTAIN AND THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
Wayne Leeper



From a speech made by Capt. John S. McCain, USN, (Ret) who represents Arizona in the U.S. Senate:

As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian.

Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967.

Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country-and our military-provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.

Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours. Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.

The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag.

He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to pledge allegiance to our flag and our country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.



"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

Ellie

[OLE SARG]

Well said USMCgrunt0331 - and I agree. They are making all the fuss about the koran or whatever the hell it is (it raised a fever with our bunch of dummies in Washington, D.C., when someone mentioned flushing the koran) and nothing has been said much about OLE GLORY.

It ain't law but someone burns OLE GLORY in front of me and they are going to get an ASS WHIPPING!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,
OLE SARG

[Gunny McMillan]

I'm kind of in the middle of this issue.

One on hand, seeing a burning flag would bring a tear to my eye. And make me want to stomp the guts out of whoever was burning it.

On the other, I do believe in freedom of expression, no matter how asinine that expression may be.

To me, the pride I have resides in what the flag stands for, and what it represents...Not the cloth material it's made of. All of the hippies in the world burning all of the American flags in the world is not going to change what the flag means and represents to me.

[radio relay]

"So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country."