Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed

[ivalis]

We were so successful that a Repulican Guard general is now running Falujia.

Don't put words in my mouth you ignorant fool.

[arzach]

Originally posted by ivalis
We were so successful that a Repulican Guard general is now running Falujia.

Don't put words in my mouth you ignorant fool.

Start the name callin' badbreath...you can't argue facts so you sling crap....that Republican Guard Gen. is under Marine Corps command to there smooth.

[greensideout]

I think we are all jumping to premature judgements and should wait till some facts come in before we start the trial.

I take and edit a lot of photos. I could make this look like it happened in St. Peters Square. What I'm saying is that we really have nothing to make a judgement on except the pics and words of the press---both leave question.

I have to go with the Gunny in this repect, before we burn the poor dumb followers shown in the pics, let's find out who the catalyst of this event was and how it came about.

GSO

[d c taveapont]

Sayin its going to be a long drawn out war, like none other seen before..... I seem to remember another war that had that same tone..damn i must be slippin....but i'm thinking it was R.V.N....

[arzach]

Originally posted by d c taveapont
Sayin its going to be a long drawn out war, like none other seen before..... I seem to remember another war that had that same tone..damn i must be slippin....but i'm thinking it was R.V.N....

No comparison Donnie...RVN had a corrupt government in place, switched hands coup after coup. That war would have been won after Tet '68 if the anti-war activists(fonda,xlinton,kerry,hayden,etc.)hadn't aided the North. No ho chi minh trail....this crap will end, the whole of Iraq isn't in open rebellion...just the radical al-sadrs and al-qaeda fighters.

[greensideout]

arzach, True but, Iraq is just a first step to turn the terror that is worldwide. I don't think that our generation will see the end of this war. I would like to be wrong.

[arzach]

Originally posted by greensideout
arzach, True but, Iraq is just a first step to turn the terror that is worldwide. I don't think that our generation will see the end of this war. I would like to be wrong.

The terrorist operate worldwide now, they are here in our country as we peck on our keyboards. These people(animals suits them better)have to be stopped, we can't just slap their wrists like before. Befriending sadman was a gig that was to aid our recovery of the hostages in Iran in '79, bad move, but the game was played that way then. We have no other choice but to confront this evil now, if anyone knows of a better way to insure the continuation of our Country and way of life, clue me in. I don't want to hear about past mistakes or reasons why these animals hate us; I really don't care if they do or don't. I do know I'm too damn old to learn arabic!

We have our 'hand', now we gotta play it the best way we can.

[greensideout]

I agree, I was just saying that it will take a generation or two to change the mindset of our foe.

[namgrunt]

Drudge has a New York Times article on link, which states that four unidentified mid level interrogators may have been at the bottom of this fiasco. Two are supposed to be U.S. intelligence officers, and the other two are "civilian contractors" serving the same intelligence function. There was an alleged usurpation of the normal chain of command within the MP unit involved, with enlisted personnel following possible illegal orders. It is not clear.

Any way you cut it, we end up on the wrong end of this incident. The Brits have their own problems of a similar nature to deal with. So, put your hipboots on folks, 'cause it's going to get deep.

[d c taveapont]

arzach. i was refering to RVN as in corrupt government, as in IRAQS saddam .....Now don't get me wrong bro but i do think that both governments were corrupt...and in the end i don't think that anything will change. but we'll all have to wait on this one....by the way i have a bro in 2/5 that was there and he'll be HOME this sat the 8th.....The bro is my cousin...you Marines take it easy.....the mouse is out.

[kentmitchell]

Considering the nature of the abuse, I wonder if the word "probed" isn't unfortunate. Or pretty literal.

[kentmitchell]

Re army S/Sgt Chip Frederick:
He says he didn't have any guidelines. Not much of an excuse to do what he and the others did. They had to have some guidelines on being a human being.
Besides, you can really hammer a guy physically and mentally without that kind of crap.
Anyone who attended the USMC Rite of Passage on Lovely Parris Island knows what I'm talking about.

[SheWolf]

Originally posted by arzach


No comparison Donnie...RVN had a corrupt government in place, switched hands coup after coup. That war would have been won after Tet '68 if the anti-war activists(fonda,xlinton,kerry,hayden,etc.)hadn't aided the North. No ho chi minh trail....this crap will end, the whole of Iraq isn't in open rebellion...just the radical al-sadrs and al-qaeda fighters.

if it was 1968 I don't think you can include Kerry in there as he was in Nam in 68, I think,,,,

[Sgt Sostand]

we for get about the Americans that they Burn and Hang across a Bridge war is hell but some how i dont think that they are tell it all in iraq you dont know who is who just like some other place if you know what i mean

[usmc4669]

The Brit's did it? I looked at the pictures that was posted and for some reason the prisoners looked a little lite skinned to be Iraqis, and the Tee-Shirt he was wearing didn't make sense to me, could these be doctored up pictures, or made to look like prisoners being mistreated?


May 3 2004
PROOF THAT ABUSE PICS WERE REAL
By Paul Byrne And Stephen White
THE two soldiers who disclosed shocking photos of British troops abusing an Iraqi last night rejected claims the shots were fakes.
SHOCKING: The Mirror revelations of abuse and,
right, hooded prisoner with gun pointed at his head
They insisted pictures they gave the Mirror showing a hooded prisoner being urinated on and battered with rifle butts were real.
CLAIM: Floppy hats as worn by this soldier hitting
the helpless prisoner in the groin are rarely,
if ever, used by British troops serving in Iraq
PROOF: Troops wear the same style of hat arriving
in Basra last year. The men in this picture have
no connection with the disclosures of abuse
Referred to as Soldier A and Soldier B, one of the pair said: "This happened, it is not a hoax and the Army knows a lot more has happened." Soldier A added: "I was there, I saw what happened."
The men from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment spoke out after BBC defence correspondent Paul Adams and Tory defence spokesman Nicholas Soames suggested the pictures were fake.
Adams claimed he had been told of inconsistencies in the shots by "sources close to the regiment".
And Soames criticised the Mirror for publishing them when, he said, "there was clearly a question mark over their veracity".
But yesterday an unnamed officer told GMTV that senior ranks had turned a "blind eye" to mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.
"People were literally getting serious beating or kickings... you're talking broken ribs, punctured lungs sort of thing."
Asked whether incidents such as those depicted in the photographs had occurred, he replied: "Yes, I'm sure it has. I know. Yes. Yes."
And Sky TV defence analyst Francis Tusa insisted there was no evidence to suggest the pictures were fake.
Daily Mirror editor Piers Morgan yesterday defended publication of the photos, which sparked a worldwide outcry, in Saturday's paper.
He said: "There was clearly a small rogue element of soldiers who committed totally unacceptable acts against Iraqi civilians.
"Acts which have made our battle to win the hearts and minds of this country's people so much more difficult.
"The Mirror makes no apology for exposing this outrageous and unlawful behaviour, which has been common knowledge among disgusted British servicemen in Basra for many months.
"The vast majority of our troops in Iraq have done an outstandingly brave job in incredibly difficult circumstances and the Mirror will always support our soldiers unequivocally, even though we opposed the political decision to wage this war."
The two squaddies admit they cannot answer questions regarding minor details in the photos, which were taken months ago.
But here they respond to the allegations they are fake.

CLAIM: The man's T-shirt was too clean and not of a type worn in that part of Iraq.
REALITY: Soldier B: "We saw dozens of Iraqis wearing exactly those T-shirts." Soldier A: "The man was wearing some sort of Arab dress over his T-shirt and it was ripped off during his arrest."
CLAIM: The man's legs are not in a foetal position as they would have been if he had been attacked in a sensitive region.
REALITY: Soldier A: "That's how he was. I can't say why they aren't. His arms were tied behind him."
It appears the victim, who had a sack over his head, would not have been prepared for the blow.
CLAIM: The webbing and pouches worn by the soldier pictured urinating on the victim aren't very full or even well used.
REALITY: Soldier A: "On raids, kit wasn't the issue. We had also returned to our compound, the soldier might have removed stuff."
CLAIM: Rarely did QLR troops wear floppy jungle hats in Iraq. Though all had them, they were encouraged to wear either berets or helmets.
REALITY: Soldier B: "We wore floppy hats all the time. A beret was too hot, helmets cumbersome."
The Mirror has seen pictures of QLR troops, including themselves, in Basra in floppy hats.
CLAIM: No divisional mark is visible below the Union flag on the rifle-butting soldier's left arm. If he was in Iraq, he should have also had a divisional marking, a triangle.
REALITY: Soldier A: "We weren't going around sewing badges on. I might have had one shirt with the correct badges which I'd get out if I was on parade. The others had no badges. Perhaps just a Union flag."
CLAIM: The truck, the soldiers' uniforms and boots, and the Iraqi are too clean.
REALITY: Soldier A: "That's the way it was."
CLAIM: The SA80 in the picture is allegedly a Mark One. All troops in Iraq had Mark IIs. The rifle in the pics has no shoulder strap - unusual for troops in Iraq.
REALITY: Soldier A: "I was carrying an SA80-A2. I think the one in the picture is that model as well. I can't explain why it may not be.
"Some soldiers wore rifle slings, many others didn't.
"Some found that in a situation where you might have to open fire a sling made moving the weapon to the firing position very awkward."
CLAIM: A rifle in the picture was too clean, with no scratches or marks.
REALITY: Soldier A: "We cleaned our rifles all the time. It could have been cleaned that afternoon."
CLAIM: The truck appears to be a Bedford model, rather than a Leyland, which was the type the QLR had in Iraq.
REALITY: Soldier A: "It was a four-ton truck, I'm not sure what make. We always used that sort of truck when we were on raids as did other units. It was standard practice."
CLAIM: The sandbag on the Iraqi's head is too clean and looks almost ironed. Sandbags used as hoods by troops were kept crumpled up in their pockets or pouches for quick use as necessary.
REPLY: Soldier A: "I can't answer that. That was the hood the man had on."
The Mirror has seen another picture of one of the soldiers with another arrested Iraqi - the sandbag appears identical.
CLAIM: The troops' uniforms and equipment are too neat and not dirty.
The Mirror has been shown another picture of an arrest in which the soldiers' uniforms appear exactly the same.
CLAIM: There are no visible bruises or marks on the Iraqi.
REPLY: Soldier A: "I can't explain that."
CLAIM: Boots were not laced in the correct fashion.
REALITY: Soldier A: "I never even noticed that. I think people lace the boots the way they are most comfortable with."
The Mirror has seen archived pictures of Basra soldiers with laces done up in many different ways.