Can you morally reconcile this for me?

[Silentwarrior17]

Look...this fight will go on forever. Tampon's and AD Marines will fight until the world ends. You can't take what some of these AD bubba's say so seriously. You know what you have done in your career regardless if you spent most of that in the USMCR or AD side. Let no one take away from you what you have accomplished, but come on fellas let's not play the whose d*cks bigger contest all the time. Reservist or not who cares. I'd love to see someone come to my face and say something like that to me, it prob wouldn't end well for them. If someone wants to play that game, let them.

On the deployment part. You have to do whats best for you. YOU had no control over where the Corps puts you, that is just the nature of the beast. But I will tell you to be careful what you wish for. Combat is a beast that is unlike any other. While it is something you want more than anything now, once those rounds start flying you can never take back what happens. Do what's best for you and your family. Morality goes out the window when some sh*thead is shooting at you. The only thing that matters at that point is you living and him peacefully resting where you dropped him.

[Gunz]

That's offensive on so many levels man. I'll look past the fact that you are calling me a "kid" despite being a married 24 year old meritorious Sergeant in the USMCR who has racked up a couple of degrees and accounts of hundreds of millions of dollars on a daily basis when I'm not doing my thing with the Corps. It's not so much that I'm butt hurt personally -- but there are Reserve Marines that won't ever see there families again because they were KIA in Iraq or Afghanistan. It's their legacy that I feel gets spit on when some one says something like what you said. When I hear **** like you said, I really can't help but wish you would go tell some of those dead Marines' buddies that they were just accountants, teachers, policemen, and firemen and not "grunts" or Marines.

As to the time I've given the Corps:
Sure, I've not been there every day for over 6 years. I've deployed once and I'll be volunteering to deploy again despite my required time being up. In the interim, I've made some pretty good progress in the Corps and in the civilian world. If you've ever been in a worth a **** Reserve unit -- and been a leader in it at that, you'd realize how ignorant it is to think that you just go show up Saturday and leave Sunday and that your AT is just 2 weeks long. To paint a picture on this, one SNCO was given the ultimatum from his wife to "get out" or "get divorced" because he spent 40+ hours a week at his regular job then was constantly dealing with things -- while at home, for the unit and didn't have time for his family.

To be honest, I did have one opportunity to go to Iraq but it was going to mean I came right home from the first deployment and immediately left for the next. I passed, as it was early in my enlistment and I was sure that something would come along in a year or two. Well, that sure didn't happen. I'm sure this means that I wasn't 110% dedicated to it. Sure, I'll give that. I have a life outside the Corps, but I thought the Commandant was serious when he said "Every Marine into the fight!" Plus, even if you can get your command to allow you to transfer, there's a decent chance you get side lined as a combat replacement or making the Captain's coffee. It really is best to try and go with your own unit.

Now, this isn't a debate on whether I should be allowed to be called a grunt or not because I'm just a lowly Reservist. This is a moral question. Morals don't exist in a vacuum, and it's flat out ignorant to say that if I'd been to combat it wouldn't matter. Quite frankly the US Government IS NOT good at determining what's best for us. We trained up the mujiahideen in Afghanistan, remember?

Thanks to all for the replies.

Well said!

[montana]

I thought the North DID win? So, what were we there for? Sorry, that's another thread...no need to answer.

yuppers the north did,...but i believe it was cuz we pulled out...i remember kickin their azz when ever they had ball enough to fight on many occasions

[advanced]

That's offensive on so many levels man. I'll look past the fact that you are calling me a "kid" despite being a married 24 year old meritorious Sergeant in the USMCR who has racked up a couple of degrees and accounts of hundreds of millions of dollars on a daily basis when I'm not doing my thing with the Corps. It's not so much that I'm butt hurt personally -- but there are Reserve Marines that won't ever see there families again because they were KIA in Iraq or Afghanistan. It's their legacy that I feel gets spit on when some one says something like what you said. When I hear **** like you said, I really can't help but wish you would go tell some of those dead Marines' buddies that they were just accountants, teachers, policemen, and firemen and not "grunts" or Marines.

As to the time I've given the Corps:
Sure, I've not been there every day for over 6 years. I've deployed once and I'll be volunteering to deploy again despite my required time being up. In the interim, I've made some pretty good progress in the Corps and in the civilian world. If you've ever been in a worth a **** Reserve unit -- and been a leader in it at that, you'd realize how ignorant it is to think that you just go show up Saturday and leave Sunday and that your AT is just 2 weeks long. To paint a picture on this, one SNCO was given the ultimatum from his wife to "get out" or "get divorced" because he spent 40+ hours a week at his regular job then was constantly dealing with things -- while at home, for the unit and didn't have time for his family.

To be honest, I did have one opportunity to go to Iraq but it was going to mean I came right home from the first deployment and immediately left for the next. I passed, as it was early in my enlistment and I was sure that something would come along in a year or two. Well, that sure didn't happen. I'm sure this means that I wasn't 110% dedicated to it. Sure, I'll give that. I have a life outside the Corps, but I thought the Commandant was serious when he said "Every Marine into the fight!" Plus, even if you can get your command to allow you to transfer, there's a decent chance you get side lined as a combat replacement or making the Captain's coffee. It really is best to try and go with your own unit.

Now, this isn't a debate on whether I should be allowed to be called a grunt or not because I'm just a lowly Reservist. This is a moral question. Morals don't exist in a vacuum, and it's flat out ignorant to say that if I'd been to combat it wouldn't matter. Quite frankly the US Government IS NOT good at determining what's best for us. We trained up the mujiahideen in Afghanistan, remember?

Thanks to all for the replies.

No kid, you're not an infantryman - you're an accountant. I didn't realize that you were not a regular grunt initially. Like has been said, if you wanted to be a Marine Grunt you should have gone regular. Too late now, it sounds like you're off to a lifetime of pencil pushing.

Kid - Don't get your panties in a wad. As you can see above I have not knocked the Marine Reserve. They are a fine addition to the Marine Corps and have been utilized greatly in these past years. You must remember that I have had no experience with the reserves because to my knowledge they were not called up during my time, Vietnam. I have personally never even seen a Marine reservist, once again to my knowledge. My only reference to a Marine grunt is with the regular MC infantry. From my experience if someone really wants to go to war you become a regular grunt, not a reservist. Of course when a reservist goes into combat he is now a regular so the point is moot.

I also said that you're not an infantryman - you're an accountant. Your response was that you are a "married 24 year old meritorious Sergeant in the USMCR who has racked up a couple of degrees and accounts of hundreds of millions of dollars on a daily basis when I'm not doing my thing with the Corps." Your entire focus here in on your accounting ability, not your MC ability for which you have wasted 6 years doing your thing with the Corps. Question: do you really bring in accounts of "hundreds of millions of dollars on a daily basis," just curious.

Being married and 24 does not make you a man, the reason for my use of Kid when referring to you. Sorry you got "butt hurt." You say that you're a damn good accountant, I believe you. Being a "Regular Grunt" will take away everything that you have built. Here's the choice; 1. Occasionally go watch a war movie, eat some popcorn, raise the kids and have a wonderful life. 2. Watch even more horrible war movies in you head every night, forever.

You are almost out, you've done your duty to your country, your family, your Corps and to yourself.

[Wyoming]

yuppers the north did,...but i believe it was cuz we pulled out...i remember kickin their azz when ever they had ball enough to fight on many occasions

We were winning when I left!!

[USNAviator]

I don't have a dog in this fight but perhaps the OP should take some time to read some of the threads in the PTSD forum

I've only seen what war can do to human beings from the air. I've never fired a shot in anger and to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever fired at me. But I've seen the results of combat in Veterans Hospitals. You want up close and personal, go visit a Veterans Hospital, talk to men who have been patients for years on end. They are never going to get better at least not in the psychological sense.

Or visit a Veterans homeless shelter and see how combat and drugs/alcohol can bring a man to his knees

[Marine84]

We were winning when I left!!

You guys fired the last winning shots on your way out!

[civgrunt05]

I used the wrong preposition. I meant "account for," not "account of." That's more of a brokers thing to bring in money that way, and not what I do at all.

Advanced:
I can understand your perspective because from what I've heard in your time you could join the reserve to avoid the draft and eventually Vietnam, but in today's world it's just not the case, though I believe you have acknowledged that. To further drive the point though, I believe at one time in the Iraq war there were more guardsmen and Reservists in country than there were regular AD troops.

This thread has devolved into something I didn't want it to, but since we are there I think I'll reiterate that I've never met an infantryman (or a "kid" accountant/weekend infantryman as Advanced would insist) who has not seen combat that said, "no, I don't want to go man. That would suck." There are guys that have seen terrible things out there and suffer for a lifetime, but I think the Corps has perhaps done a better job in recent years in preparing Marines for the horrors of combat. Re-enlistment rates are solid despite being at war for nearly 10 years.

I know plenty of Marines toting CARs on their chest, and all have them have told me they earned it through experiences they would never give up. Some of those saw some serious combat and saw some buddies chopped up. Outside of this "rite of passage" silliness, it lends more to me as a trainer as I advance further in the Corps (if I choose to stay in) if I have some combat experience from which to draw on instruction.

[Covey_Rider]

Quite frankly the US Government IS NOT good at determining what's best for us. We trained up the mujiahideen in Afghanistan, remember?

Here is an excellent example of the US training foreign troops. Currently yes, we are fighting against some of the very men that we trained. However consider the time frame in which we trained these men. The cold war had just ended and the Russians were attempting to take over Afghanistan. At that point in time, it was crucial that the Russians did not take control over that area in concerns to tactical positioning for a future strike on the US. It was better for us to train local fighters then to send our own troops in.

Now let's take a look at the Mujahideen that we are fighting today. It is an organization that after to USSR was defeated, had no purpose or mission and was more or less disbanded. Fighting was all these men knew and it gave them purpose and meaning to their lives. Once the USSR left Afghanistan, the ISI (Pakistani Intelligence) put the Taliban into power in order to establish a central government. They were recognized as the official government of Afghanistan from the mid 90's right up until 9/11. Now, when the Taliban took control, they brought in all of the Mujahideen fighters to create their "army." These men were looking for a new cause and they found one. Once 9/11 happened and we went into Afghanistan, we effectively went to war against the Taliban and all of the prior Mujahideen fighters. Some of the prior Mujahideen decided to remain with the Taliban, while others joined with coalition forces to assist in rooting out the Taliban from power. The majority of the Afghan National Army and Afghan Police are former Mujahideen fighters, especially the senior leadership. The Taliban was widely supported until they began to gain wealth through the drug trade. That trade led to the relationship that they had with Al Qaeda. Once the war started the Taliban/Al Qaeda coined the term "Jihad" for their own personal benefit. Most Muslims around the world despise the fact that Jihad is being used as a term of war against all infidels/non-believers. Again, this is all propaganda utilized by the Taliban/Al Qaeda to give the fighters purpose and motivation to fight against us. You wouldn't believe the extent that many of these men will go in the name of their religion. It's really something you have to see first hand, and if you ever do see it, I hope your experience isn't nearly as horrific as mine.

Now, in regards to fellow Marines that wish to continue to go back overseas into war zones. This is a mindset that is based off of some of the most bonding experiences that you will ever experience. There is a primal mindset that is difficult to explain that for many, quite addicting. If what you know is combat, then it is very difficult to adjust back to a normal life. It is more mentally straining for combat veterans to deal with civilian life, then it is for them to deal with war. At least for a little while. Frankly this is actually quite sad. I could go on and on about why many want to go back. However I'll be honest, it is not to go over and liberate anyone and it's not just because their some war junkies. The mentality goes much deeper and it is what they know and are comfortable with. I myself am like this.

Now after that nice little essay, back to this portion about morals. Here's why I say your perspective on morals changes once you hit actual combat. You gain the understanding that you make your decisions right then and there and you have no way of seeing the future. You will deal with that when the time comes. Here is a small scenario that I have personally dealt with. We begin an operation, somebody pops out of a doorway from 25m away and shoots at us with an AK-47. We kill this guy and when we walk up for the dead check, we discover that this "guy" was probably no more than a 14 year old kid that had been locked in that room, with no way out but to shoot at us. Now, a normal person would feel pity for this kid based off of their morals telling them that it is wrong to kill a kid. However a decision was made and the kid was killed, too bad for him. After this incident many locals were upset that we had done this, however we fought that battle when the time came.

In regards to you training foreigners and you thinking that it is morally wrong, consider this. Many people above you are making this decision to train them, based off of MUCH more information then you are privy to. That is why the Marine Corps instills instant obedience to orders. When the orders come down the pipeline, it is because the person that is giving them knows more than you do and has made a decision. You cannot let morals impede that decision, otherwise you may effect something else that you didn't even know about.

[rktect3j]

I don't remember signing up for a specific combat related engagment. I believe, and correct me if I have this wrong, that the Marines send you where they need you for a specific job that requires handling. Sometimes you fill sand bags after tsunamis hit, bring food and water and provide shelter, and other times you sit in garrison field daying the barracks. When the time comes, the Corps will send you to combat.

Having said that, I understand how you feel. I had to fight tooth and nail stateside to get to Saudi Arabia for the Persian Gulf War.

And the 2nd time I was there, we were tasked with training some of Saudi Arabias troops. What a sorry week that was. Picture three stooges in uniform. Pathetic.

[AAV Crewchief]

I've given a lot of thought lately to something. Let's say hypothetically you had an opportunity to go on a deployment where for some portion of the time you might be training the military forces of countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, etc.

Here are the pro's I can find for doing this:
All of these countries, to one arguable extent or another, have assisted us in prosecuting our war against Al-Qaeda. By training their military you are assisting them in defending their country from terrorism and helping to cultivate a relationship that fosters both direct and indirect (intel sharing, etc) support for us in fighting terrorism.

Cons:
All of these countries are lead by either dynastic monarchs or dictators that have held the title of "president" for some 30+ years. Their people are marching in the streets against these rulers and in support of democracy, and it's not uncommon for the protestors to be brutalized, terrorized, or shot for doing so. I feel that training some of these militaries in say marksmanship could directly enable them to better shoot and kill their civilians. These civilians are marching for the same ideals that our men have died in Iraq and Afghanistan for -- democracy and freedom. Their leaders just happen to be kings/dictators who have been more friendly and helpful to the United States.

Now, outside of the "as Marines we follow orders" argument, how does one morally reconcile this delima? A Marine buddy of mine likened training these militaries to training the British during our revolution. I have no problem with Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact, I recently heard the whisper of "Afghanistan" in my unit (that has since gone away) and I said I would extend to go despite my time being up, so I think that speaks to the idea that I'm not some hippy that joined and just wants to stay at home.

Thoughts? Discuss please.

Well Devil Dog, after getting your orders to do what you were trained to do, there is nothing else that matters except the man to the right and the man to the left of you and trying to get each other home safely.

[AAV Crewchief]

No kid, you're not an infantryman - you're an accountant. I didn't realize that you were not a regular grunt initially. Like has been said, if you wanted to be a Marine Grunt you should have gone regular. Too late now, it sounds like you're off to a lifetime of pencil pushing.

Throttle back a bit. This isn't about being an infantryman and from my reading comprehension skills that isn't what the OP is intending this to be and if you think being in the infantry is where the fight is involving the GWOT, you're quite mistaken.

As for the regular versus reserve Hoohah, you're eyes are so brown they are FOS my man. Guess what unit was awarded the Gallant Unit Citation when no other active duty had done so prior to 2007 (and still possibly now) for action in the GWOT? A reserve Spec Ops unit (919th SOW/919th Ops Group/711 SOS) that I am a member of and have been so since May of 1999. I get tired of hearing how well the AD side of the house does things when we deploy and outdo statistically every active duty unit that we replace and set standards that in our post deployment era have not been matched by anyone else, AD or reserves.

Again, get off the guy's jock. At least he has served his country in a time when most kids think that being in some bad bush is between the legs of a skank ho they met at the frat party last week. Hell, he's also volunteering to do more. What else can we ask the guy to do?