Can you morally reconcile this for me?

[civgrunt05]

I've given a lot of thought lately to something. Let's say hypothetically you had an opportunity to go on a deployment where for some portion of the time you might be training the military forces of countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, etc.

Here are the pro's I can find for doing this:
All of these countries, to one arguable extent or another, have assisted us in prosecuting our war against Al-Qaeda. By training their military you are assisting them in defending their country from terrorism and helping to cultivate a relationship that fosters both direct and indirect (intel sharing, etc) support for us in fighting terrorism.

Cons:
All of these countries are lead by either dynastic monarchs or dictators that have held the title of "president" for some 30+ years. Their people are marching in the streets against these rulers and in support of democracy, and it's not uncommon for the protestors to be brutalized, terrorized, or shot for doing so. I feel that training some of these militaries in say marksmanship could directly enable them to better shoot and kill their civilians. These civilians are marching for the same ideals that our men have died in Iraq and Afghanistan for -- democracy and freedom. Their leaders just happen to be kings/dictators who have been more friendly and helpful to the United States.

Now, outside of the "as Marines we follow orders" argument, how does one morally reconcile this delima? A Marine buddy of mine likened training these militaries to training the British during our revolution. I have no problem with Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact, I recently heard the whisper of "Afghanistan" in my unit (that has since gone away) and I said I would extend to go despite my time being up, so I think that speaks to the idea that I'm not some hippy that joined and just wants to stay at home.

Thoughts? Discuss please.

[advanced]

I wouldn't worry about your moral concerns too much my young Marine; The US typically backs and trains the side that has no gonads for fighting. My experience was in the Nam, though there were exceptions, the ARVN's that we trained were either no-shows or preferred to be in the rear with the gear.

Though we may have trained some VC that misrepresented themselves we had an easy solution if they tried to use their skills against us - we killed them, we killed a lot of them.

Your wanting to go to a combat unit, be careful what you wish for.

[civgrunt05]

I wouldn't worry about your moral concerns too much my young Marine; The US typically backs and trains the side that has no gonads for fighting. My experience was in the Nam, though there were exceptions, the ARVN's that we trained were either no-shows or preferred to be in the rear with the gear.

Though we may have trained some VC that misrepresented themselves we had an easy solution if they tried to use their skills against us - we killed them, we killed a lot of them.

Your wanting to go to a combat unit, be careful what you wish for.

While I can appreciate your word of caution and the experience from which it comes, I must say that I've been in for over 6 years now, in an infantry unit that is actually pretty damn good to go for the 4th MarDiv, and I feel like the Corps has honestly wasted my time. I joined to go to Iraq. I found out I was being sent elsewhere and tried to transfer to an Iraq bound unit, but was told no. I heard we were going to Afghanistan, and they changed locations on us. I want to go to combat. I'm an infantryman, and that's what all my buddies want to,

Rant off, and back to the moral question.

Thanks guys!

[montana]

advanced....you hit it.....sent us on a few with the arvens.....could count on them dee dee mowin after the first shot was fired...some even droping their rifles...was never any doubt in my minde if we werent there the north would win

[Vandrel]

Everything is all fun and games until someone gets shot

[Covey_Rider]

I think that had you been into combat this question wouldn't even exist. Morals are merely a personal matter of perspective. Perspectives are gained through experience etc etc. Personally I couldn't give two ****s about these countries that are rioting against their dictators. Let them do it. I think the US needs to stay the hell away from it. If the US is going to participate is some faction, then they will do so in whatever manner will benefit America. It may seem crude however it is truth.

Don't take this the wrong way at all, however after reading your posting in regards to the Corps wasting your time I merely have an opinion on this. You say that they're wasting your time however what time did you really give to the Corps by going into the reserves? If combat is/what you are hungry for then why not active duty? I find it hard to believe that in a 6 year period, you could not either put in a package for active duty or find your way onto a combat tour. I think the problem is that it may not have fit into your plan and therefor was not pursued.

[advanced]

While I can appreciate your word of caution and the experience from which it comes, I must say that I've been in for over 6 years now, in an infantry unit that is actually pretty damn good to go for the 4th MarDiv, and I feel like the Corps has honestly wasted my time. I joined to go to Iraq. I found out I was being sent elsewhere and tried to transfer to an Iraq bound unit, but was told no. I heard we were going to Afghanistan, and they changed locations on us. I want to go to combat. I'm an infantryman, and that's what all my buddies want to,

Rant off, and back to the moral question.

Thanks guys!

No kid, you're not an infantryman - you're an accountant. I didn't realize that you were not a regular grunt initially. Like has been said, if you wanted to be a Marine Grunt you should have gone regular. Too late now, it sounds like you're off to a lifetime of pencil pushing.

[HST]

While I can appreciate your word of caution and the experience from which it comes, I must say that I've been in for over 6 years now, in an infantry unit that is actually pretty damn good to go for the 4th MarDiv, and I feel like the Corps has honestly wasted my time. I joined to go to Iraq. I found out I was being sent elsewhere and tried to transfer to an Iraq bound unit, but was told no. I heard we were going to Afghanistan, and they changed locations on us. I want to go to combat. I'm an infantryman, and that's what all my buddies want to,

Rant off, and back to the moral question.

Thanks guys!

I know that things have changed a lot but I hope the right to request mast hasn't. If it hasn't, do so. If all else fails, write a nice letter to your congressman but when you do, have your bags packed and be ready to hump. I don't think things have changed that much.

[Tennessee Top]

advanced....you hit it.....sent us on a few with the arvens.....could count on them dee dee mowin after the first shot was fired...some even droping their rifles...was never any doubt in my minde if we werent there the north would win

I thought the North DID win? So, what were we there for? Sorry, that's another thread...no need to answer.

[ForMyBros]

I'm not a Marine yet, sir. But I would agree with some of these guys, if you would like some combat, request for active duty. That is about the only thing I could think of on why you aren't getting to fight. From what I have heard, and I grew up around the Corps is, if you wanna be a fighter, the Marine Corps is where you need to be. If you wanted a job then you could have just went to the Army. No offense or disrespect in any way, sir. I hope you do not take it in a disrespectful manner.

[Zulu 36]

Nobody here can really morally reconcile this conundrum for you. You have to do it for yourself.

We can tell you what WE might do, but we are not you.

Yeah, this is kind of like the philosophical question, "What is the sound of one hand clapping." If you and I were face-to-face, we could have a Socratic dialogue that might guide you to an answer, but here we are.

IF I were your age, I might just go ahead and take the job. Dangerous? Probably. But the experience you could gain... worth it or not?

[SGTPAT1371]

THATS PART OF BEENING A MARINE TRAINING OTHER COUNTRIES. MOST MARINES WHO HAVE BEEN DOWN RANGE HAS.

[Mongoose]

I wouldn't worry about your moral concerns too much my young Marine; The US typically backs and trains the side that has no gonads for fighting. My experience was in the Nam, though there were exceptions, the ARVN's that we trained were either no-shows or preferred to be in the rear with the gear.

Though we may have trained some VC that misrepresented themselves we had an easy solution if they tried to use their skills against us - we killed them, we killed a lot of them.

Your wanting to go to a combat unit, be careful what you wish for.

The ARVNS were a piece of coward sh*t. That got a lot of good Marines killed trying to fix thier fvck ups.

[Covey_Rider]

I'm not a Marine yet, sir. But I would agree with some of these guys, if you would like some combat, request for active duty. That is about the only thing I could think of on why you aren't getting to fight. From what I have heard, and I grew up around the Corps is, if you wanna be a fighter, the Marine Corps is where you need to be. If you wanted a job then you could have just went to the Army. No offense or disrespect in any way, sir. I hope you do not take it in a disrespectful manner.

You need to browse the rules again. Open squad bay is not for poolees/wannabes. You have not been in the Marine Corps nor have you been to combat at all and therefor do not rate to make the comment that you made. Comments off of hearsay and rumor are nothing but that. I have served with many reservists in combat. Back to your box pup.

[civgrunt05]

No kid, you're not an infantryman - you're an accountant. I didn't realize that you were not a regular grunt initially. Like has been said, if you wanted to be a Marine Grunt you should have gone regular. Too late now, it sounds like you're off to a lifetime of pencil pushing.

That's offensive on so many levels man. I'll look past the fact that you are calling me a "kid" despite being a married 24 year old meritorious Sergeant in the USMCR who has racked up a couple of degrees and accounts of hundreds of millions of dollars on a daily basis when I'm not doing my thing with the Corps. It's not so much that I'm butt hurt personally -- but there are Reserve Marines that won't ever see there families again because they were KIA in Iraq or Afghanistan. It's their legacy that I feel gets spit on when some one says something like what you said. When I hear **** like you said, I really can't help but wish you would go tell some of those dead Marines' buddies that they were just accountants, teachers, policemen, and firemen and not "grunts" or Marines.

As to the time I've given the Corps:
Sure, I've not been there every day for over 6 years. I've deployed once and I'll be volunteering to deploy again despite my required time being up. In the interim, I've made some pretty good progress in the Corps and in the civilian world. If you've ever been in a worth a **** Reserve unit -- and been a leader in it at that, you'd realize how ignorant it is to think that you just go show up Saturday and leave Sunday and that your AT is just 2 weeks long. To paint a picture on this, one SNCO was given the ultimatum from his wife to "get out" or "get divorced" because he spent 40+ hours a week at his regular job then was constantly dealing with things -- while at home, for the unit and didn't have time for his family.

To be honest, I did have one opportunity to go to Iraq but it was going to mean I came right home from the first deployment and immediately left for the next. I passed, as it was early in my enlistment and I was sure that something would come along in a year or two. Well, that sure didn't happen. I'm sure this means that I wasn't 110% dedicated to it. Sure, I'll give that. I have a life outside the Corps, but I thought the Commandant was serious when he said "Every Marine into the fight!" Plus, even if you can get your command to allow you to transfer, there's a decent chance you get side lined as a combat replacement or making the Captain's coffee. It really is best to try and go with your own unit.

Now, this isn't a debate on whether I should be allowed to be called a grunt or not because I'm just a lowly Reservist. This is a moral question. Morals don't exist in a vacuum, and it's flat out ignorant to say that if I'd been to combat it wouldn't matter. Quite frankly the US Government IS NOT good at determining what's best for us. We trained up the mujiahideen in Afghanistan, remember?

Thanks to all for the replies.