Pre-M16 Rifle Qual, how things have changed

[4thecorps]

This may be interesting to you. Went to ITR at Geiger in July '66. Our weapons issue was M-1, but somehow I wound up with a BAR. Maybe they thought it was good for me due to original MOS 0331. That sucker was heavy & unwieldy, but it made me special. When we had chance for slop shoot, guys even bought me beers to ask about it.

[R Landry]

I wonder how the BAR compared to the M-60, from service and maintainence standpoints. Wonder if any of our members has good familiarity with both - not just ITR use. Lots of M-60's poking out of Hueys.

Before my reserve unit converted to MPs, our rifle company had several 'automatic' M-16s with tripods. It was cool to empty a 20-shot mag in a second.

[dhuntington]

Alright you old farts! The truth is, everybody thinks their equipment is THE best. I love the M-16. I used the M-16A1. My son is going to PI in January for Security Forces. He bought an AR-15 and is already shooting 6" groups at 200 yards. He's a little sporadic at 300 so far, but getting better. We don't have a 500 yard range though. The M-16 is definitely NOT a "spray and pray" weapon.

[249gunner]

Alright you old farts! The truth is, everybody thinks their equipment is THE best. I love the M-16. I used the M-16A1. My son is going to PI in January for Security Forces. He bought an AR-15 and is already shooting 6" groups at 200 yards. He's a little sporadic at 300 so far, but getting better. We don't have a 500 yard range though. The M-16 is definitely NOT a "spray and pray" weapon.

6" from 200yds is impressive, that is if he really is shooting from all 3 of the 200yd stances. Tell him to really make the money on the 200 sitting and practice the kneeling and standing portions.
I find the 500yd line the easiest, for practice at home I shoot a 12 by 18inch B-MOD from 300 yds (same concept, scaled down target, except wind doesnt come into play all the way)

Any platform that the Marine rifle team has trust in, I trust, regardless of the favoritism. I just hate how we dont have a Marine from the '30s era to bring up what a pain in the ass a rapid fire with a bolt action was, that would shut us semi auto guys up I think. lol

[ErikHeiker]

Loved the M-14, shot Expert with it.
Never liked the M-16, could only qualify (just) as Sharpshooter with it.
Seems to me the 16 was more of a "spray and pray" weapon

Same here. Expert with the M-14, but never better than Sharpshooter with the M-16.

[249gunner]

"American Marine sharpshooter aims a 1903 Springfield rifle at opponents during the American intervention in the Mexican Revolution, Vera Cruz, Mexico, 1914. Note shell casings to his right."


One badass Spanish American war statue

[249gunner]

sorry couldnt size it down
I taught it was a cool example of the American rifleman.

[Zulu 36]

I wonder how the BAR compared to the M-60, from service and maintainence standpoints. Wonder if any of our members has good familiarity with both - not just ITR use. Lots of M-60's poking out of Hueys.

Before my reserve unit converted to MPs, our rifle company had several 'automatic' M-16s with tripods. It was cool to empty a 20-shot mag in a second.

I spent my whole military career with fully-automatic M-16s and variants (except boot camp). They could burn up a lot of ammo fast. Great when in real tight (room clearing), but not so great at a distance. That's one reason the Marine Corps forced the Army to go along with the 3-round burst feature on the M-16A2.

I have shot both the M-60 (of course) and the BAR. The BAR was fun to shoot, but I never had to muscle it around or to maintain it. I never did really like the M-60. Too many stoppages to make me happy. I had the chance to fire the British GPMG, essentially the M-240G used now by US forces. I really liked that gun. I fired over 1,000 rounds and no stoppages. I can't remember ever firing that much ammo with an M-60 and not having at least a few stoppages of some sort.

I once worked with a guy who had been with Fox/2/7 at Fox Hill during the Chosin campaign (his presence is verified, no sea story). He said the BARs they had, once night fell, froze solid. Worked fine in daytime, but they didn't need their firepower as badly in the daytime. He said the .30 cal Browning machine guns are what saved their asses at night.

[Wyoming]

I was on target to get expert. Day before qualification, someone knocked my rifle off the bench and my front sight got jarred off center. **** - my windage was shot. I called the PMI over and we spent about an hour doing some prone and sitting rapid fire to move my groups back on center. Never could get them quite right. Next day I shot a 217 -- three shy of expert. Rats!!!!

Same thing here, but this was qual day. Sights got knocked off center. Thankfully the PMI helped me out. Missed Expert by a few.

[249gunner]

So can anyone tell me when the B-Mod target came into service. I heard that the M1 Garand/Springfield generation shot at a 20in bullseye from the 600yd line.

[leprechaun9544]

Also qualified Expert with the M-14. Can anyone refresh my memory as to what was a "perfect" score at Camp Matthews back in 1962 ?

[R Landry]

Not sure about Camp Matthews, but in 1961, this was the scoring for the M-1 in 1961. Supposed to be the same for the M-14 & M-16 until the late '70s when the scoring was changed.

Marksman - 190-209
Sharpshooter - 210-219
Expert - 220-250

So I assume that 'perfect' is 250.

[249gunner]

anyone remember the target dimensions?