Our options in Iraq

[SuNmAN]

I thought we won the war but are currently loosing the peace. Or, are the soonies kicking the camel dung out of the shee-its? Looks like un-Civil war to me.

Staff Sergeant - its safe to say we won the first war with ease but are quickly losing the second

Our forces quickly rolled over Saddam Hussein's conventional army with minimal losses. We won the war against Saddam Hussein.

However, our men are spread too thin and were ill prepared to fight a 4th generation, insurgency type war.


All the enemy has to do is:

1. Kill Americans
2. Kill civilians
3. Create fear, chaos and turmoil

which would lead to:

1. Bad Press for the United States Government
2. Loss of confidence in the United States and the newly elected Iraqi government
3. Destabilization of the new Iraqi government

which then would lead to:

1. Massive Discontent within the American population
2. Calls for withdrawal of US troops

which then puts the United States in a predicament, a Catch-22 situation if you will:

A. If we withdraw, then it is possible and even likely that the democratic government will collapse. Al Qaeda and extremist Muslims will sweep in and seize power, leading to a fundamentalist, Islamic terrorist state similar to that of Afghanistan but on a much larger scale.

B. If we stay the course - America will continue to bleed and bleed. The Iraqi people will continue to bleed and bleed. At some point then the American people and Congress will have enough of this war and situation "A" will likely happen

C. Or we can augment - Follow General Eric Shinseki's proposal back in early 2003 before the invasion and deploy at least 300,000 troops in Iraq, preferably 500,000. We will treat the Iraqi people with dignity and compassion, making EVERY EFFORT to ensure the safety of the Iraqi people and minimalizing the violence in Iraq.

The American people will be outraged, because a draft may have to be instituted for us to put 500,000 men on the ground. There will be calls to impeach President Bush. The Republican party can forget about re-election for the next decade, and American casualties will mount with intense fighting as we protect Iraqi civilians and infrastructure against Muslim fundamentalist fighters.

This may or may not work. If we choose this course of action, there could be one of two results:

1. Situation gets worse: Al Qaeda steps up their attacks as a result of US augmentation and seems to have no shortage of new recruits. All we did as a result of putting 500,000 men on the ground is expand the scope of the war and returning to the status quo.

2. The Iraqi Government catches a breath: 500,000 men on the ground may give the Iraqi government the breathing room it needs to more quickly field a strong army capable to gradually replacing US troops in the front lines. There is always the problem of Al Qaeda infiltrating the ranks of the army and sabotage as a result, therefore, men selected to become officers of the Iraqi Army must face even more stringent examinations and qualifications than officers in the US military.

Also the presence of 500,000 could allow the Iraqi government, US contractors as well as IGOs and NGOs to rebuild the Iraqi economy and infrastructure in relative safety.



As you see...there are lots of decisions that need to be made. A lot of the stuff I've said here is really theoretical. Option "C" may not even be an option. With the recent event of the democratic party retaking the US Congress, the chances of Congress authorizing such a move, that may even require a draft possibly is slim to none.


All I can say is that in hindsight - Bush and Rumsfeld and his advisors should've thought MUCH MUCH more carefully before making the decision to go into Iraq. And for knucklehead Rumsfeld - DON'T EVER IGNORE THE ADVICE OF YOUR MILITARY COMMANDERS, BECAUSE THEY KNOW BETTER THAN YOU WHEN IT COMES TO STRATEGY AND OPERATIONS.

[SkilletsUSMC]

I am a vet of this war. I have seen Marines die. I will not sit here and listen to some one who never stepped foot in country tell me that we are loosing this war. Im ****ing sick of it. Youre in here everyday crying uncle for a war that you know nothing about except for what you read on the internet. what a victory be for you anyway? Total peace? In our own country there is violence that, with the right spin, could be considered "secratarian violence". There is cop killing. So I suppose we should pull out of detriot and south central LA? We have plenty of violence with good americans dying there too.

There are certain groups of people in this country who are hell bent on making sure the US war effort looks as bad and happless as possible. The US forces are now made to follow rediculous ROEs just so the Anti war media wont rip them apart.

The war in Iraq would be over in 6 months if we could just take the gloves off. The REAL is fought everyday here at home. And that is the ONLY war we are losing.

[drumcorpssnare]

SkilletsUSMC- Best post I've seen since joining Leatherneck.com Period!

drumcorpssnare

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Skillets, right on target!!! I owe you a beer.

[SuNmAN]

I am a vet of this war. I have seen Marines die. I will not sit here and listen to some one who never stepped foot in country tell me that we are loosing this war. Im ****ing sick of it. Youre in here everyday crying uncle for a war that you know nothing about except for what you read on the internet. what a victory be for you anyway? Total peace? In our own country there is violence that, with the right spin, could be considered "secratarian violence". There is cop killing. So I suppose we should pull out of detriot and south central LA? We have plenty of violence with good americans dying there too.

There are certain groups of people in this country who are hell bent on making sure the US war effort looks as bad and happless as possible. The US forces are now made to follow rediculous ROEs just so the Anti war media wont rip them apart.

The war in Iraq would be over in 6 months if we could just take the gloves off. The REAL is fought everyday here at home. And that is the ONLY war we are losing.

I respect you for being a veteran of this war. But I have said nothing about the tactical scheme of things - which is all you have seen.

I'm sorry but when the newly appointed SecDef as well as top military leaders concede that we are most definitely NOT winning and everyday Americans continue to die, I'm pretty sure that counts as losing.

And losing the war at home is PART OF THE WAR. Because losing the war at home WILL lead to us losing the war in Iraq. Why? Obviously because we have a democratic form of government and decisions are swayed by public opinion.

Congress will not fund this war for much longer so long as we make no progress.

[SuNmAN]

I am a vet of this war. I have seen Marines die. I will not sit here and listen to some one who never stepped foot in country tell me that we are loosing this war. Im ****ing sick of it. Youre in here everyday crying uncle for a war that you know nothing about except for what you read on the internet. what a victory be for you anyway? Total peace? In our own country there is violence that, with the right spin, could be considered "secratarian violence". There is cop killing. So I suppose we should pull out of detriot and south central LA? We have plenty of violence with good americans dying there too.

There are certain groups of people in this country who are hell bent on making sure the US war effort looks as bad and happless as possible. The US forces are now made to follow rediculous ROEs just so the Anti war media wont rip them apart.

The war in Iraq would be over in 6 months if we could just take the gloves off. The REAL is fought everyday here at home. And that is the ONLY war we are losing.

Oh yeah, as for me never having set foot in the country

dude well thats out of my control. But it doesn't stop me from having some knowledge on the topic because I've done my research.

The Colonel that commands your regiment - do you think he sees any action? Does that mean he knows nothing about Iraq? What about the Sergeant Major that works for him?

What about Bill Belichick? Who never played a down in the NFL? Is he any less of a football coach because of it? Does his players tell him to shutup because he has no clue about anything?

I'm not saying I'm any of the above, but I am saying I don't have to have been there to know something.

I can put two and two together. So long as:

1. Americans and Iraqi civilians are dying everyday
2. Yet there is still continued, or even increased violence daily

and our #1 objective is to: Stabilize the country and reduce secretarian violence

then how can you say we're not LOSING THE WAR?

Its not being pessimistic, it is realizing that something is wrong and DEMANDING A CHANGE.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

SuN, while you may have a certain point about seeing 'the big picture', discounting, as you seem to be doing, Skillets 'grunts eye view' is doing exactly what you accuse the current administration of doing.

And, I haven't set foot 'in country' either, but I do my research and Intel as well. Except, I try to avoid places like the NYT and various anti-war/anti-american sites to do it, or at least, base my entire opinion on just that.

Lastly...

"And losing the war at home is PART OF THE WAR. Because losing the war at home WILL lead to us losing the war in Iraq. Why? Obviously because we have a democratic form of government and decisions are swayed by public opinion."

Exactly. And, as the left is so fond of saying, look to the 'root cause' of that public opinion...and that is, the doomsayers, naysayers, the 'America is always wrong' crowd, the NYT and other 'media' chanting about how badly 'we' are doing....

You are right. "We" are losing this war at home, and "we" have our own media, in cahoots with certain parties on the left, to thank for it.

Thank god these same people weren't around during Iwo Jima, or the Battle of the Bulge. I think censorship of the press during wartime is not only needed, but in the national interest.

[OLE SARG]

Sgt Leprechaun - I agree with you 110% on the censorship of our so-called press during wartime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I were still in I would have to consider shooting a lot of newspaper correspondents as "the enemy". They do more harm than our REAL ENEMY!!!!!!!

I do have to agree with one thing, we could win this war in NO TIME if we weren't hampered by one obstacle - CONGRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND the far-left!!

SEMPER FI,

[outlaw3179]

Sunman I can appreciate the fact that you think you know what is going on out there. You watch CNN, you read the New York Times and you think you know. You dont know ****. You sound just like everyone else who has an opinion but has no first hand knowledge of what is going on out there. Wait til you get out there , oh yeah your going . Probably in the next year if your in the same unit. So standby , read up all you want and make your little assumptions right now . Cuz i guaran****intee you that when your on patrol next year that stupid **** youve been reading wont mean a god damn thing. You think any "real" Marine gives a fu*k about your plan for retreat ? Get the fu*k out of here and go join green peace. Marine, by coming in here and spouting what your college proffesor has been teaching you all you do is enbolden the enemy , hurt your Marines and make yourself sound stupid. Like Ive said it before. We dont need your support , your help or your approval. Just let us do our jobs. Marine you better go sit down in a real quiet place somewhere and and figure out what your doing wearing that uniform, and how far you really believe that **** your saying ...because remember all your going to know is from a "tactical point of view" Dumbass.

[SuNmAN]

SuN, while you may have a certain point about seeing 'the big picture', discounting, as you seem to be doing, Skillets 'grunts eye view' is doing exactly what you accuse the current administration of doing.

And, I haven't set foot 'in country' either, but I do my research and Intel as well. Except, I try to avoid places like the NYT and various anti-war/anti-american sites to do it, or at least, base my entire opinion on just that.

Lastly...

"And losing the war at home is PART OF THE WAR. Because losing the war at home WILL lead to us losing the war in Iraq. Why? Obviously because we have a democratic form of government and decisions are swayed by public opinion."

Exactly. And, as the left is so fond of saying, look to the 'root cause' of that public opinion...and that is, the doomsayers, naysayers, the 'America is always wrong' crowd, the NYT and other 'media' chanting about how badly 'we' are doing....

You are right. "We" are losing this war at home, and "we" have our own media, in cahoots with certain parties on the left, to thank for it.

Thank god these same people weren't around during Iwo Jima, or the Battle of the Bulge. I think censorship of the press during wartime is not only needed, but in the national interest.

Whoa whoa...I have NEVER been to an anti-war/anti American site. The New York Times is probably one of the best newspapers in circulation in the United States. C'mon now, you expect me to get all my news from the Marine Corps Times? Yeah...thats not biased.

Sergeant - look at what you said: "Thank God these people weren't around during Iwo Jima or the Battle of the Bulge"

These two were CONVENTIONAL BATTLES, as opposed to Iraq, which is an unconventional WAR. In a conventional battle, the only thing thats required for us to achieve a certain objective is MILITARY FORCE. In Iwo Jima, our MILITARY FORCE took the heavily fortified Japanese island fortress with PLAIN OLD MILITARY FORCE. There was no need for diplomacy, no need to win hearts and minds, no need to win international support. Same with the Battle of the Bulge as we defeated CONVENTIONAL GERMAN FORCES.

What about Iraq? Lets take a look here:

The enemy is not wearing a uniform that identifies him as such. Our troops will often not be able to distinguish between a combatant and a non-combatant. They attack us not directly but with sneak attacks, sniping and IEDs. They kill civilians en masse to create discontent not only in Iraq but also in America and the international community.

Here, ALL THE MILITARY MIGHT IN THE WORLD just may not save us. The enemy does not need to defeat us militarily to win the war. Just as the NVA and Viet Cong never defeated us militarily. All they need to do is cause enough trouble for the international community to lose confidence in the United States (success), for the American people to lose faith in the current administration (again success), to make America look bad in the international arena (success) and to create chaos and turmoil in Iraq so the Iraqi people have no faith in their own, newly elected administation (success)

And that is why, ladies and gents, we are losing the war.

I'm sure Corporal Skillets was very brave in Iraq and killed many terrorists and won many battles. But that is irrevalent to winning the war in Iraq.

[SuNmAN]

Sgt Leprechaun - I agree with you 110% on the censorship of our so-called press during wartime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I were still in I would have to consider shooting a lot of newspaper correspondents as "the enemy". They do more harm than our REAL ENEMY!!!!!!!

I do have to agree with one thing, we could win this war in NO TIME if we weren't hampered by one obstacle - CONGRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND the far-left!!

SEMPER FI,

Please let me know how Congress is hampering our war efforts. They've only time and time again pass appropriations to FUND the war in Iraq, thats all.

And btw the Far Right is every bit as bad as the far left.

[SuNmAN]

Sunman I can appreciate the fact that you think you know what is going on out there. You watch CNN, you read the New York Times and you think you know. You dont know ****. You sound just like everyone else who has an opinion but has no first hand knowledge of what is going on out there. Wait til you get out there , oh yeah your going . Probably in the next year if your in the same unit. So standby , read up all you want and make your little assumptions right now . Cuz i guaran****intee you that when your on patrol next year that stupid **** youve been reading wont mean a god damn thing. You think any "real" Marine gives a fu*k about your plan for retreat ? Get the fu*k out of here and go join green peace. Marine, by coming in here and spouting what your college proffesor has been teaching you all you do is enbolden the enemy , hurt your Marines and make yourself sound stupid. Like Ive said it before. We dont need your support , your help or your approval. Just let us do our jobs. Marine you better go sit down in a real quiet place somewhere and and figure out what your doing wearing that uniform, and how far you really believe that **** your saying ...because remember all your going to know is from a "tactical point of view" Dumbass.

You're right on patrol all that stuff won't mean a damn thing. Because it is not up to you or I, it is up to the people in charge. The Field Commanders and the Bush Administration.

I'm sorry that I'm educated and that I've grown out of the boot camp "ooorahh kill kill kill them all" brainwashing bs.

[outlaw3179]

Yeah your all growns up. The rest of us dumbass grunts are just poor uneducated wretches who had no other choice in life. Thank God we have some punk ass college kid like yourself to show us the light. Why did you join the Marine Corps?

[SuNmAN]

Yeah your all growns up. The rest of us dumbass grunts are just poor uneducated wretches who had no other choice in life. Thank God we have some punk ass college kid like yourself to show us the light. Why did you join the Marine Corps?

Quit taking my words out of context. I never said that.

I joined because I love my country. Doesn't mean I have to buy into the Bush Administration and agree with everything they're doing.

When I get a lawful order, all I will say is "aye aye sir" and obey, but it doesn't mean I don't have the right to question the competence and intentions of our current administration like every other American.

[kato811]

congress hampering the war effort? there not the ones that have insisted on staying the course for the last 4 years. they have approved every request for money to fight this police action.