A few long winded questions

[Breake]

Before I start, I would like to say that I've looked around, if I have not looked around enough, or improperly it would be absolutely awesome if someone could point me in the right direction. This isn't something I've just come up with out of the blue, I've got pages of notes of questions I've asked and had answered, dedicated an entire browser to looking up information about the Marine Corps, how the process goes, benefits, and all that other good jazz. Also, I do believe that I've filled all the prerequisites before you start posting, if I've missed something, I sincerely apologize.



Also, if I get the terminology wrong and it bothers someone, please correct me so I don't mess it up again.

A little bit more about me,
I'm currently 17 years old, a sophomore in college, and when I had talked to an E-9 (Master Sergent?) that was at the recruiters office, I had told him how many college credits I had and showed him my transcript and he told me I would qualify to be E-2 upon enlistment. Scored a 90 on the practice ASVAB at the recruiting office.

But anyways,
I had went and talked with a recruiter today, this would be the fifth or sixth time I believe I have talked to him, and I was asking about guaranteed jobs. My dream MOS would be 1371, a Combat Engineer. My backup would be the 57 field, which expands to Chemical, Biological, Radiological, and Nuclear (CBRN) Defense. Backup after that would be Intelligence (02) and then communications (06).

I was told that there is no way to guarantee that I would get 1371, and the way it was explained to me was the same that I had read online. He explained that he could do something to where I could say that I didn't want to be involved in aircraft, and then a job would be picked for me from the many ground job openings that would be available to me from my ASVAB score.

I have yet to take the real ASVAB, so that's why I have so many backups. I don't have very many worries about doing poorly, just a precaution.

But the way he explained it to me, didn't sound quite right. Because I've come to understand that I don't even really sign a contract for a certain MOS it's the job field (e.g. Sign a contract for 13 hoping to get Combat Engineer and get Bulk Fuel Specialist, depending on the Corps needs at the time). Personally, I don't like the idea and if that's the reality I have to face then so be it, but is there any way around this? It would really suck going through boot camp thinking "Yeah! I get to be a 1371!" and get all excited, just at the end of boot camp being told that "Recruit, you're new MOS is Bulk Fuel Engineer. Congratulations." To me, that would suck. And I have no idea if that's how it actually goes, and I don't have nothing against a Bulk Fuel, it's just the easiest one to type. It has a flow to it.

I was reading this thread(http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/sh...ght=Guaranteed) and it totally caught me off guard. The way I reading it, it was basically saying that you can wait for a job to open up and take it? How does that work if you have to sign for a field and not a MOS?

Am I taking that how thread out of context and just not understanding what should be at face value?

Something I haven't found a whole lot of information on is officers, and I am really curious about it. I'm not very fond of the idea, I have a one sided view on officers as I stand right now, and it probably won't earn me any brownie points with many people.

Is it worth it to become an officer?
From what I understand, politics takes a big part in how they get promoted, is this true?

I have a few other questions, but I'll save them for a later date to use along with the ones I'll gain from the questions answered here, hopefully anyways. I really don't want to clutter up this board.



If this is too long winded, I do apologize, I just want questions answered that I don't know how to word in person properly, or my recruiter avoids sometimes. It's kinda like they answer a question, but you don't really feel like it got answered. I've become accustomed to it, but I do dislike it very much.

Thank you all in advance for the assistance.

[josephd]

First off, an E-9 would be a Master Gunnery Sergeant or a Sergeant Major.

As far as MOS's go, there is no way to guarantee you will get any particular MOS. You get contracted to a field and then the Corps puts you where they need you. So yes you could sign a 13xx contract hoping for Combat Engineer but then end up being Bulk Fuel(I am bulk fuel and had a few guys who thought they were getting engineers). Just like infantry, you sign a 03xx contract and then could end up as an 0311,21,31,51,52....

Being an officer is a completely different animal than the enlisted side. Whether its worth it or not is a question only you can answer by determining what you are really looking for. I was to be an officer originally and still wanted top be up until recently when I decided I'd rather be a locked on enlisted Marine. Politics play a big part in promotion after the rank of Captain mostly.

[Breake]

I totally meant to type E-8, but at least I'll know what an E-9 is now. Greatly appreciate it.

I don't believe it was my recruiter who told me this, but let's say that I signed up, picked my field, doesn't matter which, by the time that it is up for re-enlistment, I'm under the impression that I can pick to do a lateral move over to become a 1371, regardless really of what I pick for my first MOS. I'm sure there are exceptions, but just in general is this true?

If the politics start at Captain, that's only an O-3. That's still relatively early on in the ladder climbing that one would probably hope for.

So I'd assume promotion from 2ndLt to 1stLt would be luck of the draw?

Are there really any pros to being an officer aside from outranking all the enlisted? Aside from the respect I'd pray that they would give to guys who have been in for 15 years compared to their two.

[josephd]

I totally meant to type E-8, but at least I'll know what an E-9 is now. Greatly appreciate it.

I don't believe it was my recruiter who told me this, but let's say that I signed up, picked my field, doesn't matter which, by the time that it is up for re-enlistment, I'm under the impression that I can pick to do a lateral move over to become a 1371, regardless really of what I pick for my first MOS. I'm sure there are exceptions, but just in general is this true?

If the politics start at Captain, that's only an O-3. That's still relatively early on in the ladder climbing that one would probably hope for.

So I'd assume promotion from 2ndLt to 1stLt would be luck of the draw?

Are there really any pros to being an officer aside from outranking all the enlisted? Aside from the respect I'd pray that they would give to guys who have been in for 15 years compared to their two.

I beleive when you lat move and/or re-enlist you can pick a specific MOS (I could be wrong).

2nd Lt, 1st Lt, and then to Capt. are all time in grade/time in service promotions. It is once you reach Capt./O-3 that you submit a package to an O-4/Major selection board. And while Capt. is only an O-3 you can hold many many high responsibility billets/jobs with that rank. Being a Capt. is not a junior Marine by any means and not really considered early in the ladder like you put it.

There is pros obviously but there is also cons, especially from an enlisted Marines perspective. Such things as hours of administrative work and a big one for me that steered myself away from becoming an officer is the hands on one on one time with your Marines you take care of. As an officer you don't get the close interaction you would as an NCO/SNCO. I would love to be able to mentor and lead a group of Marine but realized that I would rather do it with a more hands on approach. Not from behind the scenes.

[03Mike]

Just to chime in on a couple of things.

First, requesting a lateral move to a new MOS at re-enlistment. Keep in mind that it is still dictated by "the needs of the Marine Corps". Is the MOS you are in "short" at the time? Is the MOS you want to go to "short" or "over". No guarantees. Period.

Second, concerning the officer thing...

Promotion from second lieutenant to first lieutenant is pretty much automatic (unless you are a major screw up - in my time I knew two who never made the cut to make first lieutenant).

Promotion from first lieutenant to captain is a little more selective, but most first lieutenants make it to captain. You do have to submit a promotion package to go from 1st lieutenant to captain. A bigger issue is augmenting from being a reserve officer to the regular Marine Corps. Practically every (if not every) second lieutenant on active duty is commissioned in the Marine Reserve. There is a selection process by which every officer must compete for selection from the reserve to the "regular" Marine Corps. What this means is that a second lieutenant comes in under a timed contract - "X number" of years. If you do not augment into the regulars, then you are discharged at your EAS (end of active service). If you do augment, then you may stay on active duty on toward retirement provided you continue to be promoted on track (generally, if you get passed over for promotion twice, you're on your way out). When I was augmented, the selection rate was right around 10 percent. So out of my regiment, there were, I think, 28 of us up for augmentation -- three of us were selected. Of the three, one was lateral moved from infantry to logistics.

Promotion to Captain really isn't all that political. It is based primarily on competence. Politics really doesn't come into play - but keep in mind that you're seeking promotion to captain after about 5 years, and you'll be a captain for about 5 years (yes, it varies based upon the needs of the Corps).

From my experience, I'd say that politics really doesn't come into play for officer promotions until going from Major to Lieutenant Colonel and above. Very much the case for going above Lieutenant Colonel.

One other thing to keep in mind - while you can get a guaranteed occupational field in your enlistment contract, that's not the way it works for officers. Unless you are on a contract to go to flight school, your MOS is assigned while you are at the basic school (TBS) - and that is based upon your standing in class (academic GPA, physical fitness, and leadership scores), the needs of the Marine Corps, and then and only then, your personal desires. Being an Officer of Marines is your profession, your MOS is merely your job. As an infantry officer, I also spent time running a chow hall, as a public affairs officer, as a logistics officer - hell, I even spent time as the air officer for an infantry battalion.


To expand on what Josephd said - as an officer you are still involved closely with your Marines, but you have to keep in in perspective. As a lieutenant, you are very involved with your Marines, but primarily through your NCOs and your platoon sergeant. As an officer you need to ensure that your Marines are trained and are effective - and the way to do that is through your NCOs. As an officer you should be leading (not micro-managing) your NCOs. They will teach and train the lance corporals, PFCs, and privates. There is a lot that you can learn from them, and a lot that you can teach them. Don't think that you are going to teach them their jobs - but as a lieutenant you need to ensure that they know how you think tactically, and you need to ensure that they know how to lead your platoon, because it's a very real possibility that that will be necessary. Likewise, the best NCOs also need to start learning how to lead and employ the company - that isn't as likely, but the better that a squad leader understands how to fight a platoon and company, the better he will be able to lead and fight with his squad. He's the backbone - and don't forget - he's an officer and a leader. Becoming a non-commissioned officer isn't easy - the Corps doesn't give away corporal chevrons and damn sure doesn't give away sergeant chevrons.

[DrZ]

Breake,
Let's look at this from a different route. You are 17 and currently the Marines are full as far as many of the fields. Why not stay in school for a while and let the troop strength settle down some. There was a glut of people available during war and now the Marines are going to decrease their numbers down to a peace time Marine Corps. When this happens, you don't get as many people running to the recruiters to join. MOS slots open and there is a push to fulfill quotas. At that time, you have a better chance of getting the field you want due to it potentially being available.

After spending 8 years as enlisted.... I can tell you I had a great time. However, if I had it to do all over again.... I would not have partied as hard at University and got my degree when I was 22. Then I would have signed up as an Officer of Marines. The pay is better...the BS is not really less but different. Listen to 03Mike. Being a Major (O4) in the Corps speaks volumes for him.

You have time so use it to consider ALL your options. When you finish your degree, if you still want to be enlisted you can do so easily since you will still be a young man. If you decide to become an Officer of Marines.... you will have that option as well.

[UMDStudent24]

So I'd assume promotion from 2ndLt to 1stLt would be luck of the draw?

Are there really any pros to being an officer aside from outranking all the enlisted? Aside from the respect I'd pray that they would give to guys who have been in for 15 years compared to their two.

If you don't think the opportunity to lead Marines is a pro, you shouldn't consider being an Officer.

The promotion from Second Lieutenant to First Lieutenant is something that is all but automatic after the appropriate time in service and time in grade requirements. Practically all Officers will receive this promotion; only those who are absolute s***birds and have found every possible opportunity to screw up will not. Those guys will also be pushed out of the Marine Corps.

[UMDStudent24]

Just to chime in on a couple of things.

Second, concerning the officer thing...

Promotion from second lieutenant to first lieutenant is pretty much automatic (unless you are a major screw up - in my time I knew two who never made the cut to make first lieutenant).

Promotion from first lieutenant to captain is a little more selective, but most first lieutenants make it to captain. You do have to submit a promotion package to go from 1st lieutenant to captain. A bigger issue is augmenting from being a reserve officer to the regular Marine Corps. Practically every (if not every) second lieutenant on active duty is commissioned in the Marine Reserve. There is a selection process by which every officer must compete for selection from the reserve to the "regular" Marine Corps. What this means is that a second lieutenant comes in under a timed contract - "X number" of years. If you do not augment into the regulars, then you are discharged at your EAS (end of active service). If you do augment, then you may stay on active duty on toward retirement provided you continue to be promoted on track (generally, if you get passed over for promotion twice, you're on your way out). When I was augmented, the selection rate was right around 10 percent. So out of my regiment, there were, I think, 28 of us up for augmentation -- three of us were selected. Of the three, one was lateral moved from infantry to logistics.

Promotion to Captain really isn't all that political. It is based primarily on competence. Politics really doesn't come into play - but keep in mind that you're seeking promotion to captain after about 5 years, and you'll be a captain for about 5 years (yes, it varies based upon the needs of the Corps).

From my experience, I'd say that politics really doesn't come into play for officer promotions until going from Major to Lieutenant Colonel and above. Very much the case for going above Lieutenant Colonel.

My apologies Sir, I did not see that you had already answered the question.

[Breake]

I'm not from a very wealthy family and I'm at a very crappy Technical school that explained that I will get an Associates from them when I complete my two years, however that won't happen. I will get a piece of paper patting me on the back and saying that I completed 2 years with them. That's it. If I want my big bucks degree, I'll either have to take out student loans, or have family pay for it. I refuse to get a student loan. Absolutely refuse. Welding, I can make 2 grand a week, however that isn't a guarantee. I don't even have a guarantee I'll have a job. I'm not going to take 100k in a student loan or however much it is after my scholarships, and fail to make a payment on it because I can't work and am forced to work at Kroger or something. I see the military as a way out of that.

The Marines are the best of the best. The few, the proud, the Marines. I went and talked to an Army recruiter before I talked to the Marines and he refused to tell me anything, saying I had to sign a contract before he would talk to me. I just got up and walked out and haven't though about the army since. I don't want the Navy because I know a lot of people who are in it and are absolute dimwits. I'm not going to judge a service by just a few people, because every service of this nation is exceptional in what it does. The Air Force has like an eight month wait, I've had two friends try to join and they didn't want to wait so they went with the Army. Not a single person I know has ever went in the Marines, and that's sticking out to me for more than one reason.

I've been working since I was twelve with my father and a lot of the stuff I own, I bought with my own money. Neither of my parents are glad about me joining the Marines, my dad got drunk one night and and fought me because he wanted me to go into the National Guard.

I don't have any friends aside from the people who are in my classes at school, who are all 25+. None of the people from when I was in high school/middle school with kids my age, I don't have those friends. I don't even go out and do much, just sit at home and go to the gym every now and again. I've weighed my options pretty well, but I am still a kid, and I am still considering.

I don't want to become an officer because it seems political in the sense that they're doing everything to better themselves. It's a complicated subject just like everything else. I've met a few officers who were total jackholes to me during the conversations I've had with them. I've talked with my friends and only one of them said he had a commanding officer at one point that wasn't full of himself. I am far from saying that all officers are like that, because I know they aren't. Just like I know not all recruiters are not like that one I had to deal with at the Army. If I'm stretching the use of 'political' I don't know what other word to use, so that's what I use...

@UMDStudent, I think that the opportunity to lead Marines is a fantastic pro, but that's not the spectrum of pros I was looking to, I apologize.

But when you're an officer, you don't really have a job? It's just wherever they put you?

I really don't know how to word this, but what I'm gathering from that is if they want you to be a 1301, a Basic Combat Engineer Officer, they can put you in that, and then yank you from that and put you in 0430, a Mobility Officer, just depending on what they need?

Or, let's say I was a 1371 for my first four years by chance, I managed to get my Bachelors in something and went to officer candidate school to try and become a 1301, Basic Combat Engineer Officer. Despite having 4 years already being a 1371, and going to OCS to become a 1301, they'd put me in something such as a Mobility Officer?

The reason I'm avoiding Intelligence is because I don't want to sit around behind a desk or do much paperwork. I've worked with my hands all my life, and that's what I like to do. that's why my first two jobs were 1371, and maybe the CBRN. They seem to be a lot more active in what they do without me having to be infantry.

Also, when you go through Officer School, do they send you to job school much like they do with your MOS as an Enlisted?

[UMDStudent24]

@UMDStudent, I think that the opportunity to lead Marines is a fantastic pro, but that's not the spectrum of pros I was looking to, I apologize.

But when you're an officer, you don't really have a job? It's just wherever they put you?

I really don't know how to word this, but what I'm gathering from that is if they want you to be a 1301, a Basic Combat Engineer Officer, they can put you in that, and then yank you from that and put you in 0430, a Mobility Officer, just depending on what they need?

Or, let's say I was a 1371 for my first four years by chance, I managed to get my Bachelors in something and went to officer candidate school to try and become a 1301, Basic Combat Engineer Officer. Despite having 4 years already being a 1371, and going to OCS to become a 1301, they'd put me in something such as a Mobility Officer?

The reason I'm avoiding Intelligence is because I don't want to sit around behind a desk or do much paperwork. I've worked with my hands all my life, and that's what I like to do. that's why my first two jobs were 1371, and maybe the CBRN. They seem to be a lot more active in what they do without me having to be infantry.

Also, when you go through Officer School, do they send you to job school much like they do with your MOS as an Enlisted?

The Officer accession route begins with the OSO, the Officer Selection Officer. They serve as the equivalent of a Marine recruiter for the Officer side. They will interview you, evaluate your potential, explain the process to you, and help you put an application package. You have to apply for a slot at Officer Candidate School, and there are many additional requirements beyond what is needed for an enlisted contract (such as a 1st Class PFT score, letters of recommendation, an essay, etc.) Now, when you do this application, your OSO will ask if you're interested in pursuing a ground contract, a law contract, or an air contract.

Air contracts, if fully qualified and meet all requirements, will become Naval Aviators and Naval Flight Officers. Law contracts, again following successful completion of OCS and meeting all other requirements, will serve as Judge Advocates.
Finally, there is a ground contract. If you apply under a ground contract and are accepted and complete OCS you have absolutely no limit on what MOS you will serve except that you will not be law (even that may be possible, I'm not entirely sure...)

Our MOS is not decided at OCS. After you complete OCS and commission as a 2nd Lt., you will report to The Basic School which, like OCS, is conducted at MCB Quantico. The Basic School is 26 weeks in duration and is where Officers learn the basics of commanding a rifle platoon commander; every Marine a rifleman, every Marine Officer a rifle platoon commander. At TBS, you will be evaluated and graded in everything you do. At the end of TBS you will be ranked based among your peers based upon those evaluations. This is where it gets somewhat confusing. Your MOS is determined at the end of TBS. It is assigned in accordance with the needs of the Marine Corps, the recommendation of the staff, and your preference (in that order.)

It gets tricky because your graduating class is divided into thirds by grade. Top third, middle third, and bottom third. For every MOS, the Marine Corps attempts to fill out its slots with an equal distribution of top third graduates, middle third graduates, and bottom third graduates.

So, for example, in a class of 300, there will be 3 groups of 100. If the Marine Corps needs 30 Officers to be 0302 (Infantry Officer) 10 slots will go to each group. If the top 10 graduates of each third want Infantry Officer and the staff supports it, those 30 graduates get Infantry Officer.

Does this make sense? There is a significant amount of literature available that can better explain MOS selection.

Check this guide for a more detailed explanation:
http://www.chicagomarineofficer.com/MOSGuide.htm


After TBS and MOS selection, you will report to your respective facility for MOS training just as any enlisted Marine would report to MOS school after MCT. So, as to your second question, yes Officers do have job training just as enlisted Marines do.

[03Mike]

But when you're an officer, you don't really have a job? It's just wherever they put you?

You definitely have a defined job as an officer - and frequently you'll have more than one. Personally, my MOS was 0302 - Infantry Officer, but there is a caveat that an officer agrees to execute "other duties as assigned". To a large degree, the same philosopy applies to the enliste Marine too. You may be a 1371, but you better beleive that you'll spend time stacking boxes in the warehouse, performing maintenance on vehicles, and probably even serving chow when your unit deploys to an expeditionary base (not to mention burning the barrels of crap from the field heads - somehow that seems to go with a discussion of field chow).

As an officer, your primary MOS is your primary job. If you are an combat engineer officer, then that's what you'll do. After your first 3 or 4 years in the fleet, you will probably be assigned to what we call a "B" billet - a job outside of your MOS. In my case, I went to Parris Island for three years to be a recruit training officer. I had friends who went to barracks duty, became a general's aide, went to recruiting duty, went to sea duty.


Now, a couple of personal notes - me to you:

1. Don't let anyone talk you into one thing over another - whether to enlist or become an officer. Just like not everyone is cut out to be a Marine, being an Officer of Marines is not for everyone. My advice - do what you are doing - do your homework, check out your options, and pick the route that fits you best - and if that is enlisting under a guaranteed combat engineer contract, then good on you. If you excell, then you will eventually become a non-commissioned officer (but an officer nonetheless) and lead Marines.

2. Don't give up on college. There are many options that will cost you much less than $100 grand - especially if you choose to enlist. Once you get a couple of years under your belt and get locked on in your primary MOS you will be able to use your active duty tuition assistance benefit to pursue college one or two courses at a time while on active duty - then there is the Post 9-11 GI Bill. Even if you don't enlist and decide to pursue life as a welder, there are many options available for part time college for working adults - again taking one or two courses at a time. Yes, it'll take a while taking courses at that pace, but it is still the best way to take control of your future. As you said, you can make $2 grand a week welding, but you can also make $200 some weeks.

You're young and you have time - set your goals and stay focused on them.

Good luck!