Mustangs

[asherdasher114]

I did a search for this, but I couldn't find anything pertaining to my exact question. I am curious to get input from current and previous Marines on the topic of officers who were not previously enlisted and officers who were enlisted. I know that all Marines have respect for all officers, but do/did you have more respect for a previously enlisted officer? Do you think it is more beneficial to become an officer after enlisting, like with the enlisted to commissioned program?

The reason I ask is because I have graduated college and am currently in grad school. After I graduated, I kind of knew that I didn't want to go to school anymore and began looking into the Marine Corps. My parents were not happy about it at all, so I told them I would give school another year before I made a decision. I did that, and I hate it. All I want to do right now is become a Marine. I looked into the officer program, and began the application process. My problem is that I am female and have a tattoo on my ankle that needed a waiver. This waiver got denied, so I was pretty bummed. I was talking to the first recruiter that I ever talked to about the Marines, and he told me that the tattoo wouldn't be a problem on the enlisted side. I think I have made up my mind to go enlisted and then go officer after my first tour (unless I really love being enlisted, then I will stay). I am just curious if Marines think this is a waste of time, or if I will be a more distinguished officer down the line.

I know this is kind of jumping the gun, but I am in the process of becoming a poolee. I just don't want to make any quick decisions and regret it down the line.

[tdrt]

In my opinion, being enlisted prior to becoming an officer enables you to better understand the concerns of an enlisted. You have to be able to follow before you can be an effective leader. Whichever route you choose, you will never regret becoming a Marine.

Any way of having that tatoo removed?

[asherdasher114]

Unfortunately I don't exactly have the funds to get it removed, and it does mean a lot to me right now. The OSO that I was working with also told me that getting it removed would not guarantee that another waiver would be accepted (I guess you have to get a waiver for getting the tattoo removed too). I will most likely get it removed while I am enlisted. The reason you stated for going enlisted to officer is the exact reason I want to do it. I don't think you can be an effective leader until you have been in the shoes of those you are leading.

[TinDragon]

If you would be accepted on the enlisted side but not the officer side for a tattoo, going enlisted isn't going to help, you still won't be able to become an officer. Even enlisted folks who were "grandfathered" under the newest tattoo policy (had their tattoos before the policy came out) are no longer permitted to become officers with those tattoos, so you'd have to get it removed to have a chance. It seems a little strange that a tattoo on the ankle would prevent you from becoming an officer though, I don't remember that being prevented in the policy. Of course, getting it removed while enlisted might solve all of those problems.

I agree with tdrt on enlisted before officer though... they definitely know what they're doing more than the straight to officer folks do.

[asherdasher114]

I'm not 100% sure why the waiver was denied, since the district CO (I think that's who denied it) didn't give a reason. I am a female, so it can be seen in a skirt, but I was also told from a recruiter that I would just have to wear pants, so it wasn't a big deal. Ultimately, your guess is as good as mine as to why it was a problem. I do plan on getting it removed while I am enlisted though.

[Lisa 23]

Just curious...you have a pic of this tattoo on your ankle to show us Marines here what it looks like and where it's located on the ankle?

[asherdasher114]

I have uploaded a picture in an album in my profile. It is not the best picture, but should give you a good enough idea. It does fit within regulations regarding the ability to be covered by one's hand (for size estimation).

[hussaf]

Hey Asher, first off what is your recruiter's first name? I knew a Schmid from that area who would prob. be a SSgt. right now. He was originally a reservist but didn't like it too much and went active duty as much as he could...maybe he made it permanent.

About your original question: being enlisted first will pretty much always give one an initial, predetermined, level of respect from the enlisted people that person works for. But the level of respect you earn in the Marine Corps is determined by you...whether its from officers or enlisted.

Getting experience as an enlisted person first is generally a good thing. Just understand that, when you become an officer, you are no longer a pipe-swinger (or only are until Capt., maybe). You are hands-off the day-to-day work and your job becomes making sure your guys/gals are properly taken care of and capable of obtaining mission accomplishment.

To simplify, officers deal with the bureaucracy crap so it doesn't affect the enlisted folks' ability to accomplish tasks. Just be aware that these are generally two different versions of the Marine Corps experience. And if you Mustang, you have to make that transition from pipe-swinger to officer. You can do a lot of good in the Marines as either enlisted or commissioned, you just have to determine which you think you are best suited to (or try both). Either way, hopefully you'll have a productive and positive experience as a Marine. Even people who say they hate being in, more often than not, look back on their experience as positive and something that changed their lives/themselves for the better.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Oh, crap. You might get rejected on the enlisted side as well. That tat could be considered to have 'racist/supremacist' overtones.

[asherdasher114]

His name is Adam. Although I am from Milwaukee, I am going through the Mt. Prospect (Chicago area) station, which is where he is located.
The description you give of officers is definitely not the picture they paint in the things I found about the program. I am glad you brought this to my attention. I have been a manager at a restaurant in my past, so I think I would be okay with that type of responsibility. But at the same time, I like to be hands on and doing things myself, not just telling people what to do. I guess time will tell, as I need to sign the contract and make it through Parris Island first!
Kind of random, but do you know if lets say I get accepted for OCS after I've been enlisted, but decide not to commission if I could re-enlist? I always seem to come up with more questions than answers the more research I do.

[hussaf]

Yeah, don't know the answer to that one. If you are saying after you've been enlisted and an officer can you go back to being enlisted...I don't know how that works but my uncle did it in the Army and it is highly unusual.

If you are saying can you get accepted to the OCS program, but change your mind and go enlisted...that all depends on the specifics. If you sign and MEPS and everything, and there is a boat space for your OCS seat...and you change your mind and want to go enlisted...well you'll probably have a pretty annoyed OSO/recruiter on your hands, but I'm not sure how that works exactly. Ask SSgt. Schmid, the look on his face will be your answer.

[asherdasher114]

Sgt Leprechaun - Please don't take this the wrong way, as I see you are a decorated Marine and I don't want to disrespect you, but are you serious? It is in no way, shape, or form related to anything to do with Nazi's, if that's the problem you see with it. If I have to provide a statement about it for a waiver or something, I have no problem with that though.

[hussaf]

Sgt Leprechaun - Please don't take this the wrong way, as I see you are a decorated Marine and I don't want to disrespect you, but are you serious? It is in no way, shape, or form related to anything to do with Nazi's, if that's the problem you see with it. If I have to provide a statement about it for a waiver or something, I have no problem with that though.

In the Marine Corps, perception is reality. If Sgt. Lep perceived it as potentially offensive, someone else will to. All's he's saying is that the person who makes that decision may come to the same conclusion. I know Marines with the straight-up, actual, Iron Eagle (or whatever its called) tat (sans swastika, of course) due to German heritage and they are good...but recent tattoo regulations are pretty darn tight. When you get it checked out again, if no one says anything, I wouldn't worry about it. Make sure its a Marine though...someone in my bootcamp platoon had issues at processing b/c of a tat that passed MEPS/recruiter. Again, shouldn't be an issue.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Hussaf nailed it.

The link from this:


http://www.stahlhelms.com/army-helmet-decal.jpg


To yours isn't much of a leap. And no offense meant, or taken. But I'm a militaria collector and a long time student of history (I have helmets with this decal) and that was the FIRST thing I thought of. As hussaf said, if I can get there....others can to.

[Lisa 23]

Sgt Leprechaun - Please don't take this the wrong way, as I see you are a decorated Marine and I don't want to disrespect you, but are you serious? It is in no way, shape, or form related to anything to do with Nazi's, if that's the problem you see with it. If I have to provide a statement about it for a waiver or something, I have no problem with that though.

Maybe you should read the Marine Corps policy and see why Sgt Leprechaun said what he did.

d. Tattoos or brands that are prejudicial to good order, discipline and morale, or are of a nature to bring discredit upon the Marine Corps. These may include, but are not limited to, any tattoo that is sexist, racist, vulgar, anti-american, anti-social, gang related, or extremest group or organization related.

Corps clears up tattoo policy

2/4/2010
By Gunnery Sgt. Bill Lisbon, Marine Corps Air Station Yuma


MARINE CORPS AIR STATION YUMA, Ariz. — The Marine Corps released additional rules to its tattoo policy last month, banning more places on the body where Marines cannot get them and setting tougher rules for officers.

In addition to the already prohibited head and neck, Marines cannot get tattoos or brands on their hands, fingers, wrists or inside their mouths, according to Marine Administrative Message 29/10 released Jan. 15, 2010.

Both commissioned and warrant officers are now limited to four tattoos or brands visible when wearing the standard physical training uniform, according to the new policy.

The policy’s intent is “to ensure Marines can be assigned whenever and wherever they are needed,” stated the message.

The recent change helped to clarify the March 2007 overhaul of the Corps’ tattoo policy, which prohibited excessive tattoos covering arms and legs.

“I believe tattoos of an excessive nature do not represent our traditional values. Some have taken the liberty of tattooing themselves to a point that is contrary to our professional demeanor and the high standards America has come to expect from us,” said Gen. James T. Conway, commandant of the Marine Corps, in a March 19, 2007, message.

The new policy also clarified the size of any tattoos visible in PT uniforms cannot be larger than the wearer’s hand with fingers extended and joined and the thumb touching the base of the index finger. The 2007 policy was vague on the size, stating only that very large tattoos or collections of smaller tattoos covering all or most of a person’s arms or legs – also called sleeve tattoos – were unauthorized.

For officers, band tattoos wider than 2 inches are now prohibited. Enlisted Marines are allowed bands only as wide as one quarter of the arm or leg where it is tattooed as seen in the PT uniform. Band tattoos can either partially or fully encircle the circumference of the arm or leg.
Additionally, any enlisted Marine who had grandfathered sleeve tattoos can no longer apply for any Marine Corps commissioning or warrant officer programs.

“A Marine with tattoos doesn’t mean you’re a bad Marine,” said Sgt. Maj. William Wiseman, Headquarters and Headquarters Squadron sergeant major. “However, since tattoos are a visual reminder of your personal thoughts, feelings and ideas, a Marine with visible tattoos may not be the best candidate for a high-profile assignment. Since the Marine Corps has the most recognizable uniform in the world, this makes the Corps a high-profile assignment. … You joined the Corps; the Corps didn’t join you.”

In September 2008, Marines with excessive tattoos were banned from holding the special-duty assignments of recruiter and Marine security guard at U.S. embassies. Marines in those jobs “have a significant impact on public perception,” according to MarAdmin 494/08.

The recent message also reiterated that tattoos or brands continue to be subject to review in some cases pertaining to promotion, future assignments and training to determine if any might tarnish the Corps’ reputation.

Any tattoos that are racist, sexist, drug-related, vulgar, anti-American or are associated with any extremist group or gang are already not permitted on Marines.

The new policy also banned apparently invisible tattoos that use ultraviolet ink only visible under a black light.

Marines who currently have any of the now-prohibited tattoos won’t face any punishment, but they must document the tattoos with photos in their service record books no later than June 1, 2010.

Lance Cpl. Jakob Schulz contributed to this report.

http://www.usmc.mil/unit/mcasyuma/Pages/20100204tattoo.aspx

[Lisa 23]

Hussaf nailed it.

The link from this:


http://www.stahlhelms.com/army-helmet-decal.jpg



To yours isn't much of a leap. And no offense meant, or taken. But I'm a militaria collector and a long time student of history (I have helmets with this decal) and that was the FIRST thing I thought of. As hussaf said, if I can get there....others can to.


They are both pretty darn close....even if you say it's the German family crest of the first king.

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2347&pictureid=10226
This is the German family crest of the first king. The saying goes all the way around my ankle and means 'from hardships come wisdom'.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it IMO. BUT it brings to mind 'the other' thing and can EASILY be mis-interpreted. Thus, it's banned.

[Komenko]

Well i for one don't find it racist! I didn't come to the same ideas others came to when viewing it. I've seen worse when i was in before and after the policy came about. its a coat of arms! if people would ask first what it represents then maybe they will be more informed before "jumping to conclusions".

[Sgt Leprechaun]

AND don't get me wrong, I know exactly what it means and don't think that either.

But....it's NOT up to me.

[hussaf]

Well i for one don't find it racist! I didn't come to the same ideas others came to when viewing it. I've seen worse when i was in before and after the policy came about. its a coat of arms! if people would ask first what it represents then maybe they will be more informed before "jumping to conclusions".

I think everyone in this thread understands its a coat of arms...and no one is accusing this lady of being a neo-Nazi. This is a common image for coats of arms throughout Europe and even some Eastern Bloc areas (which I guess is still Europe).

I've seen worse tattoos as well, hence my previous statement that this one shouldn't be a problem. We are just bringing up the possibility that someone might take issue. Asking first isn't always the policy in the military. Sure, that is unfair, but so is many aspects of military life.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Get it Lasered off no Biggy :evilgrin: :iwo:

[asherdasher114]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think it proves my point that I can't get the same answer from two people. It's all in the eyes of the beholder I guess. My recruiter told me that it won't be a problem, but if I have to write something about why I have it and what it means to me I will.
I have never seen it like in the image Sgt Leprechaun posted, so that it why I thought it was within Marine Corps policy. Now, I do see why it could be taken as being anti-American.

[GSEMarine94]

I am a mustang, the only difference is I went from being an enlisted Marine to an Army officer (Naional Guard). Being prior enlisted helps me in multiple different ways...

-I have been in their shoes and know what it takes to get them to work for me better then a non-prior service LT who comes in throwing his bar around. Yes they'll follow orders but my guys always go above and beyond what I ask them to do.
- I also know when they are attempting to blow smoke up my azz.
- My SNCO's do work harder for me then my counterpart's due to the fact that they know I was an NCO and that I expect great things from them.

Being prior service also hurts me at times...

- As previously mentioned you need to know when to stay in your own lane. My Platoon SGT has had to tell me a couple of times to let him do his job, and I should because if I am trying to do his job then I am not doing mine.

[MUSTANG0369]

There are a ton of Mustang officers in the Corps. Some are awesome, some are not. That being said, the Marines will know if you are a prior. Your seniors, in most cases, are uninterested in your prior career as enlisted. Know this. The Marine Corps could care less about what you did last month, last year or in my case the last 14 years. What are you doing for me today, that is the question.

The key is consistent performance in each job, billet, rank and duty. If you do this you will be fine. Rest on your laurels, and you will find yourself applying to 1st Civ Div.

The last point I will touch on is humility. You must understand if you choose to go the officer route, that you do not know it all. There will be brand new freshly minted Lts that are intelligent, organized, and natural leaders. They will be behind at first, but once they get the hang of it could run circles around you. Be humble, and offer help when needed, but take advice and criticism when it is sent your way.

Hate to be all philosophical and the such, but too many people think that good enlisted Marines make good officers. Not the case. Some good enlisted Marines make good officers, some make the best SNCO's in all the services, and some make great civilians. There is no set answer on how Mustangs are viewed.

[HereandThere]

http://www.cruisingdaytona.com/ebimage/LPS/GEN/LPS403.jpgLot's of people around here have this license plate on their cars.Nothing to do with the Nazi's.
But I find it VERY INTERESTING that some of them can't tell you their whereabouts from 1939-1945.Hmmmmmmmmm.

[hussaf]

ahh, that's what it reminds me of...it was a coat of arms in the latter part of the Holy Roman Empire before being the coat of arms for Germania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Germany

[asherdasher114]

Just an update. I am taking oath and signing my contract on Monday! Apparently the tattoo doesn't seem to be a problem. Although I'm guessing it can still be looked at by the CO at any time.
Does anyone know if you are issued socks that are high enough to cover it up in PT gear?

[Lisa 23]

I'm almost positive that you get issued ankle socks now, at least my nephew did when he was in boot camp June -August of last year.

[tdrt]

Just an update. I am taking oath and signing my contract on Monday! Apparently the tattoo doesn't seem to be a problem. Although I'm guessing it can still be looked at by the CO at any time.


That is awesome -- Congrats! Let us know your ship date.

[hussaf]

Just an update. I am taking oath and signing my contract on Monday! Apparently the tattoo doesn't seem to be a problem. Although I'm guessing it can still be looked at by the CO at any time.
Does anyone know if you are issued socks that are high enough to cover it up in PT gear?

LOL, yep. Our socks were plenty high and we always had to make sure they were pulled up. Not sure if the girls were different, or if there are different socks these days...I went to bootcamp in '01.