Marine Boot Camp Drop Out %

[Army MP]

Can a Marine tell me why the USMC Boot Camp washout rate is so low? I was thinking around 20-25%, however Army and Navy is actually higher. It also has been higher in previous years as well.

Marine Boot Camp is supposed to be the most challenging initial recruit training in the U.S. Military, so why is the wash-out rate so low?

Do they make you graduate due to low funding? Are the recruiters more prone to get stronger recruits?

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/l/blbasicattrit.htm

Just wondering, because I myself am interested in becoming a Marine after my contract with the Army is up. Some insight would be awesome.

Thank you Marines

[Alisium]

Probably because of recruiting policy. There's only 202,000 Marines. The Navy has almost 500K and the Army over one million (counting ANG and Reserves).

There are less seats to fill so recruiters can implement better filtering processes before recruit training.

That would be my guess at least.

[Alisium]

I'm sure it is an fiscal issues as well. The Marine Corps receives only a fraction of what the other services receive (in non combat operations funding) so they have to be careful not to waste money on high attrition rates.

[GSEMarine94]

You have to look at the numbers, 11.7% of how many VS 13.6 of how many. The Army trains how many thousands more then the Marines? The numbers are not used as a comparison between the two and should not be used as such.

When I went to boot we lost about 40% of the platoon, started with 107 by 2nd phase we were down close to 60. We picked up a couple at the end of 2nd phase and graduated 76.

[Army MP]

Regardless of the #'s a % has nothing to do with mass quantity nor small quantity. I am gonna agree with the other Marine. It has to be something with funding, they already spent so much on you and they are gonna make your ass graduate.

I also know the Army/Navy will pick up anybody. I have seen people as retarded as you can be before you a legal retard in the Army. Are the Marine really that selective towards recruiting? I also know that most people who seek out to be a Marine are usually pretty tough individuals to begin with.

My guess is the USMC recycle rate is much higher then other branches, however I could not find anything on it.

[Army MP]

A little off topic, however I would like to know. Is SOI challenging?

[GSEMarine94]

Regardless of the #'s a % has nothing to do with mass quantity nor small quantity. I am gonna agree with the other Marine. It has to be something with funding, they already spent so much on you and they are gonna make your ass graduate.

% does have something to do with quantity it is a direct relationship of the overall numbers, 10% of 100 is 10, 10% of 1000 is 100 so unless the final results of the two answers are similar then they are not comparable, it's called math.

I also know the Army/Navy will pick up anybody. I have seen people as retarded as you can be before you a legal retard in the Army. Are the Marine really that selective towards recruiting? I also know that most people who seek out to be a Marine are usually pretty tough individuals to begin with.

Did you just call me retarded you POS? I can't tell because your fuggin grammar resembles that of a 1st grader.

My guess is the USMC recycle rate is much higher then other branches, however I could not find anything on it..

[thewookie]

Regardless of the #'s a % has nothing to do with mass quantity nor small quantity.

The ratio between what or how many you train versus how many you fail is most definitely a factor in why the "numbers" are what they are. I don't my degree in finance to figure that one out.

If you have mass bodies going through a system (Army) then you are going to get more failures. Opposed to a system designed for a limited amount of bodies (Marines) therefore a limited amount of failures are produced.

But trust me, although we hide them the best we can, we have our fair share of idiots who made it through for whatever reason. But for the most part the initial selection or screening weeds out the wussies. Garbage in is garbage out.

As kid, a childhood friend of mine wanted to be a Marine but he didn't score high enough to be in the Corps, however, the Navy took him and made him a paint chipper, true story.

As much as I hate to admit, I'm sure funding has something to do with it, because lets face it, funding factors into a lot of other decisions that are not always on the surface financial.

Also, having taught at a Marine Corps School with a high dropout rate,,, before I worked there. A high dropout rate isn't always a reflection of the toughness of the school or whatnot, it could be a reflection of the caliber and/ or level of instruction. If your instructors, can't or are not effective in delivering the message, and you drop a bunch of people, who's fault is that? The system or the student.

Good luck with your pursuit of our title of One of the Few and the Proud.

[Army MP]

The ratio between what or how many you train versus how many you fail is most definitely a factor in why the "numbers" are what they are. I don't my degree in finance to figure that one out.

If you have mass bodies going through a system (Army) then you are going to get more failures. Opposed to a system designed for a limited amount of bodies (Marines) therefore a limited amount of failures are produced.

But trust me, although we hide them the best we can, we have our fair share of idiots who made it through for whatever reason. But for the most part the initial selection or screening weeds out the wussies. Garbage in is garbage out.

As kid, a childhood friend of mine wanted to be a Marine but he didn't score high enough to be in the Corps, however, the Navy took him and made him a paint chipper, true story.

As much as I hate to admit, I'm sure funding has something to do with it, because lets face it, funding factors into a lot of other decisions that are not always on the surface financial.

Also, having taught at a Marine Corps School with a high dropout rate,,, before I worked there. A high dropout rate isn't always a reflection of the toughness of the school or whatnot, it could be a reflection of the caliber and/ or level of instruction. If your instructors, can't or are not effective in delivering the message, and you drop a bunch of people, who's fault is that? The system or the student.

Good luck with your pursuit of our title of One of the Few and the Proud.

Thank you very much for your answer SGT I appreciate it.

GSEMarine94 did not mean to offend nor **** you off, I apologize if I did either one.

[rvillac2]

This is building on Wookie's point on the caliber of instruction.

Just a few days into boot camp, our recruits already have a strong desire to achieve, graduate, and eventually become their drill instructors. When you look up role model in the dictionary, you see a Marine Corps Drill Instructor.
Our system is built in such a way that it is hard to describe the metamorphasis to an outsider. Sorry to say, but the other services have no equivalent process to our method of making Marines.
You are correct in thinking that our recycle rate is higher, since any number of things can delay a graduation. However, unless there are medical, mental, or criminal defects, we will motivate that recruit and get him through.

[Petz]

you can also take into account that the Army let's people drop out (right?) during training for many reasons... the Marine Corps does not.

the Army has only 72% of it's recruits last year possessing a high school diploma... the Marine Corps 98%

the Army's training is co-ed, resulting in a % of females dropping due to pregnancy... the Marine Corps is not co-ed recruit training... or MCT... right? I don't remember any women at my MCT so I'm only guessing.

the Amry sucks.... the Marine Corps does not.


as far as finances goes... it cost money to send someone through recruit training... keeping them there costs money as well... recycling costs money too... if they are fat it costs money... if they break it costs money.... it's not a financial reason at all.

It is a discipline reason, boot camp is designed to teach you to do as you are ordered, you receive orders before you leave, you will execute those orders. in the end you will know if you felt like quiting for any reason that your reasons to quit were unfounded and you now have more confidence in your abilities.

[Alisium]

as far as finances goes... it cost money to send someone through recruit training... keeping them there costs money as well... recycling costs money too... if they are fat it costs money... if they break it costs money.... it's not a financial reason at all.



But, it still cost to part-train a recruit then drop them. The Marine Corps has paid to recruit them, send them to MEPS (twice if you're in the DEP), ship you to recruit training then train you for however many weeks before they drop you. Let's say you quit at weeks six.

The Marine Corps still needs to fill that position so they incur the cost of doing all that over again, but are only getting one Marine for the price of two (or close to the price of two).

Again, for one Marine, you're paying the initial costs twice when a recruit is dropped.

And dropping a recruit back a week or two because they can't shoot, or sending them to the pork chop platoon for a month, still has to be cheaper in the long run then going through the entire recruiting and shipping process again.

[Quinbo]

I can think of quite a few schools in the Marines where the instructors are under zero pressure to graduate anyone ... If he don't cut the mustard then bye. Boot camp is not one of those schools.

Instead of giving a drill instructor carte blanche to say this kid just is not what we are looking for they are questioned on their training techniques if someone bombs out.

[Buckeye]

:evilgrin:
AIN'T
READY to be
MARINE
YET
:p

[Army MP]

I think I found out some good information on this subject.

# Of Woman in Armed Force / % Of Woman in Armed Force

Army 70,918 / 13.7
Enlisted 57,825 / 13.4
Officers 12,459 / 14.7

Navy 50,904 / 15.0
Enlisted 42,400 / 15.0
Officers 7,649 / 14.8

Marine C. 11,150 / 6.0
Enlisted 10,049 / 6.1
Officers 1,101 / 5.6

Air Force 68,600 / 20.3
Enlisted 54,957 / 20.7
Officers 12,836 / 18.9

In every branch females have a higher washout rate than males. Marines have a significantly less females then any other branch which effects their overall washout % as a branch.

The washout rate is 11% Male and 20% Female.

[Petz]

I think you're an idiot who needs to learn about statistics and percentages more.

if those numbers are # per Branch/% of drop-outs then you are seeing the percentage of those # per branch that "wash out"... not % of overall services.

and to bring OCS into the picture... you should keep in mind that a DOR doesn't count as a drop-out as in failure/kicked out of the program.

besides... these numbers don't have your male numbers in there so your conclusion has no credence.

[UsmcMotorT]

Recruits going to MCRDPI or MCRDSD wants to be Marines.

Alot of other recruits from other branches join for different reasons ie, bonuses, school, etc. Once they go to their respective bootcamp, they can't take the hollering, physical activites, or whatever they walk over and ring that bell.

I work at Fort Eustis and I work with enlisted and officers all day. I am more amazed at how many dumbass 2nd Lts the Army lets through (Transportation Corps). Some of them do not have a college degree, can't pass some of the tests at their Basic Officer Leadership Course, some don't even run their PFT. They pass many of them through. Most are not accountable for their actions either ie, late for formation, failing a test, etc (no consequences).

Like I say, A lot of these 2nd LTs are PFCs with degrees and their attitude, maturity, and demeanor reflects with my assumption.

[thewookie]

I can think of quite a few schools in the Marines where the instructors are under zero pressure to graduate anyone ... If he don't cut the mustard then bye. Boot camp is not one of those schools.


I agree and that is the way it should be, always. Scout Sniper School is the obvious one that comes to mind. But there is a fine line there also - I agree certain schools shouldn't have any pressure to graduate because of standards that have to be upheld. But in the same breath: why did the student fail? Is it because the instructor is arrogant and not willing to train the student, for a multitude of reasons. If that is the case then the instructor needs to be fired.

I referenced this point earlier in this thread about a school having a high failure rate. When I went to MCSF CQB school they failed 40% of the students that went there, 4 out of the 10 students who went through that school back then went home with nothing. It never happened to me, but I'm sure it's not fun to go back to a command after attending a school with nothing. The main reason why the failure rate at the time was so high wasn't solely because four out of ten students couldn't grasp the concept of violent actions and precision shooting, on the move, in close quarters. It was, in part due to instructor attitude and cockiness - they were a bunch of cocky cowboys that didn't want to train the students properly. I am fine with failing the repeated safety violation gang. But it's the slow learning student that has heart.

When I got the job working at CQB school my goal was to get that failure rate down, one out of ten students was my goal. And the last three classes that I worked there it was 10%.

I think if you have a student/recruit that has heart and wants to be part of a team, in our case a CQB team, then I'm gonna find a way to help him through the process. Provide some extra instruction: maybe a little extra training. But I would absolutely positively go the extra mile to create the opportunity to help that student become part of the team.

I'm not promoting overlooking standards in any way shape or form. I am promoting holding instructors to a standard or level of training that goes beyond the 9-5 training schedule, when necessary.

I knew back in the day that the commands that sent these students to us had been prescreened, the command thought they were capable of performing the duties. Maybe we should dig a little deeper before we send the student home with nothing.

I think the Marine Corps in general does this well, I tink that is the primary reason why our failures rates, for the toughest branch, are lower then what you might expect to see.

[Quinbo]

I could rattle off various schools I've attended that the attrition rate was up there. CQB we dropped about 10% and that was for stuff like flagging the whole team with a loaded weapon etc.

Back to bootcamp... I believe the majority of drops are not because the recruit failed to perform up to standard but because of such things as refusing to train, attempting suicide, major injury etc. A recruit that abolutely can not shoot or swim even after remedial training from the best of the best does not belong at graduation formation.

We can both equate to the marksmanship world so here is a something. After 2 weeks of training a shooter goes UNQ. Do you beat up the coach or the PMI staff? I've seen it tried and the coach in question pointed at his war bag of which every square inch was covered with chevrons from Lt. Col down to PFC. All he said was all those are from expert shooters I have coached and I don't like having an UNQ any more than you.

[Quinbo]

http://www.geocities.com/nhbludog/junk/hurtfeelings.JPG

[awbrown1462]

also when I was in we had 2 other plts to send a boot if he was messed up fat plt, motivation plt we also sent a cpl of guys to motivation for a day they came back ready to be Marines I don't think the Army had anything like that

[0231Marine]

MCRD San Diego used to help the Navy recruits like that out. Back in the day, the Navy bootcamp backed up to MCRD SD and the Navy guys would jump the fence thinking they were running away except they landed in a place far worse. After spending a day or two with their new Drill Instructors, they were sent back ready to be Seamen!

Or so I'm told.

[thewookie]

We can both equate to the marksmanship world so here is a something. After 2 weeks of training a shooter goes UNQ. Do you beat up the coach or the PMI staff? I've seen it tried and the coach in question pointed at his war bag of which every square inch was covered with chevrons from Lt. Col down to PFC. All he said was all those are from expert shooters I have coached and I don't like having an UNQ any more than you.

Good point. And to your point - shooting is tough to find the root of the evil because as an instructor, I can't see what you're seeing, so I don't really know exactly where you are going wrong. I can't feel your trigger pull, nor can I see your sights or where you focus on. Sure I can look for clues and memorize shot charts that tell why a group is in a particular location, and with some experience and good training behind me I can probably decipher what to do or where to start to fix you. But what if there is no group, there's a lot of patience and guess work involved.

Coaches/PMI's earn their money with the trouble or problem shooters that's for sure, and that makes or breaks a coach, but without being able to really see or feel what the shooter feels it's tough to place blame on the coach or the instructor. Unless it's absolutely clear the original POI was not clear to the students, but that's a whole different subject.

Unlike something like CQB tactics, with techniques that are supposed to be done a certain way - with a little initiative based tactics thrown in. But, I can clearly see where a student is going wrong, the process they need to perform to make a basic entry are step by step and there is no grey area - clear the doorway, clear the immediate area, clear your corner while sweeping your sector of fire and establishing a dominate position. Black and white. If a student doesn't perform those steps, then you have an easier time with corrections and remediation. Another quick example - teaching Close Order Drill is much easier to remediate, in comparison. The first step of Present Arms is X, followed by Y, and then Z. Do it right and you pass, fail - and I (the instructor) goes back to the steps and starts the remediation there.

I know I have drifted off subject but here's the end of my drawn out point, teaching shooting in my opinion, might be one of the tougher skills there is. Not just teaching the fundamentals, but correcting, more so correcting because there's so much unknown. So placing blame isn't so easy to do.

[maverickmarine]

http://www.geocities.com/nhbludog/junk/hurtfeelings.JPG

Holy chit, that's funny!

[BartonAT]

Not sure what it supposedly is but my platoon had 24 percent drop. Avg for company was like 21. 91 and graduated with 70

[m14ed]

Not sure what it supposedly is

but my platoon
had 24 percent drop.

Avg for company was like 21. 91
and graduated with 70



WOW-
I take it you supposedly graduated from HighSchool
at least -
But you can not tell by the way you make a statement
or try ? to not fill out a profile .....

[Rickyw2017]

I went to boot camp in 1982. out of 94 we graduated 68