Second Thoughts on Gays in the Military

[thedrifter]

January 2, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Second Thoughts on Gays in the Military
By JOHN M. SHALIKASHVILI

Steilacoom, Wash.

TWO weeks ago, President Bush called for a long-term plan to increase the size of the armed forces. As our leaders consider various options for carrying out Mr. Bush’s vision, one issue likely to generate fierce debate is “don’t ask, don’t tell,” the policy that bars openly gay service members from the military. Indeed, leaders in the new Congress are planning to re-introduce a bill to repeal the policy next year.

As was the case in 1993 — the last time the American people thoroughly debated the question of whether openly gay men and lesbians should serve in the military — the issue will give rise to passionate feelings on both sides. The debate must be conducted with sensitivity, but it must also consider the evidence that has emerged over the last 14 years.

When I was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, I supported the current policy because I believed that implementing a change in the rules at that time would have been too burdensome for our troops and commanders. I still believe that to have been true. The concern among many in the military was that given the longstanding view that homosexuality was incompatible with service, letting people who were openly gay serve would lower morale, harm recruitment and undermine unit cohesion.

In the early 1990s, large numbers of military personnel were opposed to letting openly gay men and lesbians serve. President Bill Clinton, who promised to lift the ban during his campaign, was overwhelmed by the strength of the opposition, which threatened to overturn any executive action he might take. The compromise that came to be known as “don’t ask, don’t tell” was thus a useful speed bump that allowed temperatures to cool for a period of time while the culture continued to evolve.

The question before us now is whether enough time has gone by to give this policy serious reconsideration. Much evidence suggests that it has.

Last year I held a number of meetings with gay soldiers and marines, including some with combat experience in Iraq, and an openly gay senior sailor who was serving effectively as a member of a nuclear submarine crew. These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers.

This perception is supported by a new Zogby poll of more than 500 service members returning from Afghanistan and Iraq, three quarters of whom said they were comfortable interacting with gay people. And 24 foreign nations, including Israel, Britain and other allies in the fight against terrorism, let gays serve openly, with none reporting morale or recruitment problems.

I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces. Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.

But if America is ready for a military policy of nondiscrimination based on sexual orientation, the timing of the change should be carefully considered. As the 110th Congress opens for business, some of its most urgent priorities, like developing a more effective strategy in Iraq, share widespread support that spans political affiliations. Addressing such issues could help heal the divisions that cleave our country. Fighting early in this Congress to lift the ban on openly gay service members is not likely to add to that healing, and it risks alienating people whose support is needed to get this country on the right track.

By taking a measured, prudent approach to change, political and military leaders can focus on solving the nation’s most pressing problems while remaining genuinely open to the eventual and inevitable lifting of the ban. When that day comes, gay men and lesbians will no longer have to conceal who they are, and the military will no longer need to sacrifice those whose service it cannot afford to lose.

John M. Shalikashvili, a retired army general, was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1993 to 1997.

Ellie

[SuNmAN]

I really don't care if the Marine next to me was gay

just please don't hit on me, I'm a pretty good looking dude and I wouldn't like that.

otherwise I'm cool with you.

[pounder412002]

i think a gay man can shoot as well as a non gay. i say let them join and give them bullets. whos cares bout the sexual nature of the preson killing the oppossing force!.

[drumcorpssnare]

Throughout the course of my life, I have met homosexuals, none of whom would I classify as a 'warrior.' A sissy maybe. A crybaby, perhaps. But not a warrior. But, the powers that be insist they be allowed in the military. Fine.
But, when one of them wants to put something in his mouth that is long, hard, and shoots.....I hope it's the muzzle of his weapon!

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Doug Walker]

Figures an Army Dog would write this.

[SuNmAN]

Figures an Army Dog would write this.


I think an "Army Dog" who is a 4 star General with 39 years of service, a Vietnam Veteran where he earned a Bronze Star with Combat V device's words carry some weight.

[SuNmAN]

Throughout the course of my life, I have met homosexuals, none of whom would I classify as a 'warrior.' A sissy maybe. A crybaby, perhaps. But not a warrior. But, the powers that be insist they be allowed in the military. Fine.
But, when one of them wants to put something in his mouth that is long, hard, and shoots.....I hope it's the muzzle of his weapon!

drumcorpssnare:usmc:


I've met too many Marines who I wouldn't call a warrior if I was forced to.

And if a gay man wants to put a wang in his mouth, he has the freedom to do so and its really not any of our business

having said that...I still oppose gay marriage lol

[greensideout]

I really don't care if the Marine next to me was gay

just please don't hit on me, I'm a pretty good looking dude and I wouldn't like that.

otherwise I'm cool with you.


Quote: "I'm a pretty good looking dude".


We often disagree SuN and here we go again. Don't mis-understand, I'm not saying that you are butt ugly. We just disagree. :yes: :D

[DWG]

...I still oppose gay marriage lol

Does that mean you just want to play the field?:confused:

[drumcorpssnare]

Quick story- 1980 Gillette, WY I was in the Stockman's Bar, havin' a few. A couple of effeminate gay guys came in, groping each other. They ordered a drink, and the barmaid said she wouldn't serve them. So, they put some quarters in the pool table to play some 8-ball.
The bar maid asked me to get rid of them, and the other patrons concurred.
I walked over, grabbed the 8-ball and rolled in into a pocket and said,"Game's over."
One of them replied, "You can't make us leave!" So, I grabbed both by the front of their shirts, dragged them to the front door and threw them into the street.
Five minutes later a city cop walks into the bar. He comes up to me, and says a person matching my description alledgedly threw two guys out of the bar.
Now, mind you, I was dressed up in my Civil War artillery officer uniform, including 1860 Army Colt .44 , knee length boots, kepi, etc.
I said to the policeman, "Nope. Wasn't me."
He said, "Musta been somebody else dressed just like you..."
I said, "Musta been..."
He just smiled and walked away, shakin' his head.:banana:

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[thedrifter]

Retired General Changes Mind on 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'
Susan Jones
Senior Editor

(CNSNews.com) - A former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says Congress should seriously reconsider the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy that forbids homosexuals and lesbians from serving in the military if they openly admit their sexual preferences.

In an op-ed in Tuesday's New York Times, retired Gen. John Shalikashvili -- who earlier supported the policy -- wrote, "I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces."

He also says the U.S. military "has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job."

A group that wants to end the ban on openly homosexual servicemembers welcomed Shalikashvili's op-ed.

"The counsel of military leaders increasingly supports repeal of the law," said C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN).

"Congress must, as General Shalikashvili urges, consider the overwhelming evidence of the past fourteen years. If they do, the clear answer is that we must lift the ban," Osburn added.

General Shalikashvili says he changed his mind after "a number of meetings with gay soldiers and marines, including some with combat experience in Iraq, and an openly gay senior sailor who was serving effectively as a member of a nuclear submarine crew."

He said the conversations, which took place last year, showed him "just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers."

According to SLDN, the Pentagon has dismissed more than 11,000 men and women under the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" enforcement policy.

During his presidential campaign in 1992, President Bill Clinton advocated repealing the ban on homosexuals in the military. But in November 1993, Clinton signed a law reaffirming the long-standing principle that homosexuality is incompatible with military service.

The 1993 law says there is no constitutional right to serve in the armed forces; it says "success in combat" requires strong "unit cohesion" and "bonds of trust" among individual service members; and it says the presence of "persons who demonstrate a propensity of intent to engage in homosexual acts would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability."

The law notes that "the prohibition against homosexual conduct is a longstanding element of military law that continues to be necessary in the unique circumstances of military service."

On the other side of the argument, a group that supports the "gay ban" -- the Center for Military Readiness -- has long warned that lifting the ban would force the military to jettison traditional values in favor of a homosexual, "politically correct" agenda.

Allowing openly homosexual soldiers to serve in the military will depress, not boost, recruiting numbers, the Center for Military Readiness has argued.

Ellie

[thedrifter]

January 02, 2007 <br />
Shalikashvili calls for rethinking ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ <br />
<br />
By Gordon Lubold <br />
Staff writer <br />
<br />
The man who served as the nation’s senior military officer when the “don’t ask, don’t...

[The1stSgt]

We're not talking about just being in combat with homosexuals, were taking about open homosexuality 24/7, 365, everywhere, every place. In the barracks, at the clubs, MWR, PX, etc., etc.

Can you picture two drunk homosexual Marines kissing on the dance floor of the enlisted or officers club. How about a homosexual over nighters in the BEQ room? Your family comes to visit you at your base and here are two homosexual Marines walking arm in arm through the PX. How about three homosexual Marines having a love triangle and get into a fight that ends up at Office Hours. What tha f**k !!!!

That is not the image I want for the Marine Corps. It greatly lowers my morale just thinking about it.

The United States is steadily losing it's tolerant politically correct mind.

Just entertaining the idea that the open homosexual lifestyle is compatible with the traditional military lifestyle is evidence of distorted thinking.

[SuNmAN]

:angel:
Quote: "I'm a pretty good looking dude".


We often disagree SuN and here we go again. Don't mis-understand, I'm not saying that you are butt ugly. We just disagree. :yes: :D


lol I know I'm no Brad Pitt

but I'd give my face an 8 out of 10 and my body a 9 out of 10 lol

[pounder412002]

i never thought of it in that manner .24/7 gay marines is a downer id say as well .i do not think that seeing them in the px and e-club or officers club and being openly gay dancing in the clubs is a good picture for our corps.i think i had a bad idea thanx for the eye opener brothers semper fi

[SuNmAN]

We're not talking about just being in combat with homosexuals, were taking about open homosexuality 24/7, 365, everywhere, every place. In the barracks, at the clubs, MWR, PX, etc., etc.

Can you picture two drunk homosexual Marines kissing on the dance floor of the enlisted or officers club. How about a homosexual over nighters in the BEQ room? Your family comes to visit you at your base and here are two homosexual Marines walking arm in arm through the PX. How about three homosexual Marines having a love triangle and get into a fight that ends up at Office Hours. What tha f**k !!!!

That is not the image I want for the Marine Corps. It greatly lowers my morale just thinking about it.

The United States is steadily losing it's tolerant politically correct mind.

Just entertaining the idea that the open homosexual lifestyle is compatible with the traditional military lifestyle is evidence of distorted thinking.

yeah never thought of it that way

that would lower my morale too lol

[thedrifter]

Gays in the military?
Posted By Uncle Jimbo

First of all they are already there, we just play a game of no cabaret in the barracks currently.

I don't know what prompted Gen. Shalikashvili to come out (ha) with his statement regarding gay people serving in the military, but I remain in agreement with his thoughts. Readers here are aware of this and I believe we had one of the most interesting and substantive arguments in the comments I can recall. Opinions ranged from a solid H**l no to why wouldn't we? All in all I was impressed by the discourse and while it led me to re-evaluate my position, it has not significantly altered it.

The one point of contention is whether the presence of openly gay service members would undermine morale and discipline. If this is the case then we have a much more hostile and bigoted population than I believe we do. I truly believe that when confronted with gayness, most Americans have about as much interest in it as in the sex habits of their parents. It may draw an "Ew", but past that we all have better things to worry about. My statement in the past still reflects my feelings.

"If I am lying by the road bleeding, I don't care if the medic coming to save me is gay. I just hope he is one of those buff gay guys who are always in the gym so he can throw me over his shoulder and get me out of there."

I will say that given the current strain on the military after 5 years of wartime operations, and the likelihood of a surge in Iraq, now is probably not the best time to implement a full scale policy change. But if I read about one more Arabic linguist bounced for off duty behavior that hurt no one, I'll be ****ed. We don't have the luxury of ignoring people with skills we need. I think it would be wise for the Pentagon to just stop investigating cases of gayness and not process anyone else out if their behavior harms no one.

Ellie

[rktect3j]

Gays do not need acceptance, they need help. Stop ignoring their pain with tolerance and address the problem. We fix so many other mental problems but try to gloss this one over. Stop the insanity.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I think an "Army Dog" who is a 4 star General with 39 years of service, a Vietnam Veteran where he earned a Bronze Star with Combat V device's words carry some weight.

Ahhh, but....he's the guy that also insisted the Army change it's headgear to the 'beret'.


I think we have our answer.:scared:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

BTW, I have several issues with this.

1. If he felt so strongly about this, why didn't he put his career on the line at the time, and either fight for it, or resign? What has changed so that he would put himself out there for this?

2. He's a Clinton appointee, which pretty much says it all.

3. I will support gays in the military, openly, as soon as the military starts letting me share a room with female Marines. With communal showers. It's quite logical, really. If gays claim "its not about sex", then fine. It's not about sex for me, either. I just wanna look. It's just..that....simple.

Everything else being said is just hypocritical until that happens, and you won't convince me otherwise.

[drumcorpssnare]

I'll go along with the quote from the famous "TRIX" rabbit. "Silly faggot! Dicks are for chicks!":banana:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Then again, I AM a lesbian trapped in a man's body...does that count for something?

LOL

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin:SONNY~BOY,HAVE YOU BEEN SPENDING TOO MUCH TIME;ON THE (19TH) HOLE~WITH YOU'R KISSING BOY'S?TRYING TO MAKE A HOLE IN ONE???:D (LMFAO) SEMPER-NO-NO!!!

[hoytarcher45]

Maybe we could have segregated units within the Corps for all the fags, just like the Tuskegee Airman back in WWII. Any suggestions for nicknames of these units? Ill get you started...."The AIDS Brigade."

[DWG]

How insensitive; you bi*ch!!

[drumcorpssnare]

I can see it now....pugil stick training at Parris Is. Two recruits- one a potential warrior; the other...not. The aggressive recruit throws a horizontal butt-stroke, striking the 'other' recruit on the left of his helmet. The 'other' recruit throws down his pugil stick and gloves, exclaiming, "Ssstoop it!" He takes off his helmet, rests his hand on his hip, and says, "I'll scratch your eyes out!"
The 'warrior' recruit stands there for a second, blinks...and makes a jab to the face of his opponent.
The 'other' recruit takes the full force of the jab, in the face. He falls to the ground, curls up in the fetal position, and begins to cry.

Yup. That's the kind of person I want coverin' MY 6!

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[FistFu68]

:marine: THE 4TH.BN.MCRD!~SAN~DEIGO! Q/CO.-MOTTO-(QUEER FOR YOU'R GEAR) :D HOLLYWEIRD~(LMFAO)

[DWG]

I can see it now....pugil stick training at Parris Is. Two recruits- one a potential warrior; the other...not. The aggressive recruit throws a horizontal butt-stroke, striking the 'other' recruit on the left of his helmet. The 'other' recruit throws down his pugil stick and gloves, exclaiming, "Ssstoop it!" He takes off his helmet, rests his hand on his hip, and says, "I'll scratch your eyes out!"
The 'warrior' recruit stands there for a second, blinks...and makes a jab to the face of his opponent.
The 'other' recruit takes the full force of the jab, in the face. He falls to the ground, curls up in the fetal position, and begins to cry.

Yup. That's the kind of person I want coverin' MY 6!

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

They"ll be more than HAPPY to cover your six.;) Be careful what you wish for!:banana:

[drumcorpssnare]

Pink cammy's w/shoulder patch reading, "We'll knock your dick stiff!":banana:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[hoytarcher45]

E-3 will be a Prance Corporal.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

The new artillery motto "Play with our BIG guns"

[DWG]

I think we're enjoying this a little too much-SuNmaN gonna chastise us!:(

[Sgt Leprechaun]

OOoooooooohhhh....STHOP IT! STHOP TEASING ME EWE BEAST!

[drumcorpssnare]

HQMC Bulletin- "Effective immediately, purses (carry-all, govt.issue,P-1) one ea., will be distributed to all male Marines, Officer and Enlisted, who are of the 'other' sexual persuasion. This shall be used to carry lipstick, Vaseline, condoms (Unused=new; Used=bag lunch) and other such faggoty nonsense.
These purses do not need to be carried in the left hand, in a military manner.
They may, at the discretion of the carrier, be sashayed around like a limp-wristed cabaret dancer. That is all.

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[FistFu68]

:marine: Q-CO.'S-(CLOSE COMBAT COARSE)!!!CAN YOU FLIP HIM & DICK HIM? BEFORE HE THROW'S YOU,& BLOW'S YOU???:sick:

[drumcorpssnare]

Reminds me of being 'in a line' or in the 'cattle cars' in boot camp, and the Drill Instructors shouting, "Tighten it up! A$$-hole to bellybutton!...Make 'em smile, private!"
And while the 'real' recruits are on the confidence course, the 'other' recruits will be mastering the 'reach around' course!:banana:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[ggyoung]

SgtLep========The ewe you are talking about really is not that bad. The old joke in the west is--doing a ewe is not bad. the only thing is when you are done you have go around and kiss the ewe's snooty nose. Have fun. Do you think they will issue a ewe to every gay trooper? Also will they issue a large snootrag to everyone?

[ggyoung]

During WW2 in Europe 2 GI's walking down the road. They see a old ewe tangled up in wire. The 1st one says I wish that was Gail, the 2ed one says I wish that was Linda and the 3ed one says I wish it was night time.

[SSGT DILL]

:flag: FIRST OF ALL I DON'T THINK THAT THIS WOULD BE A GOOD IMAGE FOR THE MARINE CORPS. THE WORLD KNOWS US AS DEVIL DOGS AND LEATHERNECKS, BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE FOUGHT AND DIED. WHAT DO YOU THINK OUR MARINES BACK IN THOSE DAYS WOULD THINK ABOUT STANDING A$$HOLE TO BELLYBUTTON WITH A HOMOSEXUAL. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I'M SURE THAT SOME OF THEM COULD BE JUST AS HARD-CHARGING(HA) AS THE REST OF US, BUT SO CAN THOSE WHO JUST CAN'T PASS THE ASVAB, BUT WE DON'T LOWER OUR STANDARDS FOR THEM. HOW FAR DO WE HAVE TO LOWER OUR STANDARDS TO PLEASE THE POLITIANS? I GUESS THE NEXT STEP WOULD BE TO COMBINE 4TH BN. WITH THE OTHERS AT PARRIS ISLAND. THATS WHY WE ARE THE FEW, THE PROUD. I FOR ONE , WOULD LIKE TO KEEP IT THAT WAY. I GUESS FOR MARINES IN THE FIELD THE TERM A$$ PACK ON YOUR DUCE GEAR WOULD TAKE ON A WHOLE NEW MEANING.

[SSGT DILL]

:flag: FIRST OF ALL I DON'T THINK THAT THIS WOULD BE A GOOD IMAGE FOR THE MARINE CORPS. THE WORLD KNOWS US AS DEVIL DOGS AND LEATHERNECKS, BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE FOUGHT AND DIED. WHAT DO YOU THINK OUR MARINES BACK IN THOSE DAYS WOULD THINK ABOUT STANDING A$$HOLE TO BELLYBUTTON WITH A HOMOSEXUAL. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I'M SURE THAT SOME OF THEM COULD BE JUST AS HARD-CHARGING(HA) AS THE REST OF US, BUT SO CAN THOSE WHO JUST CAN'T PASS THE ASVAB, BUT WE DON'T LOWER OUR STANDARDS FOR THEM. HOW FAR DO WE HAVE TO LOWER OUR STANDARDS TO PLEASE THE POLITIANS? I GUESS THE NEXT STEP WOULD BE TO COMBINE 4TH BN. WITH THE OTHERS AT PARRIS ISLAND. THATS WHY WE ARE THE FEW, THE PROUD. I FOR ONE , WOULD LIKE TO KEEP IT THAT WAY. I GUESS FOR MARINES IN THE FIELD THE TERM A$$ PACK ON YOUR DUCE GEAR WOULD TAKE ON A WHOLE NEW MEANING.

[Hobson]

http://www.costumenetwork.com/albums/album49/GaysInMilitary.jpg

[pounder412002]

ok guys i got the idea i retracted mt statement on this before. i dont think it would look good either .so next topic...... thank you

[thedrifter]

http://www.costumenetwork.com/albums/album49/GaysInMilitary.jpg

That's so wrong..:D

Ellie

[DWG]

The Village People go to war! ewwwww!

[drumcorpssnare]

Hey, that 'squid' on the right looks like Kerry!:D
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[DWG]

Hey, that 'squid' on the right looks like Kerry!:D
drumcorpssnare:usmc:
Not enough ribbons!

[ErikHeiker]

Those of us in Afghanistan and Iraq have the pleasure of using communal sinks, showers and toilets. I really don't like the idea of sexual deviants trying to peak at my gear or anyone else's. Homosexuals are among the most desease ridden in the US. And their average lifespan is mid-forties. Hardly what we need in our ranks. Our military members have enough to worry about in a firefight. They don't need to wonder if the bloodied up guy they're pulling out of the line of fire is an AIDS infested fudgepacker. Going out in harm's way is for real men. Not for those who'd rather engage in deviant and unhealthy sexual behavior.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

At least they aren't wearing USMC uniforms...thank god for small favors.

[OLE SARG]

I have to whole-heartedly agree with the Top on this topic. Open gayness makes me sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Yeah, I'd agree with that as well. Unless, of course, it's two hot blonde chicks with...well, never mind...

[thedrifter]

Who's &quot;lying&quot;? &quot;Gunny&quot; Bob distorted poll in attacking retired Joint Chiefs chairman's stance on gays in military <br />
<br />
Summary: Newsradio 850 KOA host &quot;Gunny&quot; Bob Newman distorted the results of a poll...

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Good ole "Inhuman Newman".

Those who had SERE training in the 1980's will recall the nickname is well deserved.

He calls 'em like he sees em.

He also was a Marine Corps Times editorial columnist using the name "Dan McGrew".

One helluva fine Marine SNCO!!!