Fallen Heros

[thedrifter]

This was sent to me by USMC-FO.

He wanted to share this with all

Fallen Marines

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1zwmP81WjY

RIP
Ellie

[Ladderwell]

After seeing the Fallen Marines video, I side with Murtha. No more dead beacause of this administrations's incompetencies. It has resulted in the dead of too many, then, today and tomorrow.

As a society we have to get a handle on this, and begin a turnaround. Right now we are careering out of control into the Pit. We must look at the big picture, and get out of our own way, fighting the slide, changing ourselves to preserving our precious troops' lives, stop wasting our treasure, and fight terrorism at its roots.

The only deaths in that war are of ideas. As former Marines, do we have the honor, courage and commitment to fight that war? What can we do to shorten the list of Fallen Marines? Our people are too precious to have their patriotism misappropriated, misused, and wasted for an ignorant administration and populace.
*
Ladderwell
SF :={

[jinelson]

After viewing the FBI surviellance tape of John Mecca Murtha influence peddling during the abscam sting 26 years ago. He certainly does not have honor, courage or commitment to anyone but himself. The only one misappropriating patriotism is the traitor Mecca Murtha. And to think that he thought he was taking bribes from a middle eastern shiekdom then, makes me positive of who he is really representing now. So you side with him and the enemy he protects and aids, I will side with the administration that opposes the enemy.

That being said the video was very sad but made me proud to be a Marine.

[003XXMarineDAD]

The only deaths in that war are of ideas. As former Marines, do we have the honor, courage and commitment to fight that war? What can we do to shorten the list of Fallen Marines? Our people are too precious to have their patriotism misappropriated, misused, and wasted for an ignorant administration and populace.
*


:mad:
Ladder with respsect I spent the last week with Marines that had just returned from Iraq and none that I spoke to had any type of your twisted veiw.
To which I would bet just pi$$es you off.
I spoke to Marines from 1/7 Baker Co. and 3rd LAR which had just came home. Let me tell you some thing Ladderwell those Marines have seen it all and said they would go back to finish the job.
You in your infinte wisdom will have none of that but would have them come home again with their tail hanging and then you can have your victory of cut & run.
These Marines deserve more then what you and the defeatocrats are willing to give them, which one is the respect you demand others give you.
Yes war is hell and many know this and have died in it.
The Marines I talked to are willing to pay the price and do have fear. The fear is that the one's that want to cut and run will win the day that fear is a large one. They all told me it is possible to win the war , they all said the progress they are making is good but for every three steps forward the media and the defeatocrats they take two back. This does get them down and this Pi$$es me and others off to no end.
I have yet hear a plan that you have spoke of so much have any thing in it about winning this war. That could be because your plan does not want to win.
All wars have problems and this one is no different then the others. The thing I do see is how the far left and the socialist world can not stand a thought of the USA saying and doing the thing they can not stand "which is winning this war and helping other countries rid themselves of Islamofacists and having control over their lives."
So with Respect Ladderwell I will stand with the Marines I met this last week instead of you.
:thumbup: :D

[CHOPPER7199]

Ooorah Dale, Well Said

[Ladderwell]

Approaching 3000.

We elected an administration that threw us under a bus. Now we need one that knows how to get us out from under it.

Perhaps it will take a few more years of carnage, and a few ten thousands of dead soldiers to wake up the American majority to the horror of the Pillar of Evil in the Republican led government. We can't get out of Iraq now if we wanted to.

We are weakened by the Republicans as no other leaders have in the history of America. We do not have enough troops to push the North Koreans back across the DMZ. Plenty of death and destruction there. Ready to send more troops?

Iran is flipping us the bird. Are we ready to send troops there too? What will that cost

Are we ready to clamp down on a Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan, now that we have invaded an Arab country without cause and are losing the support of the regular Afghanies? Are we ready to send more troops there?

Are we ready to confront China if they go after the oil fields south of Japan? What if they decide to forcefully take over Taiwan? Are we ready to turn over our country to our real enemies (psssst. Iraq wasn't one of them)?

After we have spent all our money, mortgaged our children's future, turned our troops into hamburger because the "adults" of this country allowed our strength, treasure, soldiers, reputation, to be frittered away because of the profound weakening of the US permitted by the Republican Administration, and the eventual collapse of America itself, as it falls before our strengthened and emboldened enemies, will the people who voted in the Republicans (again and again) then say "Hmm. Maybe the "cut&runners" weren't so wrong after all." By then it will be too late. We need to act now.

Vote anything but Republican. Stop the filled bodybags coming home for no good reason. Solve the problem. Learn to be proud of America again.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis

[greensideout]

Approaching 3000.

We elected an administration that threw us under a bus. Now we need one that knows how to get us out from under it.

Perhaps it will take a few more years of carnage, and a few ten thousands of dead soldiers to wake up the American majority to the horror of the Pillar of Evil in the Republican led government. We can't get out of Iraq now if we wanted to.

We are weakened by the Republicans as no other leaders have in the history of America. We do not have enough troops to push the North Koreans back across the DMZ. Plenty of death and destruction there. Ready to send more troops?

Iran is flipping us the bird. Are we ready to send troops there too? What will that cost

Are we ready to clamp down on a Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan, now that we have invaded an Arab country without cause and are losing the support of the regular Afghanies? Are we ready to send more troops there?

Are we ready to confront China if they go after the oil fields south of Japan? What if they decide to forcefully take over Taiwan? Are we ready to turn over our country to our real enemies (psssst. Iraq wasn't one of them)?

After we have spent all our money, mortgaged our children's future, turned our troops into hamburger because the "adults" of this country allowed our strength, treasure, soldiers, reputation, to be frittered away because of the profound weakening of the US permitted by the Republican Administration, and the eventual collapse of America itself, as it falls before our strengthened and emboldened enemies, will the people who voted in the Republicans (again and again) then say "Hmm. Maybe the "cut&runners" weren't so wrong after all." By then it will be too late. We need to act now.

Vote anything but Republican. Stop the filled bodybags coming home for no good reason. Solve the problem. Learn to be proud of America again.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis


America has been lead by just two families for the last 18 years. If Bill's wife makes the bid, is elected and serves two terms that would be 28 years of the Bushs and Clintons. Think about it---:thumbdown

[drumcorpssnare]

Ladderwell- You mention the total KIA = 3000. This is for what...3 yrs.?

Now, think back to the casualty rate for the 3 DAYS at Tarawa. The first 3 DAYS of Saipan. The first 3 DAYS of Iwo Jima. The first 3 DAYS of Okinawa.
The 3 DAYS at Chosin. The first 3 DAYS of Khe Sahn.

Get the picture? We're talkin' 18 days worth of Marine Corps casualties. You're freakin' out over three YEARS worth of TOTAL American casualties!
Hey, any American who is killed in the line of duty is a sad thing to think about. But, the current rate is a tiny drop in a very huge bucket.

And don't forget...these fine men are ALL volunteers!

The media and the politicians need to let the military professionals do what they do best....KILL THE BAD GUYS!!!:usmc:

[003XXMarineDAD]

Vote anything but Republican. Stop the filled bodybags coming home for no good reason. Solve the problem.

Ladderwell
Respectfully you are the problem, you have not learned the lessons of appeasement and never will.
I seem to get the impression the only way you think, the bad guy has the gun and we can disarm him just by talking him to death.
We had better hope he does not shoot before he dies from the line of kumbya you sing to him.
It is a pleasure to keep reading your stuff it just makes my day start with a laugh.

:D

[artymarine]

03dad, It doesn't start my day with a laugh. I pretty much know exactly what kind of Marine this guy was. Some young hardcharger probably ****ed in his helmet. <br />
<br />
Still lean, Still mean, all Marine

[Ladderwell]

America has been lead by just two families for the last 18 years. If Bill's wife makes the bid, is elected and serves two terms that would be 28 years of the Bushs and Clintons. Think about it---:thumbdown

GSO,

Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils. Be it Clinton or anyone else, as long as it isn't Republican, our country can begin the beginning of the needed turnaround.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Sf

[Ladderwell]

Ladderwell- You mention the total KIA = 3000. This is for what...3 yrs.?

Now, think back to the casualty rate for the 3 DAYS at Tarawa. The first 3 DAYS of Saipan. The first 3 DAYS of Iwo Jima. The first 3 DAYS of Okinawa.
The 3 DAYS at Chosin. The first 3 DAYS of Khe Sahn.

Get the picture? We're talkin' 18 days worth of Marine Corps casualties. You're freakin' out over three YEARS worth of TOTAL American casualties!
Hey, any American who is killed in the line of duty is a sad thing to think about. But, the current rate is a tiny drop in a very huge bucket.

And don't forget...these fine men are ALL volunteers!

The media and the politicians need to let the military professionals do what they do best....KILL THE BAD GUYS!!!:usmc:

Drumcorpssnare,

The nearly 3000 dead troops in Iraq died on a fool's errand. We didn't have to go into Iraq. We were lied to and duped into going into Iraq. We've been sold a bill of good by liars, usurpers, greedy, power-hungry, selfish, self-serving so-called leaders who have put our troops and country into harm's way like at no other time in our history.

Your quote "Kill the bad guys." masks the reality that our Republican leadership has manufactured millions of bad guys as a direct result of invading an Islamic nation for no good or valid reason. Read "No WMDs."

As much as Sadaam was a bad guy, he was never responsible for the death of one (1) American troop. Not one (1). As a result of our invasion folly, between 355,000 and 955,000 Iraqis are now dead, and nearly 3000 of our nation's finest.

We've been duped.

Think about it.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

How does Murtha's track record (or for that matter, John Kerrys) as a military man compare to Bush's, Rumsfield's or Cheney's? <br />
<br />
Here's his: <br />
<br />
Congressman Murtha is ranking member and former...

[Ladderwell]

Ladderwell
Respectfully you are the problem, you have not learned the lessons of appeasement and never will.
I seem to get the impression the only way you think, the bad guy has the gun and we can disarm him just by talking him to death.
We had better hope he does not shoot before he dies from the line of kumbya you sing to him.
It is a pleasure to keep reading your stuff it just makes my day start with a laugh.

:D

Whoa Nellie,

Point by point:

1. Appeasement. I have studied Chamberlain's actions prior to WWII. You cannot simplisticly (sic) compare apples to oranges. WWII was communism vs. fascism, with the Jewish element of Hitler's maniacism heavily factored in. It was a direct outgrowth of unfinished arguements of WWI, with roots going back into the 19th century. Appeasement or not, war was inevitable because of Fascist leadership.

2. "Bad guy with a gun..." The Bush gang, with its lies and ineptness, plus pulling the wool over the eyes of many of our citizens, has created millions of bad guys with guns, and they are killing our troops. It will take centuries to get Muslims across the world back on the other side of radicalism. They were not there until the Republican administration went in and kicked over the kettle, and inflamed the Islamic world.
By the way, killing a man with a gun is not always the best answer. Sure it is simple, but not smart. With Islamic hate for the West being nurtured in the the home, we can either kill all Muslims, or get to the root of the problem by educating their young. We need to stop giving the media images of Muslims being invaded or killed by the West, who take the pictures we produce and fan the flames ignited by our Barabbas president, igniting flames across the minds of millions of muslims across the world.
When we see the next body bag come off the plane at Dover, will that fallen troop have been killed by a radical muslim who wasn't radical until we foolishly invaded Iraq? The odds of that being the case grow every day.
3. Don't give me this "Kumbiya" garbage. Even former Secretary of State Baker, who was part of the Bannana Republic coup that got Bush into power in the first place, is having second thoughts, and is now heading a project to help get the crap out of our country's eyes and ears, and run like heck from the "stay the course" simplicity of our current "leaders."
4. "Laughing when you read my stuff?" It scares the heck out of me that my country and its citizens are being led like mindless sheep to the slaughterhouse. It's not funny. It's hysterical.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[jinelson]

The party of John Mecca Murtha and John Hanoi Kerry dont even know what American soldiers look like! All they want to do is rant about Bush and the current administration like you do! And Im sure that Murtha awarded himself his own medals just like Kerry did! Show me a plan instead of a endless rant, you do know what a plan is dont you, its kinda like a solution!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/149504.jpg

I know they changed it on the site because they got too many emails asking them what kinda of idiots work there! But Little Green Footballs has the photo of what the Democrats thought was an American soldiers!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/20061007DemocratPhotoshop02.jpg


Talk about incompetence just look to the left and find the Democratic Party!

[Ladderwell]

artymarine, <br />
When I hit PI, the drill instructors did not have me or anyone else ship their brains back home with the rest of our civilian gear. They expected us to use them. <br />
As far as...

[Ladderwell]

The party of John Mecca Murtha and John Hanoi Kerry dont even know what American soldiers look like! All they want to do is rant about Bush and the current administration like you do! And Im sure that Murtha awarded himself his own medals just like Kerry did! Show me a plan instead of a endless rant, you do know what a plan is dont you, its kinda like a solution!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/149504.jpg

I know they changed it on the site because they got too many emails asking them what kinda of idiots work there! But Little Green Footballs has the photo of what the Democrats thought was an American soldiers!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/20061007DemocratPhotoshop02.jpg


Talk about incompetence just look to the left and find the Democratic Party!

jnielson,

Criticize Kerry and Murtha? tsk tsk.

How much blood did the Barabbas gang shed? (Bush, Cheney & Rumsfield). Between Murtha & Kerry they have at least 1 Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars (w/Combat V), and 4 or 5 Purple Hearts.

Small-minded jealous people who attack them are like vandals ruining the good in a society. I do not side with the vandals.

They have earned the right to have a thoughtful opinion, and the integrity to change their minds when new data comes available. They have in interest in protecting this country and its troops, not waste them with moronic folly that swears to "stay the course. (to Armageddon?)"

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Sf

[greensideout]

GSO,

Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils. Be it Clinton or anyone else, as long as it isn't Republican, our country can begin the beginning of the needed turnaround.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Sf


Quote, "Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils".

You present your candidate as a choice of "evil".

"Bill's wife" would be just exactly that!

Well done!

[jinelson]

Would this be Bill's Wife?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/wedhillyc8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/adolfhillary.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/134995.jpg

[Ladderwell]

Quote, "Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils".

You present your candidate as a choice of "evil".

"Bill's wife" would be just exactly that!

Well done!

I do not understand how Hillary Clinton could be considered evil. She put up with villification by the Republican administration when she worked on healthcare reform. She was able to weather an unfaithful husband, and the Republican perverts who wasted valuable time and resources focusing an infidelity and stains on a dress instead of taking care of our country.

Hillary comes from the perspective of the Left, the care of the less fortunate, feeding the hungry, fairness in our society, and peace. She and her husband were pretty successful with that until the Right whipped up a frenzy based on their purient interests, and the "holier than thou" religious fascists who zealously supported him, and not "rendering to Ceaser what is Ceaser's and to God's what is God's." Religion does not belong in government, just look at Iran.

But I digress, Hillary has been tempered like steel by surviving the heat and hammering she's taken from her husband and the Republicans. Voting for her over the Republicans is an easy choice. One offers hope, while the other "stays the course" to more death, and in every increasing numbers.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Sf

[greensideout]

I do not understand how Hillary Clinton could be considered evil. She put up with villification by the Republican administration when she worked on healthcare reform. She was able to weather an unfaithful husband, and the Republican perverts who wasted valuable time and resources focusing an infidelity and stains on a dress instead of taking care of our country.

Hillary comes from the perspective of the Left, the care of the less fortunate, feeding the hungry, fairness in our society, and peace. She and her husband were pretty successful with that until the Right whipped up a frenzy based on their purient interests, and the "holier than thou" religious fascists who zealously supported him, and not "rendering to Ceaser what is Ceaser's and to God's what is God's." Religion does not belong in government, just look at Iran.

But I digress, Hillary has been tempered like steel by surviving the heat and hammering she's taken from her husband and the Republicans. Voting for her over the Republicans is an easy choice. One offers hope, while the other "stays the course" to more death, and in every increasing numbers.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Sf


Check their record in the state of Arkansas.

Take a look at the schools there under their guidance---near last in the nation.

She appears to be qualified to run a Hitler youth camp at best.

[jinelson]

Ladderwell we keep asking you to provide your leftest alternative plan or solution to the war on terrorism. Waiting for your answer is like waiting for your hero Kerry's Form 180 to be provided!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/120025.jpg

[WalkingMan]

But I digress


You sure do.

I remember the day you signed on, and didn't even know how to do a post without screwing up the back-quote... I was the fellow who posted an explanation for you, on my website.:)

You've been digressing ever since... the site is now littered with your long-winded, gabby posts.

Don't you have a job, or a hobby or something?

I'll tell you... I get real suspicious of people who blow too much gas.

Maybe if you weren't so ABSOLUTELY SURE (in 10,000 words or more) that your point of view was always the right one, you would be able to just let a little silence prevail, and do some reading of other people's posts without the presumption that they were all just a bunch of stupids, and you, the only one with a brain between his ears, you might notice that
1) some of the stuff you post is closer to propoganda than fact, and
2) some of the stuff the people you disagree with post, has been arrived at through intelligent, thoughtful consideration.

Try this... just for 72 hours...

Read, and don't reply.

Read, and when you brain starts jumping in with 'yeah, but', and you are already formulating a counter-reply to the post before you have finished reading it... tell your brain to SHUT UP and read the post through... several times... paying attention only to what the other person has written, and not the wheels spinning frantically in you own brain, wanting to reply.

Then... use Google to check the other fellow's facts.

Then... use Google to chech YOUR facts.

Then cogitate for a few days on the matter, and if you still feel you have a good point, post it... but try not to make it sound like a Pronouncement from Mount Olympus... or should I say, Mount O'Pompous.

[Ladderwell]

You sure do.

I remember the day you signed on, and didn't even know how to do a post without screwing up the back-quote... I was the fellow who posted an explanation for you, on my website.:)

You've been digressing ever since... the site is now littered with your long-winded, gabby posts.

Don't you have a job, or a hobby or something?

I'll tell you... I get real suspicious of people who blow too much gas.

Maybe if you weren't so ABSOLUTELY SURE (in 10,000 words or more) that your point of view was always the right one, you would be able to just let a little silence prevail, and do some reading of other people's posts without the presumption that they were all just a bunch of stupids, and you, the only one with a brain between his ears, you might notice that
1) some of the stuff you post is closer to propoganda than fact, and
2) some of the stuff the people you disagree with post, has been arrived at through intelligent, thoughtful consideration.

Try this... just for 72 hours...

Read, and don't reply.

Read, and when you brain starts jumping in with 'yeah, but', and you are already formulating a counter-reply to the post before you have finished reading it... tell your brain to SHUT UP and read the post through... several times... paying attention only to what the other person has written, and not the wheels spinning frantically in you own brain, wanting to reply.

Then... use Google to check the other fellow's facts.

Then... use Google to chech YOUR facts.

Then cogitate for a few days on the matter, and if you still feel you have a good point, post it... but try not to make it sound like a Pronouncement from Mount Olympus... or should I say, Mount O'Pompous.

Walkingman,

Thanks for the name-calling. "Do not point out the splinters in another's eye and ignore to piece of lumber sticking out of your own."

How can nearly 3000 KIAs be what you call "propaganda?" None of them had to be killed to follow Bush's folly. None of them. I look at my 10-month old grandson, and know that he will be called someday to fight battles that need not have been fought without Bush and his supporters. I'm not happy. I've already had one cousin earn a Purple Heart in Baghdad, another friend in a hospital for the criminally insane for being unable to "turn it off" after coming back from a war zone. I have 2 other friends there now, both doing tough duty, and now, because we have been foolishly weakened by squandering our fighting resources, we are at a disadvangage when the North Koreans cross the line again, when my nephew and his wife (3rd MAW) will more than likely be thrown into that maw to fight some very bad people.

The Bush administration snuck John Bolton into the UN as our UN Ambassador. His belligerence makes him more of a proponent for war than not.

Walkingman, the issues are complex, and cannot be expressed in simplistic terms. They can only be boiled down so much. You and I can turn on each other, or we can face our common enemy, and try to do something to stop the carnage. I've got skin in the game. I do not know if you do, but I'll be damned if I'm going to toe the fascist line and needlessly send my kith and kin off to fight and perhaps die or get fubar'd without my acting like a Marine and a good citizen. It is my responsibility.
*
Ladderwell

[greensideout]

my acting like a Marine and a good citizen.
*
Ladderwell


Hummmm, brainwashed by the anti-war folks? No one on this site hates war more then I!!!!! However, war has been brought to us and we damn well have to fight it! The way it is Marine, get used to it or get ready to die for your brand of peace.

[003XXMarineDAD]

We need to stop giving the media images of Muslims being invaded or killed by the West, who take the pictures we produce and fan the flames ignited by our Barabbas president, igniting flames across the minds of millions of muslims across the world.


:mad:
Respectfully Ladderwell you will only see the bad news from Iraq.
It is very unfortunate that you never see the schools and medical post the Marines have opened up in the Anbar area. This would never fit the news that you so love. It will also never show the 1,600 new Iraqi police my son help train and get in place during his tour over there in the last seven months.
These things matter none to the press that has a agenda to only report the bad and down play any progess we have made.
I wonder if your free press is so free when they can never report the good that goes on.
It has been started and allowed by the DOD to have the one's that have just returned from Iraq to speak in public forums about the things they have done and helped do . I 'am proud to have a son that is doing this he has done 3 so far and is set up to do more. He pulls no punches and tells it like it is and holds back nothing. But alas ladderwell he still thinks and says what they are doing is worth it. Damn shame you could never hear this .... it just might upset your utopia that you have.
I never could in my heart disparage our troops like the left has and will continue to do. The hate the left has for America does show thru the reporting if one looks long enough, but one does need to take off the red glasses to do it. but as long as the Pravda press has dupes like the left it will always have the hearts and minds of their comrades.
So respectfully ladderwell Skoal to the left and Pravda press you so love.

:p

[WalkingMan]

Thanks for the name-calling. "Do not point out the splinters in another's eye and ignore to piece of lumber sticking out of your own."


You're welcome.

You are so wrapped up in your own 'rightness', and your own bull****, that you failed to notice that you went ahead, and true to form, replied precisely according to your standard modus operandi... sans cogotation.



How can nearly 3000 KIAs be what you call "propaganda?" None of them had to be killed to follow Bush's folly. None of them.

If you had thought prior to posting, you might have had time to consider the reality that when the USA did nothing, it suffered over 3,000 mostly civilian KIA's in a single morning, on September 11, 2001, as opposed to suffering roughly the same number of military casualties over a 5 year span, and who gave better than they got, while bringing the war back home, to Islam.

If you had actually read, prior to posting, at sites like memri.org, you might have considered the reality that Islam, and not just a few Muslim crazies, are conducting a global Jihad, and that the intent of Islam, and by proxy, all Muslims, is the conversion, enslavement (dhimmitude) and eventual extermination of all human beings on the planet.

If you had practiced cogito prior to posting, you might have considered the reality that before Bush, a Republican, made his mistakes in attempting to deal with this global Jihad, a Democrat, Clinton, made his mistakes, attempting to deal with this global Jihad, and in all likelihood, whoever becomes president next... regardless of name or party affiliation... will also make mistakes, because, making mistakes in war is part and parcel of the process of war... Islam is making some rather huge mistakes as well.

Both sides in every conflict that have ever been fought has made mistakes. The side that eventually wins, is the side that makes the fewest mistakes, and that has the greatest will to win.

I will not waste my time replying to any of your future posts, until such a time, as you lose the 'absolute rightness' with which you cling to your beliefs, begin actually doing some real homework, what you are talking about, and begin thinking prior to posting, as opposed to the 'answering by reflex' strategy that you are currently employing, because you believe that you already have all the facts, and don't need any additional information.

Hint: The map is not the territiory.

[WalkingMan]

Respectfully Ladderwell you will only see the bad news from Iraq.
:p

For anyone who might be interested in news from Iraq that is not
sanitized and biased by professional news media:

http://coconutcommando.blogspot.com/

[bootlace15]

sounds like ladderwell is staying the course . Deaf,Dumb and Blind!!!!!!!!!!What the Fux........

Hey Ladderwell,looks like the the job that the Marines are doing is giving you a right to blow gas,Hilary to vote for the Patriot act,John Kerry to throw his ribbons,Teddy to have another bottle full,Palosie to paint her nails red,and the left to say our President is a lier and a murderer. You suck.

VOTE THE BUMS OUT IN 07 and 08

[Ladderwell]

Hummmm, brainwashed by the anti-war folks? No one on this site hates war more then I!!!!! However, war has been brought to us and we damn well have to fight it! The way it is Marine, get used to it or get ready to die for your brand of peace.

No one in Iraq brought the war to the US. We illegally invaded a soverign country based on lies, deception, and stupidity. What in God's name are we doing in this place?

We have zero justification for being there, and zero justification for the deaths of nearly 3000 GIs (with numbers mounting steadily, and accelerating even moreso), and between 355,000 and 960,000 Iraqis.

Proud to be an American? Proud of what is being done in our name? Ready to throw more bodies on the pile? Your's? Your loved ones? Not me.
*
Ladderwell
SF to our country.

[003XXMarineDAD]

Proud to be an American? Proud of what is being done in our name? Ready to throw more bodies on the pile? Your's? Your loved ones? Not me.


Ladderwell I would have given you this if I had not had the conversation with my son on Friday when I asked him if anything I did made him join the Marines.
This is his reply to me, Dad you raised me to think and use my heart and my brain to make decisions.I made the choice because it is what I wanted to do. I have seen things not so good but I know what we are doing over there is right and the thing to do.
It did not make me feel bad knowing I had raised a son that is a fine young man. I met many like him two weeks ago when they got back from Iraq Ladderwell.
Ladderwell you have stated that you have skin in the game next time you talk to them thank them from some one that supports them doing what they joined up to do. If that is wrong they must have joined for other reasons which is fine as long as they know many of us out here support them and are working hard to see that the Vietnam past never happens again.
I saw what happen and pray they never have to endure the hate the leftist laid upon them that came home to a ungrateful nation.
Now I suppose this makes me a warmonger is somes eyes. I know it is not but a very proud father of a very strong young man that is a MARINE.

Respectfully

:)

[greensideout]

No one in Iraq brought the war to the US. We illegally invaded a soverign country based on lies, deception, and stupidity. What in God's name are we doing in this place?

We have zero justification for being there, and zero justification for the deaths of nearly 3000 GIs (with numbers mounting steadily, and accelerating even moreso), and between 355,000 and 960,000 Iraqis.

Proud to be an American? Proud of what is being done in our name? Ready to throw more bodies on the pile? Your's? Your loved ones? Not me.
*
Ladderwell
SF to our country.


As you likely know, the war in Iraq is about economics. We are fighting there for our economic life! America could not have survived the change of petrodollars to petroeuros. Be glad that we are there to save your lifestyle and the future of America. We are killing two birds with one stone because the two birds are one---Islam!

[bootlace15]

Do you remember the color of the ink on the citizens of Iraq's fingers? Maybe if Saadam were still in power,there would not be any fingers left. Did you happen to see Ollie's War Stories when he had 3 men from Iraq. Do you remember what they looked like? Do you know they were in the United States to have surgury to repair their hands that were cut off by Sadaam and his sacumbag sons.

Don't you understand that this could happen to you,your family or friends. What the heck is the matter with you. By your mindset,you appear to have no guts. So in having said that Mrs Maggy Drawers,you just went UNK.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder,because with your attitude it'll be here and it probably won't be ours.:thumbdown

[Ladderwell]

Ladderwell I would have given you this if I had not had the conversation with my son on Friday when I asked him if anything I did made him join the Marines.
...
Now I suppose this makes me a warmonger is somes eyes. I know it is not but a very proud father of a very strong young man that is a MARINE.

Respectfully

:)

MarineDad,

We both have skin in the game. My son did his six as a Combat Medic in the Army, and dodged the bullet of Yugoslavia and the first Gulf war. The luck of the draw.

Our children did and do what is right by the way we raised them, by the examples we gave, and give. We give them all the support they need, and which we are capable of, and yet still need to be the parents in the equation so they are not needlessly put in harm's way. We value what our children do, but still protect them like a she-wolf ferociously protects her cubs, and join in to defend the integrity of the pack, even when the cubs are grown, Because we still have age, experience, knowledge, and wisdom on them, we are better prepared to recognize danger and react without hesitation.

That's all I'm trying to do. It is my instinct to protect them, and even challenge the leader of the pack if he is a poor one. With what has been done over the past 6 years in more theaters than Iraq (environment, federal parks, outright theft by the extremely rich in terms of taxes and making certain that the wealth of this country gets more and more concentrated at the top) has spurred me and millions like me to analyze the data, and get up in arms to try to change things.

I haven't flown my American flag that graced my brother's coffin since Bush backed away from Kyoto and canceled the new federal parks established by Clinton. I'm ready to look at it again like an adult this time, now that I've realized that the definition of what it means to be an American has been hijacked and polluted by the unworthy. I'll fly it again on Veteran's Day, and fight to restore and defend that definition to the glory it had before Bush and his cronies had their banana republic revolution adn hijacked America.

God bless you and your.
*
Ladderwell
SF

Let it fly

[Ladderwell]

Hummmm, brainwashed by the anti-war folks? No one on this site hates war more then I!!!!! However, war has been brought to us and we damn well have to fight it! The way it is Marine, get used to it or get ready to die for your brand of peace.

GSO,

Psst. Zero American soldiers were killed by the Iraqis before we invaded. The war was brought to us, but not by them.

We need to fight the correct enemy (It's still not Iraq), and not manufacture millions of the enemy by invading a soverign state for no good reason.

The first thing we need to do is show the world that we know how to pick competent leaders, and our current ones have done more harm than any presidency since Washington. It's going to be a longer war than necessary by a factor of 3000%. We should have left the Iraqis alone and fought the real war with the real enemies who attacked us. Our real fight cannot begin until we get the liars and perpetrators out of the White House.

Remember, no American troops were killed or maimed until we invaded their country.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
SF

[greensideout]

GSO,

Psst. Zero American soldiers were killed by the Iraqis before we invaded. The war was brought to us, but not by them.

We need to fight the correct enemy (It's still not Iraq), and not manufacture millions of the enemy by invading a soverign state for no good reason.

The first thing we need to do is show the world that we know how to pick competent leaders, and our current ones have done more harm than any presidency since Washington. It's going to be a longer war than necessary by a factor of 3000%. We should have left the Iraqis alone and fought the real war with the real enemies who attacked us. Our real fight cannot begin until we get the liars and perpetrators out of the White House.

Remember, no American troops were killed or maimed until we invaded their country.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
SF


Ok Ladderwell, I'll toss you a softball. Iraq brought us an economic war but you don't get it on that one so I will ask you who brought the attack to America on 9-11?

Psst. "Two birds with one stone".

[Ladderwell]

Do you remember the color of the ink on the citizens of Iraq's fingers? ...with you. By your mindset,you appear to have no guts. So in having said that Mrs Maggy Drawers,you just went UNK.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder,because with your attitude it'll be here and it probably won't be ours.:thumbdown

Bootlace15,

Do you know why we are in Iraq, why we've had nearly 3000 of our finest killed, not to mention the 10s of thousands wounded? If I make speak bluntly, none of the reasons we were given were found to be true, or honestly given (especially since it was proven that the intelligence was "cooked" by the Administration over the objection of General Powell and the CIA).

Before you condemn Saddham for his chopping off hands, look at what he kept the lid on by being cruel and harsh. It is the intercine warfare between the Shiites and the Sunnis, who have been at each others throats since Mohammed died, and there was a fight over Mohammed's relative or another chosen leader were to sit at the head of Islam. That's about 1400 years worth of hate, and we've traded a few indignities over chopped off hands for releasing the dogs of war on mankind again. Our leaders did that, and did in the name of America, in your name and mine.

For a quick analogy, read the history of Marshal Tito in Yugoslavia, who kept his knuckleheaded population under control with an iron fist. Once he was gone, the Balkans blew up...again.

By the way, Iraq never had acted in anger towards the US until we invaded. No American soldiers were killed until after we invaded. The State Department had worked up an occupation plan to rebuild the country immediately after the war. Our president and his administration REJECTED it, saying they had a better way. This was said in the face of Department that had done the same for Germany and Japan prior to WWII's ending. They were doing their job and had it ready to hand to our "leaders," and as a result of that rejection, it is too late to do it right. It will now take trillions of dollars and hundred of thousands of lives, ours and the Iraqis, where somewhere between 355,000 and 960,000 have already died as a direct result of our invasion 3 years ago. There's the tradeoff, a few hands in exchange for 300 years of war, and all of its horrible, tragic, immoral and unnecessary cost.

I know the smell of gunpowder. Not one grain was used on us by the Iraqis until we kicked in their door. Go to the library and ask your librarian for the ten (10) best books on studying the history of the Middle East. Read through them, and be changed.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis to God and Country

p.s. By the way, I fired 218 at PI's rifle range. Not too many Maggie's Drawers there. I like being near the center of my targets. ;=)

[Ladderwell]

As you likely know, the war in Iraq is about economics. We are fighting there for our economic life! America could not have survived the change of petrodollars to petroeuros. Be glad that we are there to save your lifestyle and the future of America. We are killing two birds with one stone because the two birds are one---Islam!

GSO,

Interesting input. Oil is certainly a critical factor, and it would be nice to wean us off our dependency on it before the greenhouse affect changes the planet, like stopping the Gulf Stream for example.

The oil companies are power kings in our government, on both sides of the aisle. Sadly they (who are rich and typically republican) have turned their backs on common sense by continuing to make gas guzzlers, while the Japanese have the most gas efficient cars on the road. That makes the oil companies greedy and callous, while the Japanese government is smarter and more sensitive to our planet earth. They are better planetary citizens than we are.

Islam is not our enemy. There is a division between Moderates and Radicals. The Republican administration has created more radicals than moderates, and the war on "radical Islam" will continue as long as our actions causes more babies to be born in the homes of radicals, and more moderates to go over to the other side as a result of our government's actions.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

Ok Ladderwell, I'll toss you a softball. Iraq brought us an economic war but you don't get it on that one so I will ask you who brought the attack to America on 9-11?

Psst. "Two birds with one stone".

GSO,

First, Iraq did not bring us an economic war. We brought it to them, and brought it on ourselves.

If history is prologue, we should have "sensed it coming." The best sense I can make of it is that the Saudi's kept the Wahabbi Islamic sect under control by being tough, and by bribing them. What tipped over the applecart was our first Gulf War actions by stationing troops and planes on Saudi Arabia soil. We were "infidels," so had to be punished, hence 9/11, and 18 of the murderers were Saudis.

The reason why we should have sensed it coming is that we pushed the radicals to the edge, playing with fire, and retaliation was not to be unexpected. That being said, the Moderates were still keeping them under reasonable control, (it was only 2 buildings and a few thousand people), the Republican administrations wildly irresponsible actions of tearing off the top of Pandora's Box that the Radicals were again energized like they could only dream of, and this war will last for centuries before we can get them "back into the box."

For the moderates and the Europeans, who have dealt with radical islam off and on since the year 650, our actions were horrifically stupid, irrational, perhaps suicidal, and loudly warned us of serious consequences. President Mubarak from Egypt said that if we invade Iraq we will "create 10,000 Osama Bin Ladens." That may be an underestimated number. Because they lived it before, they did not need to sense what was coming, they knew what was coming. We turned deaf ears to their counsel.

9/11 was only a factor in the equation. The real beginning of our troubles was when the Bush League invaded Iraq. Woe the cost in life and treasure.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF :=)

[greensideout]

GSO,

Interesting input. Oil is certainly a critical factor, and it would be nice to wean us off our dependency on it before the greenhouse affect changes the planet, like stopping the Gulf Stream for example.

The oil companies are power kings in our government, on both sides of the aisle. Sadly they (who are rich and typically republican) have turned their backs on common sense by continuing to make gas guzzlers, while the Japanese have the most gas efficient cars on the road. That makes the oil companies greedy and callous, while the Japanese government is smarter and more sensitive to our planet earth. They are better planetary citizens than we are.

Islam is not our enemy. There is a division between Moderates and Radicals. The Republican administration has created more radicals than moderates, and the war on "radical Islam" will continue as long as our actions causes more babies to be born in the homes of radicals, and more moderates to go over to the other side as a result of our government's actions.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF


I think that the problem started a long time before the Bush administration. Carter had a little mix up with them as did Clinton but neither took effective action to slow it down. Along came Bush and 9-11. He took action on the total scope of the war. You don't seem pleased?

What would you suggest to the democrats to solve the war and at the same time protect our nation?

[Ladderwell]

I think that the problem started a long time before the Bush administration. Carter had a little mix up with them as did Clinton but neither took effective action to slow it down. Along came Bush and 9-11. He took action on the total scope of the war. You don't seem pleased?

What would you suggest to the democrats to solve the war and at the same time protect our nation?

GSO,
Okay. Good point on Carter, who inherited the fallout of actions of even earlier administrations who helped the Shah take power, and hold it until he was overthrown.

Let's talk Bush for a minute. An intelligent man would have realized all of the tremendous goodwill of the world for the US after 9/11. The radicals made a horrific mistake that put more of the majority of the Islamic world on our side than before 9/11. It's human nature to act that way.

The democrats would not have invaded Iraq, proven to not have a whit to do with the attack or exporting terrorism. Saddham saw to that pretty well. It was one of the reasons George, Sr. didn't listen to his adisors (Cheney & Rumsfeld). He knew that "if we break it, we own it."

If the people of the United States elect a Democratic government, I would expect that merely having a Democrat vs. Republican administration to show the world would capture the attention of the people who do not listen to us because of our blunders, high-handedness, arrogance and cowboyism. Getting their attention is first. Second, we need to go to the root of the problem by fully supporting the moderate Muslims in their skills and experience of holding the radicals in check. We need to do basic homework on that to find out what they need. We cannot dismiss all Muslims out of hand. They represent 1/4 of the world's population. Thirdly, we need to get to the roots of the problem, by getting to what is taught to the children about the US and the West. They learn from example, and if invading an Islamic country is our example, well, we reap what we sew. Fourthly (sic), the goodwill that we had access to after 9/11 has been flushed down the toilet by the Republican administration. We need to put more energies into finding the actual combatants by diverting wastefully used resources fighting a dumb war, and give it to hunting down and killing those who have arms in their hand with intent to use them against us. We can then peel the onion back to its source of nourishment, so the hate never makes it to adulthood.

Well, that is what I hope and pray will happen. We only stand of chance of a turnaround if Americans elect a Democrat administration. Four more years of Republicans will probably kill the country. They turn deaf ears to common sense, and do not take wise counsel when given. The Democrats are the only option available to begin seeing or heading towards the light of day.

Good night.
*
LW :=)

[bootlace15]

ladderwell,

you have your opinion and i have mine. Saadam is a horrible person as were his two sons. They get away with murder of innocent people,thousands of innocent people,men women and children. Thats ok with you though.

Iraq has had training camps in their country for years. Those that harbor terrorists are just as guilty of murdering 3000 citizens of the world on 9/11 as usama is. Remember the USS Cole,and our Beiruit Embassy,remember the first boming in NY? Remember Sadaam wanting to pay 25,000 dollars to suicide bomers.

Granted oil,may have something to do with it,but its not the whole picture. Everyone still wants to come into this country. Why? When ever there is a problem with human rights,whether its a nation trying to overthrow their own government or a disaster occurs for some reason,they rely on our country to bail them out. We give and give and give,thats who we are.

Now that the terrorists are trying to spred their so called religon all over the world,and they do it their way by murder,its our fault!!!!!!!!!!Thats a real nice religon. The whole problem with our country is the liberals and the media,and the laws that the ACLU have created make it harder and harder for any problems to get resolved.

Henceforth-oil, relax the taxes on the oil companies,have the states relax their taxes on oil. Change some of the laws on the enviroment so that we can drill for our own oil, while we work on a better solution for energy. This is what needs to be done,then maybe just maybe we can have a war about something else that we don't agree on.

Bootlace15 out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WalkingMan]

Ok Ladderwell, I'll toss you a softball. Iraq brought us an economic war but you don't get it on that one so I will ask you who brought the attack to America on 9-11?

Psst. "Two birds with one stone".

Islam is cleverly using the claim that it is a religion, as a strategy of war.

If a group of people from Alabama went to Iraq and blew up a Mosque, would Islam feel required to strike back at only Alabamans, or would they feel it was their right to attack any US citizen they could find, in any state of the USA, or in any foreign country?

Islam has declared Jihad against the entire non-Muslim population of the world.

Therefore, it seems reasonable to me that all Muslims, anywhere on the planet, are fair targets.

If the Infidels of the world choose not to go to the same extreme lengths as the Jihadists... slaughtering children, women, shooting nuns in the back, etc... it is not because they owe Muslims any sort of decent treatment... it is because they are more civilised than Islam permits Muslims to be.

[003XXMarineDAD]

The Democrats are the only option available to begin seeing or heading towards the light of day.


:sick:
The problem with that statement is that ,it is the train coming straight toward them.
They will be the deer in the headlights.
:D
Respectfully

[greensideout]

GSO,

First, Iraq did not bring us an economic war. We brought it to them, and brought it on ourselves.

If history is prologue, we should have "sensed it coming." The best sense I can make of it is that the Saudi's kept the Wahabbi Islamic sect under control by being tough, and by bribing them. What tipped over the applecart was our first Gulf War actions by stationing troops and planes on Saudi Arabia soil. We were "infidels," so had to be punished, hence 9/11, and 18 of the murderers were Saudis.

The reason why we should have sensed it coming is that we pushed the radicals to the edge, playing with fire, and retaliation was not to be unexpected. That being said, the Moderates were still keeping them under reasonable control, (it was only 2 buildings and a few thousand people), the Republican administrations wildly irresponsible actions of tearing off the top of Pandora's Box that the Radicals were again energized like they could only dream of, and this war will last for centuries before we can get them "back into the box."

For the moderates and the Europeans, who have dealt with radical islam off and on since the year 650, our actions were horrifically stupid, irrational, perhaps suicidal, and loudly warned us of serious consequences. President Mubarak from Egypt said that if we invade Iraq we will "create 10,000 Osama Bin Ladens." That may be an underestimated number. Because they lived it before, they did not need to sense what was coming, they knew what was coming. We turned deaf ears to their counsel.

9/11 was only a factor in the equation. The real beginning of our troubles was when the Bush League invaded Iraq. Woe the cost in life and treasure.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF :=)


I thought that you might find this artcle interesting in reguard to the economic side of the war. Read his bio as well, it's worth the time.

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?&articleid=899

[Ladderwell]

ladderwell,

you have your opinion and i have mine. Saadam is a horrible person as were his two sons. They get away with murder of innocent people,thousands of innocent people,men women and children. Thats ok with you though.


Iraq has had training camps in their country for years. Those that harbor terrorists are just as guilty of murdering 3000 citizens of the world on 9/11 as usama is. Remember the USS Cole,and our Beiruit Embassy,remember the first boming in NY? Remember Sadaam wanting to pay 25,000 dollars to suicide bomers.

Granted oil,may have something to do with it,but its not the whole picture. Everyone still wants to come into this country. Why? When ever there is a problem with human rights,whether its a nation trying to overthrow their own government or a disaster occurs for some reason,they rely on our country to bail them out. We give and give and give,thats who we are.

Now that the terrorists are trying to spred their so called religon all over the world,and they do it their way by murder,its our fault!!!!!!!!!!Thats a real nice religon. The whole problem with our country is the liberals and the media,and the laws that the ACLU have created make it harder and harder for any problems to get resolved.

Henceforth-oil, relax the taxes on the oil companies,have the states relax their taxes on oil. Change some of the laws on the enviroment so that we can drill for our own oil, while we work on a better solution for energy. This is what needs to be done,then maybe just maybe we can have a war about something else that we don't agree on.

Bootlace15 out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi bootlace15,

Saddam is a horrible guy. Everyone should be able to recognize that. Should he have be removed as the leader in Iraq? Certainly not the way he was removed. We've traded thousands of their dead (at Saddam's hands) for the 355,000 to 960,000 Iraqis who have died in the war only because the US acted the way it did, plus nearly 3000 of of our own dead, and ignited a war that will last for centuries, spread globally (energized by our invasion of the country), and will kill hundreds of thousands of Americans while we go broke on this fool's errand. The Republican's were as headstrong as mules, did not listen to the voice of reason and experience, and blundered forth.

I do not know where you got your data, but Iraq did not have terrorist training camps. Saddam hated the radicals, and anyone else who stood in the way of his regime (sic). Any and every armed group in Iraq were treated like threats, and he kept an iron heel on the back of their necks. No Iraqsi participated in the USS Cole, the Marine Barracks or the first attack on the Twin Towers. None. Training camps for terrorists would be like scorpions and rattlesnakes being kept in the same box. Would't work. Was never there in Iraq.

The 25,000 dollars Saddam gave to the suicide Palestinian bombers was to fly in the face of the post-Gulf War control we, and the rest of the world, had over Iraq. He did that mainly to p*ss us off.

Since the Republicans took control of our government, the US in the world has been in the decline.
1. We thumbed our noses at the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty.
2. We've invaded a soverign country against the advice and will of the rest of the world. We've threatened everyone else.
3. The Christian Right has taken over the White House with Christian prayer meetings, people carrying the bible in their hands as they move about. That is very unsettling to the rest of mankind (and the majority) who are not Christians. A supposed Christian government is as bad as a supposed Islamic one. They're both tyrannical and irrational.
4. The Republicans have sh*t upon the Geneva Convention, shouting from the mountaintops that they are going to do it "their way." There is a better way to accomplish what needs to be done, but from now on, heaven help our soldiers who are caught anywhere in the world by any government. They are even more at risk because of the blunders.

With the horrifically poor leaders, America has become like a balloon with a leak in it. Out goes our credibility, our record of moral behavior, our record of helping the weak (being helped but only if they are willing to "listen to the Word of the Lord"), our reasonableness in dealing with problems with the spreading of AIDS (only abstinence is taught), our honesty (the lies that were told), our history of Justice (going off half-cocked in the spy programs the Republicans created. The Free and Democratic society we had was circumvented (even when there were legal ways to get done what needed to get done). Yes, people want to come here, but the air is going out of the balloon, and unless we elect a Democrat led government, we are unable to get air back into it to keep it from crashing like the Hindenberg zeppelin.

When the terrorists (mostly Saudi, with none from Iraq) crashed into the Twin Towers, they hurt their cause in the eyes of the rest of the world, and moderate Islam. We actually had the radicals on the ropes. The best thing the US could have done to help the radicals cause was to invade Iraq. There we played right into their hands, and are dying and wasting our treasure because of it. Now we're on the ropes, with a rising tide of hate towards America that you, me, our children, and children's children will be fighting for centuries.

Before you attack the "Liberals," remember that it was the Liberals who brought us out of the Dark Ages with "Enlightenment" and scientific knowledge. The liberals were people who were not afraid to bring new knowledge to the table (ex. the World is round, the earth revolves around the sun, disease is caused by germs, not evil spirits, there is more than one acceptable way to address creation and the spiritual nature of existence, and no one has a monopoly on it. It was the "Liberals" who accelerated the evolution of human societies, and the "Conservatives" who tried to keep up as full blown members of the "Flat Earth Society."

We cannot attack the media for reporting what they see. As responsible citizens, we need to get our news from reputable media outlets. Kooks, such as FOX and Rush Limbaugh, and the Religious Right radio and TV stations are lobotomizing those who expose themselves to no other. We need to be well-read enough to separate the fact from fiction. Body count is a pretty good benchmark.

Here are the first 2 paragraphs from the ACLU's mission statement:

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

Personally, I don't see much to disagree with. How about you?

Finally, and then I'll shut up for a while {...You're welcome ;=)}, the Oil industry sells oil to make money. Why have the Japanese produced the top two (2) hybrid cars on the planet? They want to conserve oil, not suck it out of the planet as fast as we can use it, and force even more Global Warming in the process. American car buyers (except for a VW I owned back in 1972, all of my cars are American made) are typically not buying the most climate-conscious vehicles, but they use a lot of oil and gas, and that makes the Oil companies richer. I'm now torn between buying American, and buying Smart.

Bootlace15, keep your head in the game. I'm glad you're engaging in dialog, as that is what Socrates did to help all people grow. "Ideas" and "Truth" need to be able to stand tall in the light of day, and stand up to argument, even hard argument. Keep growing. As former Marines, we are to more fully realize our responsiblities as citizens, and act on them.

Take care, and the best of good fortune be with you and yours.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF :=)

[Ladderwell]

Islam is cleverly using the claim that it is a religion, as a strategy of war.

If a group of people from Alabama went to Iraq and blew up a Mosque, would Islam feel required to strike back at only Alabamans, or would they feel it was their right to attack any US citizen they could find, in any state of the USA, or in any foreign country?

Islam has declared Jihad against the entire non-Muslim population of the world.

Therefore, it seems reasonable to me that all Muslims, anywhere on the planet, are fair targets.

If the Infidels of the world choose not to go to the same extreme lengths as the Jihadists... slaughtering children, women, shooting nuns in the back, etc... it is not because they owe Muslims any sort of decent treatment... it is because they are more civilised than Islam permits Muslims to be.

Hello WalkingMan,

A group of people from Alabama DID go to Iraq and blow up a mosque, albeit as part of an invasion force. If a bunch of Iraqis blew up a church here, I would hesitate before I decided to kill my Iraqi neighbor next door. he had nothing to do with it, identical to the US reacting to 9/11 by attacking a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

The radical Islamists are the "black sheep" of Islam, and do not represent the majority. The Islamic moderates do that. If the black sheep of my family (my crazy brother for example) killed someone, I would feel slighted if the courts came after me and mine because of that familial association.

Yes, Islam was founded by the sword (Check out the "Sword of Mohammed" on the Saudi flag), but in my research I was surprised to find out that not all Islam was founded by the sword, lots were spread by ideas and beliefs in their values. Even here in America the Black Muslims rallied around the religion as a rejection of the "white man's religion," and in reaction to the three (3) centuries of oppression imposed on them by the slave trade. The Moderates legitimized Islam, and do their best to keep their "black sheep" in check, but they need our support, not our hate or bigotry to do so.

The Muslim world has not declared "Jihad" against the West. That is a term misappropriated by the radicals to take the Jihad concept of fighting evil within oneself, and moving it outside the body and into the political world. In my study of Islam, there runs a very strong vein of respect for other religions, especially "people of the Book (i.e. our bible)." I discovered that when I thought my son or godson, or many others I know were close to going to a Muslim part of the world. I tried to create a ground "primer" to give them a lay of the land when encountering muslims. It was a learning experience for me.

We need to get objective for a little bit. Let's imagine we are observing the goings on here on Earth from Mars. We see children slaughtered, nuns shot in the back, people shot in church, blown to bits with planes used as weapons. We then see the group of attacked people pull together an army, and attack a country that did not originate the other assaults, but were still subject to significant collateral damage (religious people, children, etc), destruction of their technical infrastructure, bombing of bunkers that were filled with 300 children, and the incidental deaths of 355,000 to 960,000 Iraqis as a direct result of the invasion (only a small percentage were radicals). What would our observations yield in interpreting these results? I don't think we'd be giving any kudos to either side.

A couple of quick items, and then I've got to split:
1. Check out the Sufis. I like them a lot, and have a tremendous amount of overlap with the spiritual elements of the world's religions. They're worth a look.
2. Check out the "B'Hai" faith. It was founded by a muslim in Iran (naturally, he was murdered), but he created a "next generation" religion that was an evolutionary step for religion, much as Christianity was intended at its inception. If I were brave enough, I'd get on that bandwagon in a minute, because they offer all inclusiveness to people from anywhere and everywhere. It takes the best of all religions, and brings that together in a new religion of tolerance, acceptance and peace. I visited their temple in Chicago, and saw a pretty motley crew of believers, and they were from all nations and all walks of life. It offered hope in this "us against them" world.

Gotta git.
G'nite.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

I thought that you might find this artcle interesting in reguard to the economic side of the war. Read his bio as well, it's worth the time.

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?&articleid=899

GSO,.
Good article. No disagreements here.
*
LW :=)
SF

[6yrforMar]

Our enemys have a plan,they were willing to smuggle explosive chemicals in their babies formula,board aircraft with their baby and blow up themselves and all of the passengers of aircraft over American cities.I don`t see Ms.Murtha and Hanoi Kerry having any kind of a plan.I forgot they have the same plan CNN has,they give encouragement to their large block of undecided voters,guess who{some of them live in caves}

[David Jameson]

Thank you Dale and the rest of you people.As some of you may or may not know ,guys like Ladderwomen throw me right to the floor.I get so frigin angry I do not no if I want to laugh or cry.I mean that. I think comments him and people like him ,presented the way he does .Give----Hell with it I'm to ****ed off .I have also met our people comming back.Some for the 2nd time. I dare say he would probly be walking around with a seem on the side of hiis head If he wanted to present his ideas for victory at this stage of the game.The reason I say thank you Dale and the rest is you express your oppinion in alot better. BUT again he is intitiled to his Blah ,Blah Blah . I am to --**** you Ladderwomen

[OLE SARG]

I glad to see that ms ladderwell is still spewing her leftist rhetoric. AND he is still defending ms murtha and ****head kerry AND I think he believes the BS they spew!!!!!
Good example of a leftist clone!

SEMPER FI,

[David Jameson]

Sorry Walkingman and you guys.I did'nt think out my remarks very carefully.God ,where to these people come from?

[SgtHopperUSMC]

Funny you should say it's this administrations actions that caused the U.S. to not have enough troops. Any one remember the huge cutbacks after Desert Storm? Gee who was in charge then? I remember...

[SgtHopperUSMC]

Hi bootlace15,

Saddam is a horrible guy. Everyone should be able to recognize that. Should he have be removed as the leader in Iraq? Certainly not the way he was removed. We've traded thousands of their dead (at Saddam's hands) for the 355,000 to 960,000 Iraqis who have died in the war only because the US acted the way it did, plus nearly 3000 of of our own dead, and ignited a war that will last for centuries, spread globally (energized by our invasion of the country), and will kill hundreds of thousands of Americans while we go broke on this fool's errand. The Republican's were as headstrong as mules, did not listen to the voice of reason and experience, and blundered forth.

I do not know where you got your data, but Iraq did not have terrorist training camps. Saddam hated the radicals, and anyone else who stood in the way of his regime (sic). Any and every armed group in Iraq were treated like threats, and he kept an iron heel on the back of their necks. No Iraqsi participated in the USS Cole, the Marine Barracks or the first attack on the Twin Towers. None. Training camps for terrorists would be like scorpions and rattlesnakes being kept in the same box. Would't work. Was never there in Iraq.

The 25,000 dollars Saddam gave to the suicide Palestinian bombers was to fly in the face of the post-Gulf War control we, and the rest of the world, had over Iraq. He did that mainly to p*ss us off.

Since the Republicans took control of our government, the US in the world has been in the decline.
1. We thumbed our noses at the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty.
2. We've invaded a soverign country against the advice and will of the rest of the world. We've threatened everyone else.
3. The Christian Right has taken over the White House with Christian prayer meetings, people carrying the bible in their hands as they move about. That is very unsettling to the rest of mankind (and the majority) who are not Christians. A supposed Christian government is as bad as a supposed Islamic one. They're both tyrannical and irrational.
4. The Republicans have sh*t upon the Geneva Convention, shouting from the mountaintops that they are going to do it "their way." There is a better way to accomplish what needs to be done, but from now on, heaven help our soldiers who are caught anywhere in the world by any government. They are even more at risk because of the blunders.

With the horrifically poor leaders, America has become like a balloon with a leak in it. Out goes our credibility, our record of moral behavior, our record of helping the weak (being helped but only if they are willing to "listen to the Word of the Lord"), our reasonableness in dealing with problems with the spreading of AIDS (only abstinence is taught), our honesty (the lies that were told), our history of Justice (going off half-cocked in the spy programs the Republicans created. The Free and Democratic society we had was circumvented (even when there were legal ways to get done what needed to get done). Yes, people want to come here, but the air is going out of the balloon, and unless we elect a Democrat led government, we are unable to get air back into it to keep it from crashing like the Hindenberg zeppelin.

When the terrorists (mostly Saudi, with none from Iraq) crashed into the Twin Towers, they hurt their cause in the eyes of the rest of the world, and moderate Islam. We actually had the radicals on the ropes. The best thing the US could have done to help the radicals cause was to invade Iraq. There we played right into their hands, and are dying and wasting our treasure because of it. Now we're on the ropes, with a rising tide of hate towards America that you, me, our children, and children's children will be fighting for centuries.

Before you attack the "Liberals," remember that it was the Liberals who brought us out of the Dark Ages with "Enlightenment" and scientific knowledge. The liberals were people who were not afraid to bring new knowledge to the table (ex. the World is round, the earth revolves around the sun, disease is caused by germs, not evil spirits, there is more than one acceptable way to address creation and the spiritual nature of existence, and no one has a monopoly on it. It was the "Liberals" who accelerated the evolution of human societies, and the "Conservatives" who tried to keep up as full blown members of the "Flat Earth Society."

We cannot attack the media for reporting what they see. As responsible citizens, we need to get our news from reputable media outlets. Kooks, such as FOX and Rush Limbaugh, and the Religious Right radio and TV stations are lobotomizing those who expose themselves to no other. We need to be well-read enough to separate the fact from fiction. Body count is a pretty good benchmark.

Here are the first 2 paragraphs from the ACLU's mission statement:

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

Personally, I don't see much to disagree with. How about you?

Finally, and then I'll shut up for a while {...You're welcome ;=)}, the Oil industry sells oil to make money. Why have the Japanese produced the top two (2) hybrid cars on the planet? They want to conserve oil, not suck it out of the planet as fast as we can use it, and force even more Global Warming in the process. American car buyers (except for a VW I owned back in 1972, all of my cars are American made) are typically not buying the most climate-conscious vehicles, but they use a lot of oil and gas, and that makes the Oil companies richer. I'm now torn between buying American, and buying Smart.

Bootlace15, keep your head in the game. I'm glad you're engaging in dialog, as that is what Socrates did to help all people grow. "Ideas" and "Truth" need to be able to stand tall in the light of day, and stand up to argument, even hard argument. Keep growing. As former Marines, we are to more fully realize our responsiblities as citizens, and act on them.

Take care, and the best of good fortune be with you and yours.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF :=) 2nd Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Oh, by the way ever read the constitution? Ever look at the begining of this country? What was it founded on agian?

[Ladderwell]

Our enemys have a plan,they were willing to smuggle explosive chemicals in their babies formula,board aircraft with their baby and blow up themselves and all of the passengers of aircraft over American cities.I don`t see Ms.Murtha and Hanoi Kerry having any kind of a plan.I forgot they have the same plan CNN has,they give encouragement to their large block of undecided voters,guess who{some of them live in caves}

For the past three (3) years of "staying the course," the Republican plan is to continue to dig a hole straight down, heaping the corpses of our loved ones around the crater. A vote for the Republicans is a "job security" vote for you children, grandchildren, etc. They'll be in uniform fighting a war that their parents and grandparents did not have to start.

Can you tell me what Iraq had to do with terrorism? They had none. They trained none. They exported none. Iraq had ZERO, ZIP, NADA to do with terrorism. Can you give me a rational and sound justification as to why we invaded them? Please try to do so. I haven't heard one yet.

BTW, can you show us your Silver Star adn 3 Purple Hearts? Unless you have been baptized by the same fire, you may have the right, but not the moral justification for criticizing either of them. No one but those who have seen the world through their eyes can understand their real motivations for trying to Stop the Madness!

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF to today's and tomorrow's Marines.

[Ladderwell]

Thank you Dale and the rest of you people.As some of you may or may not know ,guys like Ladderwomen throw me right to the floor.I get so frigin angry I do not no if I want to laugh or cry.I mean that. I think comments him and people like him ,presented the way he does .Give----Hell with it I'm to ****ed off .I have also met our people comming back.Some for the 2nd time. I dare say he would probly be walking around with a seem on the side of hiis head If he wanted to present his ideas for victory at this stage of the game.The reason I say thank you Dale and the rest is you express your oppinion in alot better. BUT again he is intitiled to his Blah ,Blah Blah . I am to --**** you Ladderwomen

David Jameson,

Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. Why are we there? Why are our brothers and sisters dying? If your out of the Corps, act to take care of the Corps. Please do not confuse your responsibility with the responsibility of the people on the ground. They are radically different. They obey their chain of command. Who do we obey? Common sense? Good judgement? Do you think "staying the course (more soldiers die)" is the right course?

Us old farts went through the Nam Era experience when we were young and uninformed. We lost 75,000 there before throwing in the towel (the people didn't want us there), and for what? For their natural course of history to play itself out as if we weren't even there? Doesn't anyone get angry for our body count in Iraq? We're doing the same thing in Iraq as we did in Viet Nam, not counting the killed Iraqis as important as our own dead. Hooray.

That's what is going to happen in Iraq. The same thing that's been happening for 1450 years. If we are in Iraq for 5 years, 50 years, or 500 years, when we pull out, taking away our dead and emptying our treasury, and losing any goodwill we generated during our first 230 years, it will eventually be like we weren't even there, and for what?

Everybody and their grandmother knows we have turned Iraq into a training camp, proving ground, and source of 10s of thousands of terrorists, who will leave there and go back into the world. WTF!??! How can former Marines line up behind this? We need a New Direction other than South.

Let's think, and perhaps read. Go your local library and ask the Reference Librarian for a book or three that will give the best picture of the history of the region. The truth will give you pause to stop and think.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

Funny you should say it's this administrations actions that caused the U.S. to not have enough troops. Any one remember the huge cutbacks after Desert Storm? Gee who was in charge then? I remember...

[OLE SARG]

ladderwell,
It is easy to talk about ms kerry's Silver Star and his Purple Hearts - I could have had some Purple Hearts for all the elephant grass cuts I got but I chose not to unlike pseudo-hero kerry. I understand ms kerry went through a box of bandades for his "wounds". When you can write your own citations for awards it makes it easy to get them - by the way, I believe ms kerry is on his third re-write of his Silver Star citation - DOES THAT TELL YOU ANY ****ING THING ABOUT THIS SCUMBAG ??????????????????????????? Why hasn't this piece of **** kerry fully disclosed his military record???? Kinda tells you the ****head has something to hid!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIKE ethics, loyality, patriotism, courage, backbone, gonads, etc!!!!!!!
Another thing, I wouldn't call shooting a VC in the back "Baptized by the same fire"!!!!!!!! fatass murtha and kerry are both a disgrace to the uniforms they once wore!!

SEMPER FI,

[Ladderwell]

2nd Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Oh, by the way ever read the constitution? Ever look at the begining of this country? What was it founded on agian?

SgtHopperUSMC,

Per your suggestion, I checked out the Preamble to the Constitution:

The Constitution of the United States of America

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

In reading this, let's look at how the Republicans have lived up to their constitutional responsibilities:
1. "...form a more perfect union." The country has never been this divided. Wouldn't you agree?
2. "Establish Justice." They have trampled on the legal structure readily available to accomplish anything they want to do. The deem themselves ABOVE THE LAW, including trashing the Geneva Convention. How'd you like to be a prisioner with any of our enemies now? Now that we've lost the moral high ground.
3. "Insure domestic tranquility." Listened to the radio lately? How about what rest of the world thinks of us? They even have us former Marines going toe-to-toe. The Republicans have made me ashamed to be an American.
4. "Provide for the common defense." No one on earth can say the US is safer now than before the Republican took over the Senate, House and Presidency. They have and are wasting our soldiers and our treasury, and have given maximized tax cuts to the wealthy, so there is even less money available for our common defense.
5. "Promote general welfare." Incomes have fallen since the Republicans completed their coup. Fewer tax dollars are going to help the weak and infirm, even hitting VA benefits and hosptials. I don't see much if any success there.
6. "...secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity." We are no longer as free as we were before the Republicans took control. We cannot go to other countries without facing the hate generated by our bad politicians, the Bill of Rights is under assault (the shield for our personal freedoms), and posterity. Our children and grandchildren will pay for our sins in electing such horrible leadership. Our posterity looks bleak.

Lastly WWJB (Who Would Jesus Bomb?)?
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
ST

[Ladderwell]

I glad to see that ms ladderwell is still spewing her leftist rhetoric. AND he is still defending ms murtha and ****head kerry AND I think he believes the BS they spew!!!!!
Good example of a leftist clone!

SEMPER FI,

Ole Sarge,

Would be happy to see any good reasons for invading Iraq.
*
Ladderwell
SF

p.s. If you had as much salad on your chest as Kerry and Murtha, people would take your comments about them with more seriousness.

[Ladderwell]

ladderwell,
It is easy to talk about ms kerry's Silver Star and his Purple Hearts - I could have had some Purple Hearts for all the elephant grass cuts I got but I chose not to unlike pseudo-hero kerry. I understand ms kerry went through a box of bandades for his "wounds". When you can write your own citations for awards it makes it easy to get them - by the way, I believe ms kerry is on his third re-write of his Silver Star citation - DOES THAT TELL YOU ANY ****ING THING ABOUT THIS SCUMBAG ??????????????????????????? Why hasn't this piece of **** kerry fully disclosed his military record???? Kinda tells you the ****head has something to hid!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIKE ethics, loyality, patriotism, courage, backbone, gonads, etc!!!!!!!
Another thing, I wouldn't call shooting a VC in the back "Baptized by the same fire"!!!!!!!! fatass murtha and kerry are both a disgrace to the uniforms they once wore!!

SEMPER FI,

Ole Sarge,

I respectfully disagree with you on this point. However, please note that the energy people put into cursing Kerry and Murtha distract us from the real issue: Why are we in Iraq? And why does digging a deeper hole ("stay the course.") seem like a bright idea?

You're old enough to have grandkids. Do you want to see them needlesssly put into someone's meat grinder? I don't want mine there, not without fighting as I've been taught to fight. I hope your on the same side with me when it comes to voting for "staying the course" or a "New Direction." It's important, and can only begin the damage control.
*
Respectfully,

Ladderwell
SF

[greensideout]

Ole Sarge,


p.s. If you had as much salad on your chest as Kerry and Murtha, people would take your comments about them with more seriousness.


I am just sitting on the side reading for a change but I am really surprised that you made a comment like that to a brother Marine that served in nam!
Anyway, I am a "people" here and I take the meaning of his comments as I choose. So ladderwell, don't speak for the "people" carte blanche.

[drumcorpssnare]

ladderwell- Let's take a look again, at the Constitution's Preamble.....

"in order to form a more perfect union" You say, "The country has never been this divided." Did you forget the Civil War? Or the unrest during Vietnam? Your statement clearly points to the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about!

"establish justice" Nothing has really changed for America's law abiding citizens. The 'bad guys' are a little more uneasy. As for the Geneva Conventions...no country has EVER followed these rules COMPLETELY, since their inception. Americans being prisoners of our enemies? Our enemies have CONSISTENTLY accorded us poor treatment, torture, and murder. So, nothing new here. Again ladderwell, you don't know what you are talking about!

"establish domestic tranquility" If the media shared the thoughts and opinions of our servicemen and women, instead of the leftist liberal lies from the likes of CNN etc., they would know that America's troops WANT to be doing the job, they want to CONTINUE the job; they want to FINISH the job!

"provide for the common defense" Simply put...America has probably NEVER been safer than it is now, from foriegn enemies. So, explain to us how we are more vulnerable NOW, than in say, 1990.

"promote the general welfare" Thanks to the Republicans, the economy has recovered from the wasteful 'tax and spend' of the Clinton era. The lazy, worthless people who became dependant on the liberal 'handouts' of the Democrats...these people need to GET A JOB!!!!!
And as for America being hated by foreign countries...unless we are handing out free food and money, or defending them (FRANCE) from tyranny,
they have hated us for more than a century. Nothing new. AGAIN, YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!

That is all.

[OLE SARG]

I tried to PM ms ladderwell with my comments about his sideways snipe at me. The pseudo-intellect does not take PM's.

He apparently stays in his turtle shell, and spews all HIS LEFTIST BS but cannot take the repercussions from his rants.

With his fake heros murtha and kerry, it is no wonder he has diarrhea of the mouth!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,