M-16a2

[Wolfman07]

I been wondering about this for awhile so I thought I'd ask. How much kick does an M-16A2 have? The rifle that I normally fire is a 7.62x54 WWII Russian carbine that has a fair amount of kick in my opinion. Is the M-16 much less?

[Camper51]

You don't even feel an M-16A2 kick.

[Brooklyn]

You should go rent one at a local range. Compared to shooting an AK/47 I think the recoil is ALOT less!

[CrazyBrave83]

I been wondering about this for awhile so I thought I'd ask. How much kick does an M-16A2 have? The rifle that I normally fire is a 7.62x54 WWII Russian carbine that has a fair amount of kick in my opinion. Is the M-16 much less?

The difference is miles apart. If you fire a 7.62 Carbine of WWII Era, I guarantee you firing an M16 is going to feel like absolutely nothing. It kicks similar to what a .22 would...meaning it's still there, but it's not going to be balls out.

[Stanley Hroszow]

little bang bangs

[Brooklyn]

How often do Marines have to qualify once out of Boot Camp, if ever?

[Parker-0321]

the M16a2 is gas operated so there isnt much kick, that means that the expanding gases from the bullet open the bolt before the bullet has exited the barrel, giving the gun VERY little kick.

[Future-USMC-LT]

You'll qualify once every fiscal year.

[Brooklyn]

the M16a2 is gas operated so there isnt much kick, that means that the expanding gases from the bullet open the bolt before the bullet has exited the barrel, giving the gun VERY little kick.

That's nice and well, but...explain why an AK/47 has the recoil it does when it's also gas operated. The M16 fires a small bullet, of course the recoil would be low.


You'll qualify once every fiscal year.

What happens if you fail?

[Parker-0321]

when i get my grubby hands on an AK47 i'll let you know. from what i do know, they are a tough weapon, you can bury them in the mud and they'll fire the same, they're cheap because there are like...1854578439205737857438905 of them out there. so eventually..

oh the M-16 fires a .223 Remington but i have also seen them in 9mm (why? i dont know)

[Brooklyn]

Just a simple conversion. I think the AR's look pretty silly with that little skinny 9mm mag. sticking out of it. Ugghhh....small bullets....:sick:

There's a company called DPMS that make diff. variants of the AR-15. They have a model chambered in 6.88mm. I tried to get my hands on one but my local dealer said they're extremely hard to come by. But it seems like it's the perfect balance between 5.56mm and 7.62.

[CrazyBrave83]

That's nice and well, but...explain why an AK/47 has the recoil it does when it's also gas operated. The M16 fires a small bullet, of course the recoil would be low.


Two things. One, as you mentioned, the 5.56 round is about half the size of a 7.62 (just for comparison - grain wise).

Second, the M16 is a much more tempermental weapon with more complicated parts. That could very well be a reason for the large kick of the AK-47. It's an extremely simple receiver so there isn't much energy transfer. That 7.62 round is coming straight out of the buttstock, which is a piece of wood, not polymer. More rigid, larger round, and considerably less graceful could all equal more kick.

[Brooklyn]

Two things. One, as you mentioned, the 5.56 round is about half the size of a 7.62 (just for comparison - grain wise).

Second, the M16 is a much more tempermental weapon with more complicated parts. That could very well be a reason for the large kick of the AK-47. It's an extremely simple receiver so there isn't much energy transfer. That 7.62 round is coming straight out of the buttstock, which is a piece of wood, not polymer. More rigid, larger round, and considerably less graceful could all equal more kick.

5.45mm AK/74 also has little felt recoil.

[ggyoung]

How meany of you people have fired a "7'62x54 Russian carbine WWII". This is not a 7.62x36 AK47. It is a much longer case,heaver bullit and holds more powder. They are a great rifle and in good shape make a good sniper rifle.

[CrazyBrave83]

Yeah, truthfully I don't even know why the Comparison against an AK-47 came up. More than likely because the words "Russian" and "M16a2" were said in a conversation, and since those are the big boys and the often compared, it was natural.

But yeah a Mosin-Nagant (if that's what he's using) is considerably different.

[GySgtRet]

The M-16A1 is not longer issued it is now the M-16A2. The kick can be compaired if you want to call it a kick to a .22 cal. longrifle. There isn't much the one that you mention is much more powerful.

[Wolfman07]

Yes, I am using a Mosin-Nagant. It is a an m44, made in 1944, bears the hammer and sickle, and is in great shape, bought it for less then a $100 and ammo is really cheap, 440 rounds for $59.99. I have fired an AK-47 and it is nothing compared to the m44. One down side of my rifle is the steel butt plate that kills the shoulder after a day at the range, but i still love it. Just bought a scope for it and I am installing it soon.

[greensideout]

Felt recoil of the 5.56 vs 7.62---with the 7.62 you are launching a heaver mass---"for every action there is an opposit and equal reaction".

A rifle "pushes" ---a shotgun "kicks".

The AK-47 has sloppy machining tol = will work even when dirty.
The M-16 has tighter tol = must be keap cleaner to avoid jams.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Brooklyn, if you fail to qualify in the fleet, you will be made fun of-- by everyone, and then sent back to the range to try again.

[Shrike]

First of all, friends, please stop call all of 7.62 AK rifles with "AK-47". There are not many real AK-47 around the world in fact, becouse production of it stoped since 1959. From that time only "AKM" was is in repetition work till 1974. And weapon, which iraqis are using is AKM too. And the second is simple - AKM, same as M16A2 will knock down any man without bulletproof within 300 meters range. And no one of iraqis has bulletproof. In past AKM was definitely superior for comparison with M16A1 in Vietnam becouse of bullet from M16A1 became extremly unstable after hitting any leaf or twig and heavier bullet from AKM just worked it's way. This problem was mostly fixed in M16A2.

And for nowdays, if we don't speak about fight in jungle M16A2 looks more preferable for me, because it's more lightweight, more comfortable, more powerful and accurate.

If you interested in AK-based rifles, visit this http://www.modernfirearms.net/assault/as01-e.htm

[Brooklyn]

First of all, friends, please stop call all of 7.62 AK rifles with "AK-47". There are not many real AK-47 around the world in fact, becouse production of it stoped since 1959. From that time only "AKM" was is in repetition work till 1974. And weapon, which iraqis are using is AKM too. And the second is simple - AKM, same as M16A2 will knock down any man without bulletproof within 300 meters range. And no one of iraqis has bulletproof. In past AKM was definitely superior for comparison with M16A1 in Vietnam becouse of bullet from M16A1 became extremly unstable after hitting any leaf or twig and heavier bullet from AKM just worked it's way. This problem was mostly fixed in M16A2.

And for nowdays, if we don't speak about fight in jungle M16A2 looks more preferable for me, because it's more lightweight, more comfortable, more powerful and accurate.

If you interested in AK-based rifles, visit this http://www.modernfirearms.net/assault/as01-e.htm

BAH!!! I'm rallying for the 6.88mm AR. I'm sure there are guys way more important then me that don't want those though, so oh well.

[Camper51]

Wolfman, your comparison is like comparing the kick of a .270 to a .22 There is NO apples and apples comparison. It is apples and oranges. your AK 47 fires a heavier bullet with a heavier powder...

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

I don't know how the unstable bullet in an M-16A1 could have been fixed with the A2, since it fires the same round. The jamming problems were corrected, as well as other issues (brass deflector, forward assist, etc.) but the same round is still coming out of the same (or very close to the same) barrel at about the same speed and spin.

The max effective range of the M-16 is much greater than 300 meters, so it isn't the same as an AK style rifle. Where the looser AK is limited, the M-16 is not. If you keep it clean, it is the better rifle, hands down.

[ggyoung]

You have to rember that when the M-16 1st.came out McNamra and his "wiss kids" thought they new more than stoner and did not crome the chamber as Stoner told them too. Then they started runing low on powder and they used a faster burning powder (which Stone said not to use) the problems started. Well it ended up geting a bunch of Marines killed during the Hill Fights. I lost some buddies one that one. When they desided to use a smaller bullit it was beteen the 222Remington and the 223 Remiington. The 223 won out on that one. In my way of thinking they should used the 22-250. A much better round. It has just about 2 times the range.

[Shrike]

I don't know how the unstable bullet in an M-16A1 could have been fixed with the A2, since it fires the same round. The jamming problems were corrected, as well as other issues (brass deflector, forward assist, etc.) but the same round is still coming out of the same (or very close to the same) barrel at about the same speed and spin.

My bad, off course, it's not about replacing A1 with A2 but about new rounds, there is qoute:

1977 - 1979. NATO trials lead to the adoption of the improved 5.56x45mm cartridge, developed in Belgium by FN. This cartridge, initially developed in conjunction with the FN Minimi light machine gun, featured a slightly heavier bullet with accordingly slightly lower muzzle velocity. The resulting long-range performance, however, improved due to the better ballistic coefficient of the new bullet. The SS109 required a faster rifling twist to stabilize its bullet, than the original 5.56x45mm US M193 ammunition. The M193 was used with barrels rifled with 1:12 twist (1 turn in 12 inches), and SS109 was preferred to be fired with 1:7 twist (1 turn in 7 inches). Some arms manufacturers preferred to make their guns with intermediate 1:9 rifling, which would be equally good (or bad) for both old and new loadings.


The max effective range of the M-16 is much greater than 300 meters, so it isn't the same as an AK style rifle. Where the looser AK is limited, the M-16 is not. If you keep it clean, it is the better rifle, hands down.

Most skirmishes happening within 300 meters range, in fact, but M16 is much accurate even within such range than AKM anyway.

PS I don't wont to offend any american or start "holy wars" about M16 vs. AKM, let's agree on what its both has advantages and disadvantages and main thing is who is holding this rifle, because in Vietnam any Marine took about 10 vietamees in his brave with experimental rifles :thumbup:.

[Brooklyn]

PS I don't wont to offend any american or start "holy wars" about M16 vs. AKM, let's agree on what its both has advantages and disadvantages and main thing is who is holding this rifle, because in Vietnam any Marine took about 10 vietamees in his brave with experimental rifles :thumbup:.

This is why I think we need something in between. And I say again, 6.88mm baby!!! Who wants to sign my petition??? :banana:

[Camper51]

Brooklyn..... YOU ARE A NOT A MARINE do not assume that you have a voice in changing the standard issue rifle of the Marine Corps. After you become Commandant MAYBE then you can speak for us. Until then shut your yap and stick to the subject which was regarding the kick/recoil of the M-16A2 not the size of bullet used!

[Stanley Hroszow]

Too many short fuses life is too short take it easy Marines

[Brooklyn]

Brooklyn..... YOU ARE A NOT A MARINE do not assume that you have a voice in changing the standard issue rifle of the Marine Corps. After you become Commandant MAYBE then you can speak for us. Until then shut your yap and stick to the subject which was regarding the kick/recoil of the M-16A2 not the size of bullet used!

I was just kidding, hence the little dancing smiling icon thing. I don't really have a petition.

Jokes...just jokes...

[Brooklyn]

This is why I think we need something in between. And I say again, 6.88mm baby!!! Who wants to sign my petition??? :banana:

Looking back at this I see where I may have been wrong in my wording "why I say WE need something". I apologize for that, I wasn't trying to come off as someone who has BTDT. Sorry.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Shrike, I wasn't trying to start anything with my post. I was just stating that the A1 and A2 changes would not have brought about a round that is more stable. The heavier round is what it is. The thing can still be altered by a twig or leaf, and I don't know that anything could change that.

The "AKM" as you like to call it (that won't ever catch on, even if it is right... we're just too stuborn) does have advantages over the M-16. You can throw the thing in the mud, come back six months later and it will still go bang. It is a simple weapon that anyone can be taught to use in about 15 seconds. And, you can pick one up in just about any city on the globe.

All that said, I wouldn't trade 1 black rifle for 10 of the wondergun of the Soviets. I don't like them, they don't work like I want a rifle to work. Most fights (especially in modern wars) may happen at close range. But, if I can shoot you before you can shoot me, I will always be happier.

Brooklyn, I would NEVER want a bigger round for the M-16. The bigger it is, the heavier it is. To deal with the increased pressure the gun will also get heavier. So, think about the weight difference between the 5.56 weapon and several loaded magazines compared to the larger 6.88, and I say no thanks. Of course, this comes from a person that didn't wear cheverons on a hump. They aren't tactical (and they have weight, so taking them off means you are carrying less!).

[Tallboot]

Im looking to buy a Rifle for training, I went to a gun shop and looked at some M-16's and some M-14's. I plan on dropping 1500$ for one of the M16's i didnt know they were so much. I would never buy a Ak-47 or anything like it, i want to acutally aim and shoot not spray and pray. Anything i should look for when buying a M16, i know there not like the Military M16A2's but just asking.

[Brooklyn]

Im looking to buy a Rifle for training, I went to a gun shop and looked at some M-16's and some M-14's. I plan on dropping 1500$ for one of the M16's i didnt know they were so much. I would never buy a Ak-47 or anything like it, i want to acutally aim and shoot not spray and pray. Anything i should look for when buying a M16, i know there not like the Military M16A2's but just asking.

Check out DPMS or Olympic Arms. They both have alot to offer for alot under 1500 bucks.

[Noci]

some facts that may help:

<TABLE class=infobox style="WIDTH: 20em"><TBODY><TR><TD>Type</TD><TD>Service rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_rifle)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nation(s) of origin</TD><TD>United States of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Era</TD><TD>Vietnam War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War), modern</TD></TR><TR><TH style="BACKGROUND: #ddeeee" colSpan=2>History</TH></TR><TR><TD>Date of design</TD><TD>1957</TD></TR><TR><TD>Production period</TD><TD>1960—</TD></TR><TR><TD>Service duration</TD><TD>1960–present</TD></TR><TR><TD>Operators</TD><TD>U.S., NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO), others</TD></TR><TR><TD>War service</TD><TD>Vietnam War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War), Gulf War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War), Iraq War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Variants</TD><TD>See Variants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_%28rifle%29#Variants)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Number built</TD><TD>Over 8 million</TD></TR><TR><TH style="BACKGROUND: #ddeeee" colSpan=2>Specifications</TH></TR><TR><TD>Type</TD><TD>Selective fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_fire)/Assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle) rifle</TD></TR><TR><TD>Caliber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber)</TD><TD>5.56 mm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre) (.223 in (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch))</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ammunition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammunition)</TD><TD>5.56 x 45 mm NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO), .223 Remington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Feed system</TD><TD>20 or 30-round detachable box magazine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearm%29) (see Design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_%28rifle%29#Design))</TD></TR><TR><TD>Action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_action)</TD><TD>Gas-operated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated), rotating bolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_bolt)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Length</TD><TD>1,006 mm (39.5 in)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Barrel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_barrel) length</TD><TD>508 mm (20 in)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Weight</TD><TD>See Design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_%28rifle%29#Design)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Rate of fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate_of_fire)</TD><TD>750 to 900 round/min, cyclic</TD></TR><TR><TD>Muzzle velocity</TD><TD>975 m/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre_per_second) (3,200 ft/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feet_per_second)), 884 m/s (2,900 ft/s) (see Variants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_%28rifle%29#Variants))</TD></TR><TR><TD>Effective range</TD><TD>550 m (600 yd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yard))</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[ggyoung]

Tallboot How soon are you going to bootcamp? If you are within 60-90 days I would say save your money. Why== Let the Marine Corp train you to shoot there way. It would be a lot easer for you. When I was in bootcamp we went to Camp Mathues(sp) for rifle qul. A kid in me platoon who had held a gun in his life brook the range record. The PMIs know what they are doing. They are the best.

[greensideout]

Im looking to buy a Rifle for training, I went to a gun shop and looked at some M-16's and some M-14's. I plan on dropping 1500$ for one of the M16's i didnt know they were so much. I would never buy a Ak-47 or anything like it, i want to acutally aim and shoot not spray and pray. Anything i should look for when buying a M16, i know there not like the Military M16A2's but just asking.


Make sure you get one with a 7 in 12 twist barrel. If you don't know why you should start reading more about the AR-15/"M-16" before you buy one.

[Tallboot]

I dont leave until December 15th or 28th they havent made up there mind yet. Id like to shoot just for the fun of it, and practice. Money is Money not important to me i dont have bills yet, Insurance for me is 80 a month .. anyway. I was thinking about going to a gun range in Gwinnet Georgia and see if they had any there, then just pay and use theres. Im 18 i cant buy one anyway.

[Brooklyn]

You sure? I bought my first shot gun when I was 18. Most states allow 18++ year olds to buy long guns.

[Geetar]

There is a large spring in the butt of the rifle that absorbs most of the kick. If you do an image search on Google for the internal components of the M-16 A2, you will be able to see it for yourself. Simply being gas operated does not make the rifle kick less, it merely is a way to manipulate the bolt. The spring is the magic in reducing the kick.

If girls can shoot the M-16 A2.... well then, I don't know why we have guys worried about how much it will kick.

[Parker-0321]

[QUOTE=Shrike] ... any american or start "holy wars" about ....]

Hey Shrike, please remember to capitolize America/American. That's all i wanted to say.

[Dave Coup]

Com[are a gas operated M-14 with an M-16 and you'll feel a world of difference because of the size of the partly, but mostly because of the charge behind the projectile. <br />
<br />
SF <br />
Dave

[MotivatorOfTheGuard]

How meany of you people have fired a "7'62x54 Russian carbine WWII". This is not a 7.62x36 AK47. It is a much longer case,heaver bullit and holds more powder. They are a great rifle and in good shape make a good sniper rifle.

The WWII 7.62x54 is a Moison Nagant S.I.I.R. I personally own an original 1934 Soviet Stamped Moison and those bad boys have some kick. When compared to to my AKM-47 that i own, that fires the 7.62x39, the amount of kick is considerably less. In my opinion the AK series of rifles between the model of 1947 to the AK-101 dont have bad kick at all, so when comparing the M-16A2/A4 to the AK series, its rather like shooting a BB Gun.

:usmc:

[Marine43]

Basically pat yourself on the collar bone and thats the kick...lol....easiest weapon to fire in the world....8 out of 10 in the black at 500yds....OOORAH

[USMCVet1992]

First off, for those that want to go out and buy an M16 or AR15 for "practice", why are you going to teach yourself bad habits before you get any of the training? Most right handed shooters will shoot better left handed in a controlled environment because they havent developed any bad habits with their left hand and vice versa. As a Weapons Instructor, I would not advise you to go out and start developing those bad habits with a weapon that you are not familiar with.

Second, for those that talk about the "knock down power" of an M16A2 service rifle, have you ever shot a person in combat? Just curious, because when I served, one of the primary complaints about that weapon was the lack of knock down power. Many of the guys I know now who are currently serving over there have the same complaints... Reliability and knock down power are just not there.

Finally for those who want to buy one of these weapons, if you are paying over 1000 bucks for one, I have some beach front property in Arizona for ya! If you pay over $1000, the weapon should have some furniture on it. One of mine is a Rock River Arms AR15 with the collapsible stock, red dot, white light and other items. Mine is the DEA Gov't model (civ version). Brand new almost 2 years ago, $995 without any of the accessories. You can pick these up now for around $800. Mine has NEVER jammed, and has had 1000's of rounds through it. Main point is, listen to the advise of those that have BTDT, and dont go out and develop a bunch of bad habits that your PMI is going to have to fix!
:marine:

[TylerA23]

I have a M-44 7.62x54 Russian Carbine, these things kick like a mule. I've shot a M-16, It really had no kick on it .

[oneshot649]

a Mosin carbine is probably the hardest kicker of any battle rifle in history. the m16a2 is a BB gun by comparison. hope they let me take my M1 into combat... ;-D

[MotivatorOfTheGuard]

i wish, i would take an M-1 as well. but we can't always have what we want. i would love nothing more than to send 30-06 rounds down range, but i guess we take what we can get.

[Accord]

I've got a Mosin-Nagant M44, I love shooting it but don't get to often since ammo for it is so hard to come buy, basically the only option is to buy it at a gun show where they rip you off.

[Accord]

Check out DPMS or Olympic Arms. They both have alot to offer for alot under 1500 bucks.
If you're spending $1,500, you can get a genuine Colt. DPMS and Olympic are third tier bottom feeders in the AR-15 world and if you spend more than $700 on a standard 20" AR you're getting ripped.

If you don't want to spend the money for a Colt, then get a Bushmaster or RRA. If you're on a budget then get a DPMS, but stay the hell away from OlyArms!

[TylerA23]

my ammo for my M44 is easy to find... and cheaper than the average rifle rounds.

[Barrette]

I wouldn't even go with Olympic.... My bushmaster is the best AR I've owned and I have owned quite a few right now I have a Bushmaster M4A3 I've had this new for about 3 months now I've put about 3,000 rounds through it so far and I have not had one jam yet... I shoot it at slow and rapid fire and have had no problems with it at all.. Yes I shoot alot... My exspirence with Colt has been an alright one I was the second owner of it I bought it off of a state trooper and it was good for a jam about every other time I went shooting... I had the chance to shoot the new S&W M&P 15 the other day and I was impressed with it...

[jcannedy]

Those rifles will all be obsolete when the military gets new weapons in 2008, or so thats what ive heard

[Barrette]

The only thing that is changeing is the round is becomeing a 6.8 instead of a 5.56 thats why every company is coming out with the 6.8 now...

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

When you're talking about a change in any weapon that is more than a year away, it is impossible to guess what will happen. There are always programs where people are testing new weapons, trying to correct problems and potential problems.

Truth be told, I think we pay way too much attention to the rifle. I would be happy going to war with a bunch of Marines, not matter what they are armed with. If the Corps goes back to the '03 Springfield tomorrow, they will still be the finest fighting force on earth. Personally, my personal rifle will always be a 5.56 (not .223- there is a difference) black rifle. Today, it is a Bushy, tomorrow it may be something else.