Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question

[thedrifter]

Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question <br />
By Marc Morano and Randy Hall <br />
CNSNews.com Staff <br />
January 13, 2006 <br />
<br />
Read Article About Murtha's Links to Abscam <br />
<br />
(CNSNews.com) - Having ascended to...

[thedrifter]

Murtha's Anti-War Stance Overshadows Abscam Past <br />
By Randy Hall and Marc Morano <br />
CNSNews.com Staff <br />
January 13, 2006 <br />
<br />
Read Article About Murtha's military record <br />
<br />
(CNSNews.com) - Members of the...

[yellowwing]

How long before they start rolling out stories that Murtha hates America?

[hrscowboy]

oh no this dont sound good...

[thedrifter]

MURTHA: VAST MAJORITY OF U.S. TROOPS WILL BE OUT OF IRAQ BY END OF YEAR
Fri Jan 13 2006 17:14:15 ET
Drudge Report

Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.) believes the vast majority of U.S. troops in Iraq will be out by the end of the year and maybe even sooner. In his boldest words yet on the subject, the outspoken critic of the war predicts the withdrawal and tells Mike Wallace why he thinks the Bush administration will do it. The interview, a portion of which will appear on tonight's (13) CBS EVENING NEWS, will be broadcast on 60 MINUTES Sunday Jan. 15 (7:00-8:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network.

"I think the vast majority will be out by the end of the year and I'm hopeful it will be sooner than that," Murtha tells Wallace, in the 60 MINUTES interview.

"You're going to see a plan for withdrawal," says Murtha, which he believes Congress will pass because of mounting pressure from constituents tired of the war that could affect the upcoming midterm elections. The political situation will force President Bush to accede to Congress, he says. "I think the political people who give [the president] advice will say to him, 'You donÕt want a democratic Congress. You want to keep a republican majority, and the only way you're going to keep it is by reducing substantially the troops in Iraq,'" Murtha says.

The president has said publicly that any decision regarding Iraq would be based on the situation there and not on Washington politics.

Murtha rejects the president's argument that the war on terror is being fought in Iraq. "The insurgents are Iraqis - 93 percent of the insurgents are Iraqis. A very small percentage are foreign fighters.... Once we're out of there, [Iraqis] will eliminate [foreign fighters]," says Murtha. "[President Bush] is trying to fight this war with rhetoric. Iraq is not where the center of terrorism is," he says. "We're inciting terrorism there.... We're destabilizing the area by being over there because we're the targets," Murtha tells Wallace.

When Wallace challenges him by saying, "General Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, says your comments are damaging recruiting and hurting the troops," Murtha responds by saying it's the military's own fault. "[Troops] are rotated [into Iraq] four and five times. They have no clear mission," says Murtha. "One of the problems they have with recruitment is [that] they continually say how well things are going and the troops on the ground know better."

President Bush has said there are only two choices in Iraq: victory and defeat. And he has implied that Murtha is a "defeatist." Murtha, of course, disputes that.

There have been 13 servicemen from his Congressional district killed in Iraq. Could the families of those dead be offended? Wallace asks. "Well, I hope [those families] understand," says the Vietnam combat veteran. "It's my job, my responsibility to speak out when I disagree with the policy of the president of the United States," says Murtha. "All of us want this president to succeed... I feel a mission here, with my experience, that I have to help the president find a way out of this thing."

Developing...

Ellie

[OLE SARG]

murtha ranks right up there with kerry who ranks as whale**** with me. I didn't realize or know that murtha refused to disclose his military records - sounds fishy, or kerry, to me. murtha blows a lot of hot air but all he has to do is disclose his military records and the big hub-bub would be over. Has he got something to hide, like kerry who has never disclosed his military records probably for good reason? Makes one wonder, doesn't it??????

SEMPER FI,
OLE SARG

[ivalis]

still waiting on president monkey pants military record, oh, that's right, they got shredded.

[greensideout]

I guess that if you can't make it on your own merits you attack another's record, right or wrong. Marines have displayed Valor in combat and received nothing more then the "well done" comment. The way it is. Much is expected from Marines. This guy was in the Army and is passing judgement on a Marine. Someone needs to tell him to step down.

[MillRatUSMC]

Whois Cybercast News Service?
And who stands to gain with this release?
Also do we review everybody Purple Heart or Purple Hearts if there is more than one award and it, isn't obivious why a person was awarded a Purple Heart?
I get the feeling this smites of trying to silence Rep/Colonel John Murtha.
Everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion.
I read another point of view Thursday, at the VA, it was in a special edition or pull out of News Week magazine, it was written by a 1st Lt of Marines, who served in Afghanistan and Iraq.
He written a book on his service, what makes this officer different, he was from one of those Ivy Leaque schools.
Some of his friends and fellow students, thought he was wasting his education by becoming a Marine officer.
Yet, he states that he had to make decisions that the State Department should have made.
He calls for a draw back, not a pull out.
Because setting a date, they know they will just have to wait us out, till we're gone.
makes sense to me.
So like I said everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion.
We just have to weight each on it's own merit...

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[OLE SARG]

My take on this whole thing is!!!!!! If you are a public figure you should be required to disclose your military record (some don't, i.e., jane fonda kerry). If you have nothing to be ashamed of...

[Wyoming]

Totally agree!!!

[Ed Palmer]

According to these stories I also rate a purple heart cause when I was in khe san, charlie blew up a head and some of the crapnel landed on me!!
Does that qualify me for it?

[lovdog]

I hear what you all are saying - disclosure is the only rememdy for whether someone is truthful about his service record. All of us that were privy to combat know of those that received awards and citations that were not deserving of them. I was always led to believe that a "true" Marine would not accept a medal if not deserving. (example) A bronze star was awarded to a Captain for meritorius "administration duty"!! We had two enlisted men that moved a burning A6 Intruder loaded with 28 - 500# bombs away from the other loaded planes - probably saved quite a few lives in the process, while risking their own - and all they got was a bronze star!! Which one was deserving?? I guess its up to the Powers that may be" to make those decisions. I totally agree that a person's service record should be public knowledge. Any writeup on the CMH is public record, why shouldn't other records of awards or citations also be treated the same, unless one has something to "hide"??? Maybe Congressman Murtha or Congressman Kerry aren't so proud of their records?? But, lets not forget "Humility" !! Yes, thats it!! They are too damn proud of their records to let "us" public see what our military "elite" really did!! I'm from PA, but don't blame me - I didn't vote for Murtha!!! Didn't vote for Kerry either!! You guessed it, I'm a Republican.
By the way - No Ed - you don't get a purple heart for getting hit by a bunch of crap - if that was the case, they would have run out of purple hearts and toilet paper along time ago.

[kbrown22]

I noticed earlier in this thread that it didn't matter that Murtha had to "ask" for his Purple Hearts. Last time I heard, you don't have to "ask" for the PH you're "given/awarded the medal. This whole thing revolves around his integrity. Any of you reading this knows that one of the worst things you can do as a Marine is lie or wear ribbons/medals that you don't deserve. I've been out quite a while but from what I remember it is an Article 32 offense to wear ribbons/medals you don't rate. The bottom line on Murtha for me is this. This son of a ***** threw those young Marines from Kilo Company under the bus before he really knew anything. We all know that in the Corps you are guilty until proven innocent, just the way it is. I would have expected him to wait and then make his comments either way. If those Marines did what they are accused of, they should be punished, just don't try them in the media for your politcial gain. Jack Murtha is an EX-Marine to every FORMER Marine I have spoken to about this. He has definitely forgot where he came from..

K. Brown
:evilgrin:

[outlaw3179]

Most Marines dont want to get a purple heart......and Murtha is asking for them ...geeeeeezzz.....wow what a great guy. I like how when anyone asks him about it he immediatly changes the subject with something about the "brave men and women blah blah blah blah" ....answer the question turd.

[marinegreen]

Murtha is nothing more then afterbirth,calling him a turd is to good for him.

[d c taveapont]

its been awhile since i posted here but........Hell lets check everyones DD-214....But what gets me is who was it that signed off on Murthas awards...surely someone has to know....and yet NO one complained since he got into office....Until now....

[marinegreen]

Office poggies can be bought !!!

[Ironrider]

I'm just disgusted, that he has turned his back to his Brothers...It's been almost 30 years since I reported to boot camp. And I would never, EVER turn my back on my Brothers and Sisters the way Murtha has. He's forgotten to be a Marine, and become a politician. :mad:

[d c taveapont]

we all have different views about Murtha....i myself see him as a Marine who cares about the troops in harms way...if he didn't care he wouldn't be speaking out as so...he was a Marine and i won't turn my back on him...nor would i to any other Marine...

[OLE SARG]

d c,
It would be nice if the loudmouth, s#$%head would SPEAK the truth. He kinda fits the mold of ms kerry - someone earlier spoke of someone having to sign off on awards - ms kerry wrote her own citations for all her awards - oh by the way ms kerry was in Vietnam. He (ms murtha) has thrown our fellow Marines under the bus by his loudmouth, psuedo-intellectual rhetoric and I am sick of him. I won't turn my back on a fellow Marine also but he deserves to be turned on. He is a disgrace to our Country just like ms kerry, ms kennedy, ms durbin, dirty harry, etc.
I guess you agree with ms murtha loudmouth antics - you have your opinion - I HAVE MINE!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[d c taveapont]

i'm not here to cause shaitt or riff between Marines....but words are words....like i said. Murtha is and was a Marine..."we are NOT into Nation Building"....i guess our troops are dying for that lie....isn't that what the POTUS said...Right!...a question for you Sarg...What happens if and when we leave and Iraq reverts by to its former self.....Would it have been worth the lives lost...

[mikegusmc]

Here is my 2 cents......

Murtha is an Ex Marine. Anyone who would shoot his mouth off and say that Marines committed murder without any proof is a piece of sh*t. I cannot believe any Marine would back this **** bird. But hey I guess it will all come out in the open soon and the whole nation will get to see what a piece Murtha is.


I say we get his ass (Murtha) on the grinder and PT this fatbody!!!

[d c taveapont]

where did i say that i was backing Murtha....

[mikegusmc]

the comment about him caring for Marines and that you would not turn your back on him. And as far as I am concerned He did turn his back on the Marines accused of Murder.

[OLE SARG]

If we take the ms murtha/ms kerry mentality and CUT AND RUN, we will have the blood of millions on our hands (JUST LIKE VIETNAM). We did the johnson two-step in Vietnam and once we left the NVA came in and murdered millions of people that had helped us. The same damn thing will happen in Iraq if we do the fatbody murtha/lurch two-step and CUT AND RUN.
In my opinion, don't use Marine and murtha in the same sentence. The fatbody is NOT a Marine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[Camper51]

i'm not here to cause shaitt or riff between Marines....but words are words....like i said. Murtha is and was a Marine..."we are NOT into Nation Building"....i guess our troops are dying for that lie....isn't that what the POTUS said...Right!...a question for you Sarg...What happens if and when we leave and Iraq reverts by to its former self.....Would it have been worth the lives lost...

And just when do we leave??? and how long will it take for the Iraqis to "not revert" to their former selves??????????

[d c taveapont]

"cut and run.....bull crap".....heres some news for you Sarg...in every war that is fought. the ones that fought against the invaders are almost always killed....history does repeat its self...

[OLE SARG]

d c,
I'm not sure I understand your post. I'm not advocating "cut and run" like ms kerry. I think in time we'll be able to withdraw when Iraq's military can handle the job. History doesn't always repeat itself............

SEMPER FI,

[Shadowman777]

Hell lets check everyones DD-214....

I'm game. Are you?

[Shadowman777]

In my opinion, don't use Marine and murtha in the same sentence. The fatbody is NOT a Marine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

LOL - This place would not be the same without you Sarge. Ugh - my sides hurt from laughing!

[d c taveapont]

Shadowman Hell yeah....I have nothing too hide.....Hell. i'm still in contact with my sqd leaders who were in RVN with me...Theres nothing like having withnesses.....

[RLeon]

Originally Posted by d c taveapont
Hell lets check everyones DD-214....


I'm game. Are you?

Count me in. :marine:

[Shadowman777]

Shadowman Hell yeah....I have nothing too hide.....Hell. i'm still in contact with my sqd leaders who were in RVN with me...Theres nothing like having withnesses.....

Very cool! Only problem is my DD-214 is pretty old.

Is possible to email a DD-214 written on papyrus paper? I mean I still keep mine in the standard Marine issue earthen vessel, deep in my backyard cave.

I'm just saying ...

[greensideout]

I think in time we'll be able to withdraw when Iraq's military can handle the job.

SEMPER FI,


There-in lies the problem. Iraq's military is and will be a PART of the problem.
How about a clue---"Islam".

[yellowwing]

Crud. I support politically a transition of military duties to the 'New and Improved' Iraqi Army. But I as a Marine I want them to be able to meet the latest threats.

I don't see that now. Fighting the insurgents, they could maybe handle. A group army invasion from Iran? Dicey at best.

[Shadowman777]

Crud. I support politically a transition of military duties to the 'New and Improved' Iraqi Army. But I as a Marine I want them to be able to meet the latest threats.

I don't see that now. Fighting the insurgents, they could maybe handle. A group army invasion from Iran? Dicey at best.

That is why we keep a fighting force over there - same as Germany (61 years) - same as Japan (61 years) - same as Korea (51 years).

Let the Iraqis police their own people, and we should not b!tch too much about *how* they do it.

We are AMERICANS because we fought, bled and died for our freedom. We set ourselves free. Trying to teach freedom without sacrifice of self, is much more difficult. History is replete with such examples.

One only need look to America for a prime example. Be warned, this will be controversial. We fought a civil war over slavery - which ended with the white man setting the black man free. But there is a slave mentality that still exists today within the black community, because the black man did not set himself free - rather it was given to him.

I am fearful that the Iraqis will be the same - as America set them free - instead of the Iraqis setting themselves free. They must learn freedom comes at a personal cost to self. This is not easily taught. It comes with bloodshed and personal sacrifice.

I am not hard and fast in this belief, and could be wrong. It's just how I see things.

Just my thoughts -

[d c taveapont]

Controversial!!!!!! We are still fighting for our freedom here.....fighting against Racism...Bigotry...When the......" Leave no child behind "...budget was cut.........The Native American Indians Educational budget was cut....Among others...and yet it says that That all men are created equal....ya could have fooled me....

[Shadowman777]

Controversial!!!!!! We are still fighting for our freedom here.....fighting against Racism...Bigotry...When the......" Leave no child behind "...budget was cut.........The Native American Indians Educational budget was cut....Among others...and yet it says that That all men are created equal....ya could have fooled me....

WAHHH! You whine like an Army-puke. Grow a pair already.

The government didn't give me enuff, my state did not give me enuff, there is too much bigotry ... Wah-wah-wah!

Buck up, grow a pair, and teach your own damn children. I could give a rats ass whether the government gave a penny for my children. **I** will teach my own children in the way they should go.

Quit sucklng off the government tit already.

[greensideout]

Crud. I support politically a transition of military duties to the 'New and Improved' Iraqi Army. But I as a Marine I want them to be able to meet the latest threats.

I don't see that now. Fighting the insurgents, they could maybe handle. A group army invasion from Iran? Dicey at best.


Surely you jest! I would trust the "New and Improved" (as you put it) Iraqi Army to guard the perimeter as much as we trusted the "Well Trained" RVN Army to cover our six. If the threat was from the west I would expect that at their prayer time they would all be shot in the a$$.

[d c taveapont]

nice there shadow.....I am only speaking about what my grand children will have to face in the future....for their EDUCATION....." before you go telling me to grow a pair....."You Better Walk it. as well as you talk it......." and in your case...I don't think that you can....

[Shadowman777]

nice there shadow.....I am only speaking about what my grand children will have to face in the future....for their EDUCATION....." before you go telling me to grow a pair....."You Better Walk it. as well as you talk it......." and in your case...I don't think that you can....

One has to wonder how America even survived. Our first schools only had one book - the Bible. Yet they were able to read and do math better then kids today. If you want your kids and your grandkids to know how to read - YOU TEACH THEM!

My son (who is in the Corps) and my daughter - were both able to read and do addition before they ever entered Kindergarden. My son could add 5 digit numbers. And ya wanna know why? I *taught* them!

You are an American Indian. So what? That and $1 will buy you a cup of coffee. And don't be whining about rascism and bigotry. You have a "victim" mentality - and as long as you cling to it, you will always see yourself as being wronged by someone or something. When I say grow a pair, it means shake off that nonsense, and quit blaming society for all your problems.

Too harsh?

[d c taveapont]

We have been "Victims"...and still are.....its easy to NOT see what others have been through...Until one has walked in their shoes...and brother you wouldn't have wanted to be in mine..example...in Vietnam...some didn't l;ike the fact that I. as a Indian was a team leader....all that i had to say was..."sin-loi".....any way..not to get to envolved with this ....(by the way...my three children have Graduated from a Public School System...So i know what it takes to raise children....)

[10thzodiac]

There are victims, case in point: Out of all the ethnicities in Britain blacks are the most likely to become successful. Britain never permitted slavery where America did; an example of cause and effect, anyone care to speculate otherwise?

[Shadowman777]

We have been "Victims"...and still are.....its easy to NOT see what others have been through...Until one has walked in their shoes...and brother you wouldn't have wanted to be in mine..example...in Vietnam...some didn't l;ike the fact that I. as a Indian was a team leader

There are all kinds of "victims" everywhere in the world. You don't have carte-blanche just because you are an indian, or black or hispanic. There will always be rascism and bigotry as long as man walks the earth. Hell - even within Spanish communities it exists. My daughter works with 2 girls of spanish decent - one Cuban and the other from Spain. They insult each other by calling the other one "Mexican."

It is what it is. The only question that remains is - will you pass the "victim mentality" onto your children, and they onto their children - or will it end? WHO will be the FIRST to stop it? My own mother had every right to claim victimhood, and she chose not to pollute her children with it, and it was stopped butt cold. I am 48 years old, and just found out about it in the last 2 years.

I would counsel you to lose that crap, but if it keeps you warm and comfy at night - knock yourself out.

[Shadowman777]

There are victims, case in point: Out of all the ethnicities in Britain blacks are the most likely to become successful. Britain never permitted slavery where America did; an example of cause and effect, anyone care to speculate otherwise?

The British are not so innocent! Consider the following:

Timeline.

1640-1680

Beginning of large-scale introduction of African slave labour in the British Caribbean for sugar production.
1807

Abolition of the Slave Trade Act was passed by the British Parliament of Parliament on 25th March 1807. It outlawed the slave trade within the British Empire. A passionate speech by Lord Greenville stated that the slave trade was "contrary to the principles of justice, humanity and sound policy" and admonished his fellow parliamentarians for "not having abolished the trade long ago".
The Act was carried in the House of Lords by 41 votes to 20 and the House of Commons by 114 to 15.
Any British captain who was caught transporting slaves was fined £100 for every slave found on board ship. However, this law did not stop the British slave trade. If slave-ships were in danger of being captured by the British navy, captains often reduced the fines they had to pay by ordering the slaves to be thrown into the sea.
1827

Britain declares slave trading piracy, thus punishable by death.
1833

The Slavery Abolition Act was passed by the British Parliament on 24th August 1833. The Act did not become law until 1st August 1834 when all slaves in the British colonies were to become emancipated, and slavery was to be abolished throughout the British possessions abroad. This date is remembered and celebrated as a Public Holiday called "Emancipation Day" in St. Kitts and Nevis and most of the ex-British colonies in the Caribbean.
Two measures were brought in to soften the economic blow to the Plantation Owners:
The first was the 5 year apprenticeship system.
The second was that the British government paid compensation to the slave owners. The amount involved depended on the number of slaves held. One example was the Bishop of Exeter's 665 slaves resulted in him receiving £12,700.

[greensideout]

Let's see now---where were we at on this thread---lol. Oh ya, Murtha the "Hero"? It seems to me that a person is showing some weakness to have to go back in their history to show that they are worthy to seek office. I agree with Old Sarg---Murtha/Kerry---same-o.

[Shadowman777]

Let's see now---where were we at on this thread---lol. Oh ya, Murtha the "Hero"? It seems to me that a person is showing some weakness to have to go back in their history to show that they are worthy to seek office. I agree with Old Sarg---Murtha/Kerry---same-o.

There was a thread? Oh yeah! Murtha - worthless piece of crap!

(Don't ya just hate people who hijack threads? Sheesh!)

Which forum are we on again - because I'd like to say Murtha is a worthless piece of sh!t!

[greensideout]

There was a thread? Oh yeah! Murtha - worthless piece of crap!

(Don't ya just hate people who hijack threads? Sheesh!)

Which forum are we on again - because I'd like to say Murtha is a worthless piece of sh!t!


LMAO---Carry on Marine.

[yellowwing]

d c taveapont and Shadowman777, I strongly suggest that you two take your line of discussion into Private Messages.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled Murtha Show...

[Shadowman777]

d c taveapont and Shadowman777, I strongly suggest that you two take your line of discussion into Private Messages.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled Murtha Show...

I am done with it - whatever it was previous ...

Have a said that Murtha is a worthless piece of crap yet? A.D.D ya know!

I blame the HE ordnance I built up. Can I get money for that now? Don't answer as I won't remember tomorrow.

[d c taveapont]

Nothing but Love here..Yellowwing......But i must say...."I will NOT turn my back on a Fellow Marine. whos tour in RVN was before mine....if Murtha is wrong...Then time will tell...and if he is right....Like i said...I stand behind him...as a Marine..."

[RLeon]

Why don't we all send Murtha a nice letter telling him to Shut the heck up.

[10thzodiac]

The British are not so innocent! Consider the following:

Timeline.

1640-1680

Beginning of large-scale introduction of African slave labour in the British Caribbean for sugar production.
1807

Abolition of the Slave Trade Act was passed by the British Parliament of Parliament on 25th March 1807. It outlawed the slave trade within the British Empire. A passionate speech by Lord Greenville stated that the slave trade was "contrary to the principles of justice, humanity and sound policy" and admonished his fellow parliamentarians for "not having abolished the trade long ago".
The Act was carried in the House of Lords by 41 votes to 20 and the House of Commons by 114 to 15.
Any British captain who was caught transporting slaves was fined £100 for every slave found on board ship. However, this law did not stop the British slave trade. If slave-ships were in danger of being captured by the British navy, captains often reduced the fines they had to pay by ordering the slaves to be thrown into the sea.
1827

Britain declares slave trading piracy, thus punishable by death.
1833

The Slavery Abolition Actwas passed by the British Parliament on 24th August 1833. The Act did not become law until 1st August 1834 when all slaves in the British colonies were to become emancipated, and slavery was to be abolished throughout the British possessions abroad. This date is remembered and celebrated as a Public Holiday called "Emancipation Day" in St. Kitts and Nevis and most of the ex-British colonies in the Caribbean.
Two measures were brought in to soften the economic blow to the Plantation Owners:
The first was the 5 year apprenticeship system.
The second was that the British government paid compensation to the slave owners. The amount involved depended on the number of slaves held. One example was the Bishop of Exeter's 665 slaves resulted in him receiving £12,700.


I stand corrected: Black Slaves in Britain went to court to get their freedom. By the early 1800s most judges set the slaves free. From what I gather most of the black slaves in Britain at that time were household slaves for the wealthy, maybe thats the one up on the other slaves in the empire? In America it was not till the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 and the Thirteenth Amendment in 1865. George Washington had 500 slaves and his White House cook Ulysses freed himself, he ran off never to be found...George looked for him too...

[fontman]

They're their own worst enemies: See Murtha, Times self-destruct
By Virginia Buckingham
Boston Herald Columnist
Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - Updated: 02:26 AM EST

Prosecute The New York Times and censure Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.)? I have a better idea: Sit back and watch them self-destruct.

Murtha and The New York Times have done more to aid the fight for Republicans to retain their House and Senate majorities in the last couple of days than Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman could possibly do all year.

But no one, not even the guys who are so devoted to the GOP that they wear elephants on their ties, should be cheering.

What has been lost by Murtha's rantings and the Times' irresponsibility can never be regained by electoral victory in the fall. But nor will they regain what they have lost by their own words and actions - the moral high ground.

Let's start with the Times.

We are less safe today from terrorist attack than we were before the Times disclosed the existence of the National Security Agency's terrorist surveillance program.

We are more in danger today because The New York Times and other outlets disclosed that American intelligence has access to foreign banking transactions.

Combined, these two programs gave American officials tools they did not have before Sept. 11 to track and disrupt terrorist plots before thousands die.

By the Times' own admission, the "penetration" into international banking networks helped track down the Bali bombers.

How many more innocent young lives were saved, as a result, from a similar fate in other discos in other terrorist strongholds or, as possible, in a nightclub in New York?

Before the Times revealed the two security programs, literally in black and white, al-Qaeda and its allies did not know, could no know for sure, how best to avoid detection.

They know now.

Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.), no Bush administration-toadie he, said it best: "Nobody elected The New York Times to do anything. The New York Times is putting its own arrogant, elitist, left-wing agenda before the interests of the American people. The time has come for the American people to realize and The New York Times to realize we're at war and they can't be just on their own deciding what to declassify, what to release."

But they did exactly that, in violation of the law. Yet, prosecuting them will allow publisher Bill Keller and his Democratic defenders to change the subject from their disregard for American safety to their stewardship of the First Amendment. The Bush administration ought to keep this escape hatch firmly closed.

And Murtha?

The damage done by this self-proclaimed and much acclaimed moral authority on the Iraq war is far less quantifiable.

Did Murtha bring a smile to al-Qaeda leaders' faces when they read his remarks over the weekend that America has "become the enemy" in Iraq?

What must Kim Jong-Il and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad think of America's seriousness when a Democratic leader says with a straight face that our nation "is more dangerous to world peace than nuclear threats from North Korea or Iran?"

I've no doubt most Americans respect Murtha's valor in Vietnam.

Surely many respect yet disagree with his position on immediate troop withdrawal.

But Americans are united on this: We're not infallible, but we are not part of the axis of evil. America is the greatest country on Earth.

A political party and its advocates in the media who forget that will be reminded this November.

Enjoy the show.

[Shadowman777]

I stand corrected: Black Slaves in Britain went to court to get their freedom. By the early 1800s most judges set the slaves free. From what I gather most of the black slaves in Britain at that time were household slaves for the wealthy, maybe thats the one up on the other slaves in the empire? In America it was not till the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 and the Thirteenth Amendment in 1865. George Washington had 500 slaves and his White House cook Ulysses freed himself, he ran off never to be found...George looked for him too...


And then there's this Murtha guy. What a dirt bag!

[10thzodiac]

"The dangerous patriot...drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions." Colonel James A. Donavan, U.S. Marine Corps

Should a good son warn his mother of a cliff before she has fallen?

[Shadowman777]

"The dangerous patriot...drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions." Colonel James A. Donavan, U.S. Marine Corps

Should a good son warn his mother of a cliff before she has fallen?

"As the ass barketh after the bean, so the bubble doth stink the bath." CPL St. Eve

(I have no no idea what that means - I got thought a quote would be nice here - as I have no idea what the other one means ...)

[mikegusmc]

I'm with you Shadow... Back to Murtha... I say we take him back to PI..... land of sand fleas and PT his FAT DISGUSTING MAGOTT ASS!!!!!

[fontman]

Murtha and inducements <br />
TODAY'S EDITORIAL <br />
The Washington Times <br />
June 28, 2006 <br />
<br />
The sound you hear is the sound of election-conscious Democrats tiptoeing away from Rep. John Murtha. As they once...

[10thzodiac]

When you're wounded and left on <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:pAfghanistan</ST1:p</st1:country-region>'s plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier. ~ Rudyard Kipling<O:p

The more things change the more they remain the same...first your father, then you, then your son, then your grandson...gwad speed

[RLeon]

When you're wounded and left on <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:pAfghanistan</ST1:p</st1:country-region>'s plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier. ~ Rudyard Kipling<O:p

The more things change the more they remain the same...first your father, then you, then your son, then your grandson...gwad speed
From your quotes, your sig, and your profile I see you a Butler disciple.
I get your "War is a Racket" point. Yeah he warned us of such things happening but the fact remains that for whatever reason you want to believe we are in this thing and we need to finish it successfully, Murtha's not helping any.
Maybe if we had more support from our fellow Americans instead of so much dissent we could end this thin sooner and bring everyone home.

[d c taveapont]

some where there is a iraqi reading this site and smiling like a shait eating dog....."the Americans are attacking their own...."

[Shadowman777]

some where there is a iraqi reading this site and smiling like a shait eating dog....."the Americans are attacking their own...."

Get serious now.

Iraqis can't read!

[Shadowman777]

“See that our Congress writes into law a command that no American soldier, sailor or Marine be used for any purpose except to protect the coastline of the United States, and protect his home ..."

Major General Smedley Butler - United States Marine Corps died at Naval Hospital, Philadelphia, June 21, 1940.The article you quote was written in 1935.

There were no nuclear weapons at that time. There were no rockets, nor ICBMs.

Until we perfect a means of shooting down ICBMs, cruise missles and other delivery systems with 100% reliability, we will be forced outside our own borders.

[RLeon]

some where there is a iraqi reading this site and smiling like a shait eating dog....."the Americans are attacking their own...."

Nope, the Iraqi doesn't have to read, just watch the new and see our reps like Murtha and Kerry.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal Colonel Bui Tin who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam said they got their a$$es handed to them, that

[B]Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?[B/]
It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

[10thzodiac]

“See that our Congress writes into law a command that no American soldier, sailor or Marine be used for any purpose except to protect the coastline of the United States, and protect his home ..."






Major General Smedley Butler - United States Marine Corps died at Naval Hospital, Philadelphia, June 21, 1940.The article you quote was written in 1935.

There were no nuclear weapons at that time. There were no rockets, nor ICBMs.

Until we perfect a means of shooting down ICBMs, cruise missles and other delivery systems with 100% reliability, we will be forced outside our own borders.


I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these [Third World] nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the "haves" refuse to share with the "have-nots" by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don't want and above all don't want crammed down their throats by Americans." ~ General David Shoup 1966 [Former United States Marine Commandant ]

With all due respect: How by going outside our boarders with troops will make us safe from the Russian, Chinese, Korean and Iranian missiles? We only spend 10 % of our defense budget at home and 70 % on military contingencies abroad. Just think if we spent 70% on defense for home, maybe we would have those missile-to-missile interceptors?
<O:p
SF<O:p

[greensideout]

I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these [Third World] nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the "haves" refuse to share with the "have-nots" by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don't want and above all don't want crammed down their throats by Americans." ~ General David Shoup 1966 [Former United States Marine Commandant ]


10thzodiac, It looks like we both served about the same time under General Shoup. I was in platoon 371 in boot.

[Shadowman777]

I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these [Third World] nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the "haves" refuse to share with the "have-nots" by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don't want and above all don't want crammed down their throats by Americans." ~ General David Shoup 1966 [Former United States Marine Commandant ]

See - now you are sounding like Murtha. America is evil, America is rotten, America brings violence on its own head because America has "dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers."

Question: If you hate America that much, and believe America to be that evil - why haven't you moved to France yet? France should be a utopia for you.

I do not believe America is totally without fault, though my reasons for this belief you would totally disagree with.

Side note 1: Correct quotations would be nice. Like the above quote and in your signature, one cannot tell where you begin a quote, and where you interject your opinion. Your quote from Smedley makes it appear that he condemns the Iraq war, as your punctuation is faulty.

Side note 2: Quotations do not always give the context of the *quoted" statement, and can be pulled out of context. Case in point: The Bible says, "there is no God." In context, the Bible says, "The FOOL saith there is no God."

[yellowwing]

You hate America...blah-blah-blah...60% of the people that we have sworn to defend think that something is wrong. 10% still have no clue.

Thank God we are not that 10%.

[10thzodiac]

See - now you are sounding like Murtha. America is evil, America is rotten, America brings violence on its own head because America has "dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers."

Question: If you hate America that much, and believe America to be that evil - why haven't you moved to France yet? France should be a utopia for you.

I do not believe America is totally without fault, though my reasons for this belief you would totally disagree with.

Side note 1: Correct quotations would be nice. Like the above quote and in your signature, one cannot tell where you begin a quote, and where you interject your opinion. Your quote from Smedley makes it appear that he condemns the Iraq war, as your punctuation is faulty.

Side note 2: Quotations do not always give the context of the *quoted" statement, and can be pulled out of context. Case in point: The Bible says, "there is no God." In context, the Bible says, "The FOOL saith there is no God."

Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. He might start thinking he knows what's right for you!<O:p

[yellowwing]

The Boss just might be wrong. Its not the first time a Marine Veteran has said such a thing.

[10thzodiac]

With all due respect: How by going outside our boarders with troops will make us safe from the Russian, Chinese, Korean and Iranian missiles? We only spend 10 % of our defense budget at home and 70 % on military contingencies abroad. Just think if we spent 70% on defense for home, maybe we would have those missile-to-missile interceptors?

[marinegreen]

With all due respect: How by going outside our boarders with troops will make us safe from the Russian, Chinese, Korean and Iranian missiles? We only spend 10 % of our defense budget at home and 70 % on military contingencies abroad. Just think if we spent 70% on defense for home, maybe we would have those missile-to-missile interceptors?



You wont see shadow back on until tonite,he's climbing poles all day

[Shadowman777]

You wont see shadow back on until tonite,he's climbing poles all day

Ouch - yes - and my back is killing me. More later - need to chill ...

[Shadowman777]

Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. He might start thinking he knows what's right for you!<O:p

OK - I am back in my body now - ready to teach the unlearned, and bring bring reasoning to those devoid of understanding.

Of course I know what is best for you Zodiac, and I would be remiss in not sharing it, because life is good - when you me.

[Shadowman777]

With all due respect: How by going outside our boarders with troops will make us safe from the Russian, Chinese, Korean and Iranian missiles? We only spend 10 % of our defense budget at home and 70 % on military contingencies abroad. Just think if we spent 70% on defense for home, maybe we would have those missile-to-missile interceptors?

Would not Smedley's quote also include air power leaving our borders - including Naval Forces and Aircraft carriers? Why have a Navy at all? The Coast Guard could handle the 3-5 miles of water past our coastlines. No need for Aircraft carriers, since any land based air base would suffice.

Should we also scrap our strategic long range bombers that carry nukes? We are not going to use nukes on our own soil, and in your world, military men should NOT go into battle beyond our borders.

While we are at it, Attack Subs should be axed, and certainly Boomers as well (they are the submarines that carry nuclear missiles). Subs would be useless only 3-5 miles off our coastline.

And why is there even a "Marine" Corps? Are "Marines" to be used to do beach landings on Hawaii?? I mean we have to stay within our borders - and defend them alone right???

You are mired in the thinking of the 1930's. The examples above are just the logical conclusion of that thinking. No Navy, no Marine Corps, not long range bombers. I sure there are more examples, but I think these suffice.

[Shadowman777]

The Boss just might be wrong. Its not the first time a Marine Veteran has said such a thing.

I have no idea what you are talking about. More info please.

[10thzodiac]

"There are three things guaranteed in life, Death, Taxes and a Backache"-- GW Bush </O:p

Shadowman777 take care of that back

I have two compression fractures in my back

10thZodiac

SF<O:p
<O:p

[yellowwing]

I have no idea what you are talking about. More info please.
Oh Geez, NOW you ask me? It made perfect sense the other night.

[Shadowman777]

Oh Geez, NOW you ask me? It made perfect sense the other night.

LOL - no worries! I sent one to RangeCoach, and the next day, after I read what I wrote, had no idea what the hell I was talking about!!!

Still don't to this day!

[10thzodiac]

Would not Smedley's quote also include air power leaving our borders - including Naval Forces and Aircraft carriers? Why have a Navy at all? The Coast Guard could handle the 3-5 miles of water past our coastlines. No need for Aircraft carriers, since any land based air base would suffice.

Should we also scrap our strategic long range bombers that carry nukes? We are not going to use nukes on our own soil, and in your world, military men should NOT go into battle beyond our borders.

While we are at it, Attack Subs should be axed, and certainly Boomers as well (they are the submarines that carry nuclear missiles). Subs would be useless only 3-5 miles off our coastline.

And why is there even a "Marine" Corps? Are "Marines" to be used to do beach landings on Hawaii?? I mean we have to stay within our borders - and defend them alone right???

You are mired in the thinking of the 1930's. The examples above are just the logical conclusion of that thinking. No Navy, no Marine Corps, not long range bombers. I sure there are more examples, but I think these suffice.
CHAPTER FOUR



HOW TO SMASH THIS RACKET!


WELL, it's a racket, all right.
A few profit – and the many pay. But there is a way to stop it. You can't end it by disarmament conferences. You can't eliminate it by peace parleys at Geneva. Well-meaning but impractical groups can't wipe it out by resolutions. It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war.
The only way to smash this racket is to conscript capital and industry and labor before the nations manhood can be conscripted. One month before the Government can conscript the young men of the nation – it must conscript capital and industry and labor. Let the officers and the directors and the high-powered executives of our armament factories and our munitions makers and our shipbuilders and our airplane builders and the manufacturers of all the other things that provide profit in war time as well as the bankers and the speculators, be conscripted – to get $30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get.
Let the workers in these plants get the same wages – all the workers, all presidents, all executives, all directors, all managers, all bankers –
yes, and all generals and all admirals and all officers and all politicians and all government office holders – everyone in the nation be restricted to a total monthly income not to exceed that paid to the soldier in the trenches!
Let all these kings and tycoons and masters of business and all those workers in industry and all our senators and governors and majors pay half of their monthly $30 wage to their families and pay war risk insurance and buy Liberty Bonds.
Why shouldn't they?
They aren't running any risk of being killed or of having their bodies mangled or their minds shattered. They aren't sleeping in muddy trenches. They aren't hungry. The soldiers are!
Give capital and industry and labor thirty days to think it over and you will find, by that time, there will be no war. That will smash the war racket – that and nothing else.
Maybe I am a little too optimistic. Capital still has some say. So capital won't permit the taking of the profit out of war until the people – those who do the suffering and still pay the price – make up their minds that those they elect to office shall do their bidding, and not that of the profiteers.
Another step necessary in this fight to smash the war racket is the limited plebiscite to determine whether a war should be declared. A plebiscite not of all the voters but merely of those who would be called upon to do the fighting and dying. There wouldn't be very much sense in having a 76-year-old president of a munitions factory or the flat-footed head of an international banking firm or the cross-eyed manager of a uniform manufacturing plant – all of whom see visions of tremendous profits in the event of war – voting on whether the nation should go to war or not. They never would be called upon to shoulder arms – to sleep in a trench and to be shot. Only those who would be called upon to risk their lives for their country should have the privilege of voting to determine whether the nation should go to war.
There is ample precedent for restricting the voting to those affected. Many of our states have restrictions on those permitted to vote. In most, it is necessary to be able to read and write before you may vote. In some, you must own property. It would be a simple matter each year for the men coming of military age to register in their communities as they did in the draft during the World War and be examined physically. Those who could pass and who would therefore be called upon to bear arms in the event of war would be eligible to vote in a limited plebiscite. They should be the ones to have the power to decide – and not a Congress few of whose members are within the age limit and fewer still of whom are in physical condition to bear arms. Only those who must suffer should have the right to vote.
A third step in this business of smashing the war racket is to make certain that our military forces are truly forces for defense only.
At each session of Congress the question of further naval appropriations comes up. The swivel-chair admirals of Washington (and there are always a lot of them) are very adroit lobbyists. And they are smart. They don't shout that "We need a lot of battleships to war on this nation or that nation." Oh no. First of all, they let it be known that America is menaced by a great naval power. Almost any day, these admirals will tell you, the great fleet of this supposed enemy will strike suddenly and annihilate 125,000,000 people. Just like that. Then they begin to cry for a larger navy. For what? To fight the enemy? Oh my, no. Oh, no. For defense purposes only.
Then, incidentally, they announce maneuvers in the Pacific. For defense. Uh, huh.
The Pacific is a great big ocean. We have a tremendous coastline on the Pacific. Will the maneuvers be off the coast, two or three hundred miles? Oh, no. The maneuvers will be two thousand, yes, perhaps even thirty-five hundred miles, off the coast.
The Japanese, a proud people, of course will be pleased beyond expression to see the united States fleet so close to Nippon's shores. Even as pleased as would be the residents of California were they to dimly discern through the morning mist, the Japanese fleet playing at war games off Los Angeles.
The ships of our navy, it can be seen, should be specifically limited, by law, to within 200 miles of our coastline. Had that been the law in 1898 the Maine would never have gone to Havana Harbor. She never would have been blown up. There would have been no war with Spain with its attendant loss of life. Two hundred miles is ample, in the opinion of experts, for defense purposes. Our nation cannot start an offensive war if its ships can't go further than 200 miles from the coastline. Planes might be permitted to go as far as 500 miles from the coast for purposes of reconnaissance. And the army should never leave the territorial limits of our nation.
To summarize: Three steps must be taken to smash the war racket.
We must take the profit out of war.
We must permit the youth of the land who would bear arms to decide whether or not there should be war.
We must limit our military forces to home defense purposes.

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[Shadowman777]

WELL, it's a racket, all right. A few profit – and the many pay.

Coming on the heels of the Great Depression, this isolationist thinking was held by more then a few. Much has changed since 1935, and you never gave answer to my previous email.

For the sake of arguement, let's say we had adopted his isolationist plan in 1935.

WW2 breaks out - all nations are involved except the United States. What would have happened?

England would have fallen as we would not have supplied her arms - 200 mile limit ya know - and Hitler would have taken Europe AND Russia. Japan would taken out Australia and the Far East, and Hawaii and Alaska would have certainly have fallen. Any industrial might we had would be long gone due to the elimination of imports of oil and other critical resources. We now stand alone.

If Japan and Germany don't go toe-to-toe, and make some sort of pact - America now looks a war on two fronts on the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans. Three sides- if Japan comes down through Canada, four - if Germany opts to come up through Mexico or vice-versa.

But then, Japan and Germany really don't even need to invade the United States. The Germans (though they are behind in the creation of the atom bomb) they are well advanced in rockets. We would probably have the bomb before Germany, but we cannot go beyond 500 miles with our aircraft - off our coastline - and then only for recon. When the Germans finally get the bomb, they simply lob it from another nation, Mexico or Canada, and America is no more. We will be forced to sue for peace - at least those in America who survive.

No, Smedley's isolationism would have spelled the death of America. You take out the threat BEFORE it reaches your borders.

[10thzodiac]

Coming on the heels of the Great Depression, this isolationist thinking was held by more then a few. Much has changed since 1935, and you never gave answer to my previous email.

For the sake of arguement, let's say we had adopted his isolationist plan in 1935.

WW2 breaks out - all nations are involved except the United States. What would have happened?

England would have fallen as we would not have supplied her arms - 200 mile limit ya know - and Hitler would have taken Europe AND Russia. Japan would taken out Australia and the Far East, and Hawaii and Alaska would have certainly have fallen. Any industrial might we had would be long gone due to the elimination of imports of oil and other critical resources. We now stand alone.

If Japan and Germany don't go toe-to-toe, and make some sort of pact - America now looks a war on two fronts on the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans. Three sides- if Japan comes down through Canada, four - if Germany opts to come up through Mexico or vice-versa.

But then, Japan and Germany really don't even need to invade the United States. The Germans (though they are behind in the creation of the atom bomb) they are well advanced in rockets. We would probably have the bomb before Germany, but we cannot go beyond 500 miles with our aircraft - off our coastline - and then only for recon. When the Germans finally get the bomb, they simply lob it from another nation, Mexico or Canada, and America is no more. We will be forced to sue for peace - at least those in America who survive.

No, Smedley's isolationism would have spelled the death of America. You take out the threat BEFORE it reaches your borders.

Hmmm? Why then would someone "that really knows the score" say the following in 1957?

Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear -- kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor -- with the cry of grave national emergency ... Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant sums demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real.

General Douglas MacArthur, 1957

[Shadowman777]

Hmmm? Why then would someone "that really knows the score" say the following in 1957?

Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear -- kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor -- with the cry of grave national emergency ... Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant sums demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real.

General Douglas MacArthur, 1957

You change gears faster then a race car driver. You have two posts you have not dealt with yet. Get to it Marine!

[10thzodiac]

If our shores/home or Bill of Rights need me or my family we'll be right along side you and yours in the Marines, God Bless America and the Marine Corps!:iwo:

[greensideout]

I think that there is merit in what you both point out---but then, who really gives a chit what I think---lol. As I see it, the foreign policy that is currently in motion is a mistake and does not build friendships around the world. A new design of policy is long over do. Yes we have the war at hand and it must be fought. I said at it's begining that it would last at lest a generation---if we do things right. The first thing that could be done correctly is to name the enemy. It's not Iraq---It's Islam!

[Shadowman777]

If our shores/home or Bill of Rights need me or my family we'll be right along side you and yours in the Marines, God Bless America and the Marine Corps!:iwo:

No ANSWER to my two previous posts. Libs are like that. STILL awaiting a reply ...

[yellowwing]

If Isolationism had become policy...The United States would not be a Superpower. No moon landing and no leading world economics.

Most importantly, the tone an character of the People would be muted. Folks waving a 48 star flag quietly chanting, "We're Number 3!"

That is not the Spirit of America!

[RLeon]

If Isolationism had become policy...The United States would not be a Superpower. No moon landing and no leading world economics.

Most importantly, the tone an character of the People would be muted. Folks waving a 48 star flag quietly chanting, "We're Number 3!"

That is not the Spirit of America!
Watch out, you might be accused of being an Imperialist.:D

[10thzodiac]

No ANSWER to my two previous posts. Libs are like that. STILL awaiting a reply ...

Dear Shadowman777
Are you insinuating that I’m dodging your questions (posts) that our government must have preventive wars and with ground troops either in foreign countries or on their doorsteps to protect us from some terrible evil that MacArthur is talking about that is ready to gobble us up?
According to you Smedleys wisdom is dated on the subject and you didn’t get what MacArthur said in my earlier post answering your questions to me …
Shadowmann777 remember minds are like parachutes, they work best when open…
LET’S TRY EHISENHOWER ON THE SUBJECT:
GENERAL OF ALL ARMIES (FIVE STARS), SUPREME ALLIED COMANDER WWII AND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:
“When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them tp go and fight it." "After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing.”
“We will bankrupt ourselves in vain search for absolute security.”
“How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?”
MACARTHUR AGAIN:
“Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.” ~ General Douglas MacArthur
GEORGE W. BUSH:
“These people are trying to shake the will of the Iraqi citizens, and they want us to leave…I think the world would be better off if we did leave…” ~ George W. Bush (speaking on Iraq Insurgency, 9/04)
“IF we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, we’re going to have a serious problem coming down the road.” ~ George W. Bush:
I can tell you this: If I’m ever in a position to call the shots, I’m not going to rush to send somebody else’s kids into a war.” ~ George w. Bush
“I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we’re really talking about peace” ~ George W. Bush
“We know that dictators are quick to choose aggression, while free nations strive to resolve differences in peace.” ~ George W. Bush (UN address, 9/04)
“If this was a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of allot easier, just as long as I am the dictator.” ~ George W. Bush
U.S. BRIGADER GENERAL WILLIAM LOONEY:
"If they turn on the radars, we’re going to blow up their goddamm SAMs (surface to air missiles). They know we own their country. We own their airspace…We dictate the way they live and talk. And that’s what great about <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:pAmerica</ST1:p</st1:country-region> right now. It’s a good thing especially when there is a lot of oil out there we need.” ~ General William Looney (interview Washington Post, <st1:date Month="8" Day="30" Year="1999">August 30, 1999</st1:date>)
Well, Shadowman777 have I graduated from liberal to traitor yet?:D

[marinegreen]

Your not a traitor 10thzodiac, your a Marine with an opinion and you came across with documented imfo. We can call each other names and categorize one another but it accomplishes nutta,zip,ziltch. Theres a famous saying that goes like this "WE'RE ALL RIGHTEOUS IN OUR OWN MIND" So for you and shadowman to battle back and forth will get you know where except for one another to dig deeper each time for quotes,stats, yatta,yatta. I have almost let the spin draw me in but have taken a step back and regrouped. Politics is 1 of the 4 evils thats turning society into a cesspool. SF

[yellowwing]

A Liberal Imperialist? Emperor Yellowwing bringing free health care to Africa, and sending in the Marines to establish After School Programs to Haiti? :banana:

[10thzodiac]

Your not a traitor 10thzodiac, your a Marine with an opinion and you came across with documented imfo. We can call each other names and categorize one another but it accomplishes nutta,zip,ziltch. Theres a famous saying that goes like this "WE'RE ALL RIGHTEOUS IN OUR OWN MIND" So for you and shadowman to battle back and forth will get you know where except for one another to dig deeper each time for quotes,stats, yatta,yatta. I have almost let the spin draw me in but have taken a step back and regrouped. Politics is 1 of the 4 evils thats turning society into a cesspool. SF

PEACE IS IMPORTANT :thumbup:

P.S. Curious to know what the other three evils are, without trying to start another controversey is religion one of them? lol

[Shadowman777]

Dear Shadowman777
According to you Smedleys wisdom is dated on the subject and you didn’t get what MacArthur said in my earlier post answering your questions to me

Well, Shadowman777 have I graduated from liberal to traitor yet?

I do think Smedley's "wisdom" is dated, and it would be folly to employ this thinking today.

I am not a person big on quotes, as they can so easily be pulled out of context. No, I use my own brain-housing group to come up with relevent examples - such as my example of what could have happen to America during WWII if we had adopted Smedley's thinking. I didn't find it somewhere or use a quote. It was simply the logical conclusion.

Do I think you are a traitor? No. I don't even think Smedley is all important to you, except to the extent he can be used to further your ideology.

But that's OK. This is why I am here - to bring light into darkened brain-housing groups. To free the liberal mind, and unleash that which has been brought into bondage. It is a thankless task, yet someone has to do it.

There will be an offering plate passed at the end of this post. Thank you.

[marinegreen]

SHADOW, as usual I'm ROFL, great ending !!!
Zodiac, yes Religion is also 1 of the 4, myself I never could figure that stuff out as I thought theres only one supreme entity.We all know the 3rd is $$$ and the 4th is drugs, that just say NO policy back in the reagan era was nothing but spin, much like it is today.Anybody with a peabrain ought to know that big brother is a supplier,theres to much of #3 in it for our politicians to not be lining there pockets. When ever you hear of major drug bust its to make the peeps think hey there really,really trying to stop it but in all reality it goes right back to there distribution wharehouse.

[10thzodiac]

I do think Smedley's "wisdom" is dated, and it would be folly to employ this thinking today.

I am not a person big on quotes, as they can so easily be pulled out of context. No, I use my own brain-housing group to come up with relevent examples - such as my example of what could have happen to America during WWII if we had adopted Smedley's thinking. I didn't find it somewhere or use a quote. It was simply the logical conclusion.

Do I think you are a traitor? No. I don't even think Smedley is all important to you, except to the extent he can be used to further your ideology.

But that's OK. This is why I am here - to bring light into darkened brain-housing groups. To free the liberal mind, and unleash that which has been brought into bondage. It is a thankless task, yet someone has to do it.

There will be an offering plate passed at the end of this post. Thank you.

Marine I see you were stationed MCAS Futenma, I was stationed at Camp Zukeran 63-65 down the road, did a little side trip to Nam August '64 for a couple of months that I didn't expect. I love that army open gate liberty they had at Zukeran :D me AWOL, not me! Believe it or not I was in Okinawa April 15-18 this year. I go back every five years or so, sometimes staying weeks. This time I went to Beijing, China for four days then Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Nara, Tokunoshima Island (deep sea fishing and boar hunting) and some other places I can't remember. I'm getting even with my children, I'm spending their inheritence. I see you climb poles, my secondary MOS was 2511, we got a lot in common besides our differences of opinions.

SF

P.S. They are talking about moving MCAS Futenma to a different part of the Island.

[Shadowman777]

Marine I see you were stationed MCAS Futenma, I was stationed at Camp Zukeran 63-65 down the road, did a little side trip to Nam August '64 for a couple of months that I didn't expect. I love that army open gate liberty they had at Zukeran :D me AWOL, not me! Believe it or not I was in Okinawa April 15-18 this year. I go back every five years or so, sometimes staying weeks. This time I went to Beijing, China for four days then Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Nara, Tokunoshima Island (deep sea fishing and boar hunting) and some other places I can't remember. I'm getting even with my children, I'm spending their inheritence. I see you climb poles, my secondary MOS was 2511, we got a lot in common besides our differences of opinions.

SF

P.S. They are talking about moving MCAS Futenma to a different part of the Island.

Concerning Futenma, I am sure Wingers there will not miss humping that hill on and off that base! It will suck not having the best view of typhoons on the island though. Super Typhoon Wynne 1980 or 1981 - what a monster! Center winds of 180 knots (219 miles per hour). That bad boy hit us from the south, went 60 miles north, turned around and hit us a second time. We were socked in for 6 days - eating C-Rats! When winds hit that speed, rain will leave welts on you. Of course we cleared out the liquor store. This will make you cry ... a bottle of Seagrams Extra Dry Gin - $1.25. Case of beer? $3 - except for Heineken - which was $4.

*Camp Zukeran* - was that north or south of Futenma? You know how the Corps loves to change base names. When I was there, it was Futenma, Butler (just north of Futenma), Schwab, Hanson in the northern part of the island - and then one down by Naha that was called Makiamono (?) - but they changed that name too. I do remember the name Zukeran, but that's all.

Hmmm ... was it an Army base? There was one Army base named McTurris (?) where they kept the brig.

Don't ask me how I knew of it! LOL!!

Oh yeah ...

[yellowwing]

To free the liberal mind, and unleash that which has been brought into bondage. It is a thankless task, yet someone has to do it.
What, doest thou think that bringing Medical Bureaucracy to the Sudan and Draconian Child and Family regulations to Haiti is not a Noble Idea? :banana:

[Shadowman777]

What, doest thou think that bringing Medical Bureaucracy to the Sudan and Draconian Child and Family regulations to Haiti is not a Noble Idea?

I am a firm believer that the Pathagriam therom of light dialation versus the heart break of psoriasis, is often congruent to the intersecting, bifecting trifectors.

But then, that is my opinion.

[yellowwing]

Spending our hard earned Gross National Product to develop Little Haitian Liberals don't turn you on? :banana:

[Shadowman777]

Spending our hard earned Gross National Product to develop Little Haitian Liberals don't turn you on?

Err ... first I've heard of it - but if you say so - then OK!

BTW - I have a nice Chablis here - how about you?

[10thzodiac]

Concerning Futenma, I am sure Wingers there will not miss humping that hill on and off that base! It will suck not having the best view of typhoons on the island though. Super Typhoon Wynne 1980 or 1981 - what a monster! Center winds of 180 knots (219 miles per hour). That bad boy hit us from the south, went 60 miles north, turned around and hit us a second time. We were socked in for 6 days - eating C-Rats! When winds hit that speed, rain will leave welts on you. Of course we cleared out the liquor store. This will make you cry ... a bottle of Seagrams Extra Dry Gin - $1.25. Case of beer? $3 - except for Heineken - which was $4.

*Camp Zukeran* - was that north or south of Futenma? You know how the Corps loves to change base names. When I was there, it was Futenma, Butler (just north of Futenma), Schwab, Hanson in the northern part of the island - and then one down by Naha that was called Makiamono (?) - but they changed that name too. I do remember the name Zukeran, but that's all.

Hmmm ... was it an Army base? There was one Army base named McTurris (?) where they kept the brig.

Don't ask me how I knew of it! LOL!!

Oh yeah ...

Camp Zukeran, get this...was the army 173rd AB Brigade and a Army WAC detachment two barracks away from mine.The paratroopers were next door from my barracks the Marine 12th Artillery Regiment plus somewhere on the other side of us USMC 3rd Force Sevice Regiment. We also bordered an army dependants quaters Camp Stillwell (?). I remeber flying out of MCAS Futenma to Hong Kong on a training flight (3 day pass) I believe Camp Zukeran was between MCAS Futenma and Koza (now Okinawa city). No guards at the army gates was great with that USMC cinderella liberty crap. When I was there they had a drought in '64 and the army for awhile had to pump salt water up from the ocean (close by) for the heads including our showers. Everytime a paratrooper (after hours) walked through our area it seemed like it was inevitable he'd be jumped by a couple of Marines (who said we fight fair). It got real bad and this captain that I worked for in battalion told me that our colonel caught a army sergeant double timing a platoon of paratroopers chanting that the Marines were cowards and he called the army brigader general about it and the general told our colonel we started it and our colonel said you know what this means general and the general replied "WAR!":yes:

Fun times

SF

[Shadowman777]

SHADOW, as usual I'm ROFL, great ending !!!


Why thank you Jerry! I thought as long I was preaching ...

Zodo reminds me of my Uncle Bob - an early 60's Marine - but liberal as the day is long. I love the uncle, but his politics are so far out in left field, I have to look right just to see the center. He worked for liberal campaigns in '68. First with Shirley Chisolm, then McCarthy, then finally the guy who got slaughtered by Nixon.

During my son's wedding reception in the summer of '94, he and my brother Mark (an AF puke) got into a heated debate about the Kerry/ Bush presidential election. Sheesh, they almost came to blows!!! I decided to make myself obnoxious thereby taking the heat off. I kept walking up to them - three times - saying, "Did you know Kerry was a Vietnam vet???"

Given that's what he ran on, I overstated the obvious.

[yellowwing]

Sheesh, they almost came to blows!!!
Maybe if he was a strong enough leader, it would not have needed? That's a really good question.

[yellowwing]

It just really irks me that Kerry waited so long to finally start to respond to the Swift Boats Veterans. You just can't have a Commander in Chief that is wishy washy on personal attacks like that.

[10thzodiac]

We also bordered an army dependants quaters Camp Stillwell (?).
SF

I remember now, not Camp Stillwell, it was "Fort Buckner" or Bruckner, named after the Army General that was killed there during the battle of Okinawa. If I remember the story right as a enemy shell exploded close by it threw a piece of coral that hit him fataly, I think that's the way it happened. Stillwell, was the gym at Camp Zukeran. There was a patch of boonies on that base and one of our guys found an old M-1 there all rusted from that battle; what he was doing in the boonies, I don't know, not my idea of spending liesure time. I did find a belt of .50 cal close by from WWII while playing catch (base ball) with this Okinawan kid by my place in the Ville. I opened a shell and the powder was still good. Occasionly the farmers find ordinance while digging, yikes!

The war between the 173rd AirBorne & 12th Marines on base went like this: After work we (Marines) had riot control exercises (saber rattling) with fixed bayonets (scabbards on) in full presence of the paratroopers next door who were being issued in plain view axe-handles, don't ask me where they got all them damm axe handles...I don't know. After that every evening a Marine and army E-5 together walked the sidewalk between the Army & Marine barracks to keep the peace.

Marinegreen: My favorite saying about religion... Religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds! (Think about it)

SF