Myths, Fallacies and Urban Legends

[thedrifter]

1. The Israeli Army claim: <br />
The legend goes that Israel removed women from combat because a group of them were captured and horribly mistreated - or that Arabs would &quot;fight to the death&quot; to avoid...

[thedrifter]

The reality is - yes, many women can't throw grenades or even baseballs - but throwing style is not determined by biology--anyone can learn to throw. Critics say that there is a structural difference between male and female arms or shoulders-in the rotator cuff- that dictates different throwing motions. If you ask any orthopedic surgeon, anatomy professor or women coaches - they'll tell you that there is no structural or biological reason why men and women should throw in different ways. Muscle size, yes - but the way the "hinges" work - no.
The fundamental mistake that many women make is in trying to throw with their body facing the target, rather than rotating their shoulders and hips ninety degrees away from the target, and then swinging them around in order to accelerate the ball. For some inexplicable reason the military doesn't deem it necessary to work at training women in these things and in strength and conditioning early in boot camp.

What really appears even more ludicrous to me is that with the new light weight grenade launchers, and the launcher adaptors for the M-16, why we would still train anyone, male or female, to stand up, extend their left arm, lean back and lob a grenade and make them a perfect target for enemy fire. That five seconds of full body exposure is four and a half seconds too long!

9. The "women have an advese efffect on unit cohesion and male bonding" claim:
Well this one has been so overworked, especially by people who have never served in a mixed unit, that it is getting tiresome.
The reality is that "during Desert Storm the combat support units, ships, and aircrews with women performed their missions well even under direct fire. When the action started the mixed units and crews bonded into cohesive effective teams. According to Captain Cynthia Mosley, commander of an Army combat support company that was in the thick of the action during the ground attack into Iraq: "When the action starts every soldier does what they've been trained to do - nobody cares whether you're male or female. It's just - can you do the job?"
According to studies conducted by the Military Research Institute for the Behavioral and Social Sciences "Trust, respect for tactical skill and a metaphor of familiaism - the good unit speaks and acts as if they were members of a family - the better the unit performs." (In this respect since when does the family exclude mothers, sisters, daughters and wives - are they not all women?)
There is also a lot of evidence that mixed-gender units in foreign militaries performed more effectively than single-gender ones - in North Vietnam and El Salvador for example. American commanders of experienced mixed-gender units noticed a similar pattern of positive dynamics - the women worked harder to gain approval and the men worked harder not to be outdone. This was quite evident in the Gulf.
And what about the astronauts? You don't hear of any problems in space relative to unit cohesion. The men and women of NASA, military and civilian, have been performing as a "cohesive unit" on space flights for years.

10. The "women can't endure the rough living conditions in a combat zone" claim:
Get a grip - do you think they stayed at a luxury hotel in the Gulf?
According to General Holm: "Many U.S. military women lived like grunts in the field. They slept in coed tents so cramped that if anyone turned over you knew it and under lean-tos set up beside the trucks they drove. They endured blistering heat and the lack of privacy. They ate MREs, guzzled bottled water, went days without showers and put powder in their hair instead of washing it."
Source: Major General Jeanne Holm in "Women in the Military - an Unfinished Revolution".

11. The "men only want to protect women" claim:
Fatherly generals stand up and preach that women don't belong in the military because the goal of all men is to protect women - and that the men will be so busy protecting the women they won't do their job.
Well then if that's the case why do we have figures like this?

"On average each fiscal year from 1990 to 1996, 23.2 per 1000 spouses of military personnel experienced a violent victimization."
-FY90-96 Spouse and Child Maltreatment, Department of Defense.

"The rate of violent victimization of spouses in the U.S. military has steadily increased from 18.6 to 25.6 per 1000 during the same time period."
FY90-96 Spouse and Child Maltreatment, Department of Defense.

"More than 8,000 active duty women were abused by their spouses from 1990 to 1995. Half of the cases involved abusers who were also in the military."
Department of Defense, December 1996.

"Eighteen percent of the victims in a sample of incidents were active-duty members."
Department of Defense, October 1996.

"One in four female service members under age 50 has been physically abused."
Women Veterans' Experiences with Domestic Violence and Sexual Harassment, Drs. Murdoch and Nichol, 1993.

In 1997, the Defense Department reported a substantiated rate of abuse of 22 cases per 1,000 spouses. The Navy rate for that same year is 12 per 1,000. The Bureau of Justice Statistics places the average national rate of victimization for women from 1992 to 1996 at about eight per 1000.

12. The "time lost for pregnancy claim":

This vacuous old saw has been grinding for twenty years and is dragged out every time another hack writer is looking for an argument against military women. Yet as far back as 1975 the Navy discovered that men lost 190,000 days to drug rehabilitation and another 196,000 days to alcohol rehabilitation - almost twice the "time lost" by women to pregnancy. Pregnancy reports and surveys have been generated over and over and by 1990 speculation was rampant that pregnant women were costing the military a proverbial fortune in early returns from overseas bases. Well surprise, surprise - another study showed that the average cost of the early returns for men was $7,174. while the average cost for women due to pregnancy was $2,046. Among medical evacuations, AIDS and substance abuse accounted for up to 8 percent, pregnancy for barely one percent.
Source: Linda Bird Francke in "Ground Zero"

Sadly the "out of control media" is no help - it continues to foster these myths on both cable and network televison - pandering to the righteous ranters that for some reason don't see the military as the place for women to seek the opportunites offered by the nation's largest equal opportunity employer - the Department of Defense.

13. The "Feminization of the Military" lament:

This babbling treatise belongs in the 8-track graveyard along with the rest of the "Archie Bunker" philosophies. It's usually prattled by a short-timer with about two years served, over thirty years ago, who has gone on to other things. To advocate denying the equal opportunity education, training and benefits of military service to women, and to hawk the feminization lament as a reason is condemnation without reason.

The armed forces draw their members from our modern society - it follows that the make up of the services must reflect that society from which they are drawn. Feminism is not the catalyst behind women volunteering to serve nor is it the motivator. Ask the women who served long before feminism was a pop-culture term. Do those who espouse a womanless military also want it to be a plebian corps with philistine standards or a skilled modern force trained and equipped to maintain peace worldwide?

14. The hue and cry that women will be sexually assaulted if they are taken prisoner.

None of the military women taken prisoner in the Pacific in WWII were sexually assaulted.
But the real answer is a question.
Do you really think that male prisoners are NOT sexually tortured, raped, and sodomized?

by Captain Barbara A. Wilson, USAF (Ret)

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/images2/shooters.gif

Sempers,

Roger

[USMC0311]

http://www.truthorfiction.com/
as far as women in combat goes. Hell I always want sum
"a beer machine in every barracks and a BAM in every bed"
LOL Get hard and suck it up baby.

wonder how long my opinion will last:banana:

[LadyLeatherneck]

Hell I always want sum
"a beer machine in every barracks and a BAM in every bed"
LOL Get hard and suck it up baby.


What?! you think we're general issue or something and you
can just lay us out on the rack like some linen. You better
show some respect Marine. I'm going to try to let this one
go but you really need to watch your comments because that's
totally disprespectful to a Women Marine and I have more
self respect than you could imagine as do other female Marines! :mad:

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by LadyLeatherneck


What?! you think we're general issue or something and you
can just lay us out on the rack like some linen. You better
show some respect Marine. I'm going to try to let this one
go but you really need to watch your comments because that's
totally disprespectful to a Women Marine and I have more
self respect than you could imagine as do other female Marines! :mad:
FYI the phrase :
"A beer machine in every and a BAM in every bed" was made by a Marine that I am Quite fond of and I really do respect Women Marines..I don't respect YOU and your childish kiddy bull**** so baby U can KISS my ass.:yes:

[tex-mark]

It seems to me that you're the one being childish here, Joe. You just can't leave well enough alone. Your remarks are totally out of line, and uncalled for. There is absolutely no need for you to get personal like that. I don't see where she has bothered you in a long time; so why do you keep attacking her? So, I ask you; who's the kid here?

[USMC0311]

you seem to be a bit bias Brother. well I said what I mean and I mean what I said. And I ain't gonna be pulled in no pis sin match cuz of yer affiliations with the/her.like she said before, she can ignore me and I can ignore her. my feeling is If yer gonna post to someone expect a reply ain't that what the threds about.
and Don't even think I am gonna change my feelings.
Semper Fi, To the Corps

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by tex-mark
It seems to me that you're the one being childish here, Joe. You just can't leave well enough alone. Your remarks are totally out of line, and uncalled for. There is absolutely no need for you to get personal like that.

I don't see where she has bothered you in a long time;

so why do you keep attacking her? So, I ask you; who's the kid here?

yah right

[LadyLeatherneck]

Nobody is asking you to change your mind Mr.USMC0311. All I said is that that comment was totally uncalled for and I could care less what you think about me but there's no way in hell I'll let anyone disrespect us (Women Marines) that way....
and to be honest, i'll leave it at that. This battle is one not worth fighting for...once a hardhead, always a hardhead. You've proved that. Oh and really good on the name calling. You making yourself look outstanding Marine. :tired:

[wrbones]

Settle down.

I see fault with both sides here.

Were ya in my section, ya'd both be be on extra duty!

Calm the **** down LL. I've taken some hard and cheap shots at ya and you thought it was funny stuff! Joe's just rough as cobb is all! Different background and dare I say different upbringing!

Joe, you just get in deeper and deeper with her don't ya! I'd loan ya my e-tool, but yer doin' well enough without one! Joe ya gotta be careful bro! LMAO.

You folks wanta rant, take it out on me, then we'll sit and have a few beers and work it out, ok!

The rest of you folks stand down if ya got nuthin' constructive to say!

[DELTA2ALPHA]

We all support the freedom of speech and the right to disagree.That's the reason we took the OATH and fought to uphold that right forever. Keep your thoughts dear,and respect your brothers opinion.


S/F MIKE

[tex-mark]

Originally posted by wrbones
Settle down.

I see fault with both sides here.

Were ya in my section, ya'd both be be on extra duty!

Calm the **** down LL. I've taken some hard and cheap shots at ya and you thought it was funny stuff! Joe's just rough as cobb is all! Different background and dare I say different upbringing!

Joe, you just get in deeper and deeper with her don't ya! I'd loan ya my e-tool, but yer doin' well enough without one! Joe ya gotta be careful bro! LMAO.

You folks wanta rant, take it out on me, then we'll sit and have a few beers and work it out, ok!

The rest of you folks stand down if ya got nuthin' constructive to say.



Okay Bones; explain to me where there's fault on both sides? Laura has never done anything to Joe; yet he continues to take cheap shots at her. And since I'm the only one that seems to stand up to this bullsh!t, I assume you're referring to me when you say "stand down".....well sorry Bro; ain't gonna happen. I guess I'm the only one that can see right from wrong here. It's so nice to see all you so called friends of hers letting this crap go unchallenged. Seems like a pollitically correct crowd here, that's afraid to stand up and step on some toes. I wouldn't blame her if she quit coming to this site.

[Shaffer]

First of all there are many male Marines (both younger and older) who believe women should not be in combat. They are many women Marines (both younger and older) who think women should not be in combat. It is just that an opinion. No one has to agree. Anyone who wrote an opinion about women in combat is not wrong...However anyone who made direct comments to people on this board is wrong. If you have a personal problem with a member take it behind the barracks (email or PM)...keep it off the boards. Any questions bout it then email or PM me.

Semper Fi,

Jerry

[Sixguns]

BAM??? Now who is showing their age? WMs is also something of the past. Female Marines are Marines! Their gender is not indicative of a lesser quality or lesser dedicated Marine. I found the comment to be offensive and I am male. Female Marines must complete all the same requirements as male recruits, with the exception of their PFT (flexed-arm hang vs. pull ups). Oh yes, I remember the days of males doing a 3-mile PFT and women doing 1.5. Here's a news flash... the women now do three miles too! Just like they have to do the crucible and everything else. Maybe I feel hurt because the mother of two of my children is a Marine. Maybe it's because I watched her train harder than me so no man would point a finger at her and say "look the WM is falling out of a run." Or see her pack and gear was equal to what male Marines in her unit carried so no one could say she wasn't carrying her weight. I joke with LL and CAS a lot. Never told them stuff like if they were out of the rack, they were out of their MOS. The Marine Corps does not tolerate discrimination or harrassment. We, as a Corps, have evolved.

Here's another throw back from the dark ages. Remember, light green and dark green??? This too is no more part of our vocabulary. A Marine is a Marine, regardless of gender, race, religion or any other obvious ethnic indicator. So, although I am not the PC police, let's try to respect all who are Marines.

SF,

[tex-mark]

I appreciate your comments.


Jerry? What does women in combat have to do with this discussion?

[CAS3]

who support women in the Corps...thank you.

I may not have been oversees during war but I have been trained and I DO have the blood of the USMC coursing through my veins.
I love the Marine Corps and what it stands for and I will defend it and my country until my last dying breathe.

[wrbones]

email yer way Marine


Those two have a bit of a history.

Good advice is to stay outta the way, or try to make it better not worse




Besides! It's all Drifter's fault! He started it! LMAO!

( That was a snide way of saying something about personal responsibility. These two Marines are havin' some trouble here. What's our responsibility? To make things worse? To trash talk each other and insult each other? or to make the team stronger?)

[tex-mark]

Originally posted by wrbones
email yer way Marine


Those two have a bit of a history.

Good advice is to stay outta the way, or try to make it better not worse


Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about; so don't be giving me advice. Laura never started anything. You weren't around in those days; I was.


OOOHRAAAH Cas !! Semper Fi !!!

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by CAS3
who support women in the Corps...thank you.

I may not have been oversees during war but I have been trained and I DO have the blood of the USMC coursing through my veins.
I love the Marine Corps and what it stands for and I will defend it and my country until my last dying breathe.

same same Me too Colleen sept I have been overseas during war. Don't get the statement I made wrong Marine I do love my Sisters and Our Corps. The statement I made bout gettin sum was just messin round the one bout "A beer machine in every barracks and a BAM in every bed" was from my understanding a Quote made by a Lt. General when asked "what will you do if you are made Commandant of the Marine Corps" I certainly don't think that would have happened and I shurly don't think the Lt. General believed it either, but from what I heard it cost him, He never made Commandant
Semper Fi, Sister
Hope ya have a good evening Colleen
:yes:

[CAS3]

I hold nothing against anyone on this site. I love you all as if you were my brothers and sisters.

As for a BAM in every bed...if my husband were here...I would have a MARINE in my bed every night...WOOOHOOO!!!!


Please remember that we need to be considerate of each others feelings. Some are not as hard CORPS as others and if need be...keep personal OPINIONS to yourself. Like Momma always said if you can't say something nice...tell everyone to eat **** and die
ROFLMAO!!!

[wrbones]

Probably won't be the last.



But I damn sure know this!

Harsh words among the troops never got the mission done.


What's yer mission Marines?

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by tex-mark



Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about; so don't be giving me advice. Laura never started anything. You weren't around in those days; I was.


OOOHRAAAH Cas !! Semper Fi !!!

like the boss said e-mail

[tex-mark]

Is to stand up for a friend that has been wronged? More people should do that.

[CAS3]

Unfortunately I am Moderator. I can not have bickering and inner conflicts going on while I am on watch. So this is the last post UNDERSTAND MARINES.
I would appreciate if it were dropped right now. I know MARINES can and will support each other until the end so I am asking nicely. Please do not post ONE MORE thing on here. Thank You and
SEMPER FIDELIS