Question regarding a medical diagnosis & enlistment.

[hurstfarms]

First and foremost: I am 100% serious about joining the Marine Corps. I fully understand that any medical question is impossible to get a straight answer, especially on these forums. I am in the process of getting in contact with a recruiter to get more information, but i'd like to ask the Marines here and hear what you all have to say.

There was an incident over 2 years ago, and I was admitted into the hospital for a laceration on my left forearm. The medical records show the diagnosis as a "suicide attempt" however this is completely false and I am also in the process of getting these changed. When I went to the follow-up with my physician, he wrote his own diagnosis as (word for word) an "Adjustment disorder with disturbance of conduct" and recommended counseling for coping skills. I attended the counseling and I am able to get a signed letter from both the therapist as well as my physician for being mentally stable to join the military. I have had long conversations with both of them and they have both highly encouraged me joining.

Should I worry about the original diagnosis of a suicide attempt? Or does the follow-up diagnosis the only thing that matters? This is in the event that I cannot get the original diagnosis changed.

I fully understand that the USMC has many others to choose from who don't have problems like these, but I will do everything possible to join. My next question is, how would I go about requesting some sort of psychiatric evaluation at MEPS to let the doctors decide if i'm fit for service? Breaking a bone is a temporary dq because it can heal, I believe these types of things that i'm faced with can heal just the same. I do believe I am healed, and i'm sure that I can prove this with a psychiatric eval. If anyone can shed some light on this, I would be grateful.

Thank you for reading this and thank you for your service.

[LCPL1341]

You cut your wrist, purposely, which regardless of how they changed the diagnosis, will look like a suicide attempt. My honest opinion, don't hold your breath on being able to join. Mental instability is pretty much a non-waiverable dis-qualifier. You SAY you're healed, you have paperwork saying you're healed; but what happens if bootcamp gets too tough? When it breaks you down mentally? Bootcamp is just the tip of the iceberg too. I saw quite a few of the "suicidal tendencies" types in bootcamp sitting in RSP (recruit separation platoon) waiting for their psych evals and a plane ticket home. Just to reiterate; your chances of getting in are slim to none. I may be wrong, but I'm usually not. Good luck.

[LCPL1341]

Here's the straight scoop: History of suicidal behavior, including gesture(s) or attempt (s) (300.9) , or history of self-mutilation, is disqualifying.

Mood Disorders

Current mood disorders including, but not limited to, major depression (296.2–3), bipolar (296.4–7), affective psychoses (296.8–9), depressive not otherwise specified (311), are disqualifying.

Derived from Department of Defense (http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/generalinfo/g/afdede.htm) (DOD) Directive 6130.3, "Physical Standards for Appointment, Enlistment, and Induction," and DOD Instruction 6130.4, "Criteria and Procedure Requirements for Physical Standards for Appointment, Enlistment, or Induction in the Armed Forces."

[hurstfarms]

You cut your wrist, purposely, which regardless of how they changed the diagnosis, will look like a suicide attempt. My honest opinion, don't hold your breath on being able to join. Mental instability is pretty much a non-waiverable dis-qualifier. You SAY you're healed, you have paperwork saying you're healed; but what happens if bootcamp gets too tough? When it breaks you down mentally? Bootcamp is just the tip of the iceberg too. I saw quite a few of the "suicidal tendencies" types in bootcamp sitting in RSP (recruit separation platoon) waiting for their psych evals and a plane ticket home. Just to reiterate; your chances of getting in are slim to none. I may be wrong, but I'm usually not. Good luck.

I understand. I know whatever I say doesn't matter at some point, but I was just a stupid kid looking for attention. I knew what I was doing and I wasn't depressed, I was being an idiot. Since those days i've been through my parents divorce, breakups, the death of my bestfriend, the deaths of 3 family members, and realizing my dream of going into the military almost completely destroyed. It hasn't affected me at all.. I haven't been depressed or even truly sad throughout all of that. If I had a shred of a doubt in myself of how I would react in going into bootcamp or any situation in the military, I would not be enlisting. I will tell you that.

Thank you for your reply.


Here's the straight scoop: History of suicidal behavior, including gesture(s) or attempt (s) (300.9) , or history of self-mutilation, is disqualifying.

Mood Disorders
Current mood disorders including, but not limited to, major depression (296.2–3), bipolar (296.4–7), affective psychoses (296.8–9), depressive not otherwise specified (311), are disqualifying.

Derived from Department of Defense (http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/generalinfo/g/afdede.htm) (DOD) Directive 6130.3, "Physical Standards for Appointment, Enlistment, and Induction," and DOD Instruction 6130.4, "Criteria and Procedure Requirements for Physical Standards for Appointment, Enlistment, or Induction in the Armed Forces."



What is defined as current? From my knowledge anything outside of 2 years without any other disruptions is considered not current.

[hurstfarms]

I'm sorry, just realized "history" of self-mutilation. My bad.

In your opinion, what is the best way of attempting to enlist in my particular situation? From start to finish?

[LCPL1341]

The best way? Go talk to a recruiter, be up front with him and explain the situation; after that its out of your power. It will be up to him from that point on. However, I would bet my years salary that he wont move forward in trying to get you in.

Also, this is from the DoD's enlistment standards PDF; the following is a dis-qualifier for enlistment: i. Current or history of disturbance of conduct (312), impulse control (312.3), oppositionaldefiant (313.81), other behavior disorders (313), or personality disorder (301).

Note the "disturbance of conduct." This is the exact language from your civilian medical records. Here's the website, scroll down to Enclosure 4, page 75: http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/arwg/Documents/Wavier%20Guide%20Feb%202015/DODI_6130.03_JUL12.pdf

[hurstfarms]

The best way? Go talk to a recruiter, be up front with him and explain the situation; after that its out of your power. It will be up to him from that point on. However, I would bet my years salary that he wont move forward in trying to get you in.

Also, this is from the DoD's enlistment standards PDF; the following is a dis-qualifier for enlistment: i. Current or history of disturbance of conduct (312), impulse control (312.3), oppositionaldefiant (313.81), other behavior disorders (313), or personality disorder (301).

Note the "disturbance of conduct." This is the exact language from your civilian medical records. Here's the website, scroll down to Enclosure 4, page 75: http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/arwg/Documents/Wavier%20Guide%20Feb%202015/DODI_6130.03_JUL12.pdf


Thanks for the great information. Okay, this is what i've gathered.

g. Depressive disorder not otherwise specified (311), or unspecified mood disorder (296.90),
UNLESS:
DoDI 6130.03, April 28, 2010
Change 1, September 13, 2011
75 ENCLOSURE 4
(1) Outpatient care was not required for longer than 24 months (cumulative) by a
physician or other mental health professional (to include V65.40)
(2) The applicant has been stable without treatment for the past 36 continuous months.
(3) The applicant did not require any inpatient treatment in a hospital or residential
facility. I did not require inpatient treatment.
h. History of a single adjustment disorder (309) within the previous 3 months, or recurrent episodes of adjustment disorders. So it's been over 3 months, good here.
i. Current or history of disturbance of conduct (312), impulse control (312.3), oppositional
defiant (313.81), other behavior disorders (313), or personality disorder (301). It is not current, and from what I know "history" implies recurring events and not just a single event. That's just what I believe. I will show all of this to my recruiter and hopefully it will be just a little bit more on my side. I'll need everything I can get it seems.

Thank you for all your help.

[LCPL1341]

There's still the self mutilation thing. Automatic disqualification. Keep this thread updated.

[josephd]

should've done it right the first time

[hurstfarms]

There's still the self mutilation thing. Automatic disqualification. Keep this thread updated.

Very true.

n. History of suicidal behavior, including gesture(s) or attempt(s) (300.9) or history of selfmutilation
or injury used as a way of dealing with life and emotions.
SMPG: The standard is based on intent – “used as a way of dealing with life or emotions”.
When obvious marks of cutting or burning behavior are visible and the applicant will not
disclose their intent, will not admit to the acts, or provides an irrational explanation, they do not
meet the standard.

Okay. So if the good ol' folks at MEPS go by the books, which isn't completely guaranteed i'm guessing, it seems like i'll have a chance to explain (given that my recruiter could successfully approve me for even going there) If I give the whole story, I honestly think i'll have a good chance. Just have to get that far. From the wording itself, "dealing with life or emotions", that's not why I did it at all. My physician and my therapist have both heard the whole story and thought it was enough to encourage me and even write letters to help me get in. I truly believe if I can get to a psych eval, i'll be good to go. And if they hear the story and don't think i'm fit, so be it. I tried, that's all I ask.


should've done it right the first time

You're telling me! No better way to learn a lesson. Now i've just got to pick up the pieces, pray to every God out there and accept the consequences, learn from my mistakes and move on if it doesn't go my way.

I will definitely keep this thread updated as much as I can, given that I don't have to wait to show that i'm doing good without treatment.

[LCPL1341]

I asked a recruiter about this just now, explaining your situation. His reply was as follows: "I wouldn't touch that with a 40 ft. pole." In order for you to even get a shot at MEPS or step into a MEPS building, a recruiter has to actually decide to work with you and schedule a MEPS appointment. You cant just show up to MEPS. So we're sitting here musing over fine print in some long official documentary because we have the luxury to do so. HOWEVER, a recruiter who has to make mission and is working with applicants without this baggage most likely wont even waste his time taking this on. He'll give you the "sorry but thanks for playing" routine in order to put his focus on those already on his roster. So we can sit here all day and point out "well section so and so of article so and so on this page says specifically [insert official language here]" but this wont really help you at all. Point blank. period. You put a sharp object to your wrist willingly with intent to cause bodily harm. You said "you were a stupid kid looking for attention." Well, that's a HUGE downplay of what basically amounts to suicidal tendency to any rational thinking person.; this alone will drive every Marine recruiter away. Its a pipe dream dude, just telling you. But in any case, update this thread once you talk to him.

[LCPL1341]

Recruiters have the authority to make judgement calls on situations like this without taking the first steps of starting an application and sending you to MEPS. They don't necessarily answer to MEPS. Also, in the remote chance you did make it to MEPS, you'd be red flagged IMMEDIATELY and put on med hold while they review and assess your situation. MEPS too, like recruiters, are allowed to make judgement calls on this situation without going by the book. They would ask you for any and every piece of medical documentation going years back. They can DQ anyone they deem unfit; this is actually in the fine print in those documents I posted earlier. So you have many hurdles to clear.

[Marine1011]

Hey, why don't we ask questions like this while we're at it? If I jump out of a ten story building window, will I break any bones?

[Tennessee Top]

If you keep up with current military affairs at all, you'll know that suicides in the Marine Corps are a major concern and have been for some time. Suicide is a hot topic with USMC leadership and a lot of effort and resources are committed to suicide prevention. Keeping this in mind, it requires a huge leap of faith to even think the USMC would take a chance on someone with this in their background (when there is no need to). I imagine, recruiters are even instructed by higher headquarters to not touch it with a 40' pole as mentioned above.

With all that being said. There is nothing wrong with asking. Make them tell you "no" so that you can get your answer.

Come back and update this thread so it may be a resource for someone in the future with similar circumstances.

[Marine1011]

There's nothing "wrong" with asking, but it is similar to asking the question can I join with 10 felonies? or, can I join if I am 100% disabled? Or can I join if I have no idea how to count to five? This is what I mean by these types of questions. The answers should be obvious ahead of time.

[Marine1011]

But for some reason, the answers are apparently not obvious. So, ask away.

[Hammer]

There's nothing "wrong" with asking, but it is similar to asking the question can I join with 10 felonies? or, can I join if I am 100% disabled? Or can I join if I have no idea how to count to five? This is what I mean by these types of questions. The answers should be obvious ahead of time.

Well, I have a couple of questions, I would like to ask Marine 1011!

I'm seventy years old; overweight; Nam Vet;use a cpap machine; been through Boot Camp at PI in 1963; have no tat's; a member of the VA; a member of the VFW; ride a Harley; never tried to commit suicide(I'm to chicken **** to do that);
don't want to go recon; just a Marine.

My questions are: Can I re-enlist and does the Corps have electrical outlets where I can plug my c-pap in or does that require a waiver?

[Marine1011]

Hammer3, this is not one of those questions referred to above. This is legit. Of course, with no tattoo you may not be able to get in. You need a tattoo, THEN a waiver, then have it removed, then come on in. They have a special Old Timer's Battalion these days where the minimum age is 65, you are not allowed to be in great condition (automatic DQ at MEPS), and your not wanting Recon is a definite mark against you. Everyone wants Ricky Recon these days, and your not wanting it may show a poor attitude. But yes, you can enlist, and the Corps does have electrical outlets for your convenience, and you may opt to do refresher boot camp entirely online, without ever leaving the comfort of your own home. AND you start out as a Gunny (E-7).

[Hammer]

Hammer3, this is not one of those questions referred to above. This is legit. Of course, with no tattoo you may not be able to get in. You need a tattoo, THEN a waiver, then have it removed, then come on in. They have a special Old Timer's Battalion these days where the minimum age is 65, you are not allowed to be in great condition (automatic DQ at MEPS), and your not wanting Recon is a definite mark against you. Everyone wants Ricky Recon these days, and your not wanting it may show a poor attitude. But yes, you can enlist, and the Corps does have electrical outlets for your convenience, and you may opt to do refresher boot camp entirely online, without ever leaving the comfort of your own home. AND you start out as a Gunny (E-7).

Starting out as a
Gunny is good; however; I would like to be an E-8 First Sergeant and with a guarantee that I could be a Sergeant Major . If the Corps is now days giving out choices and guaranteeing for enlisting; I figure they could accommodate my request. Otherwise, I'll just stay retired, drink my wine, and dream about women I'll never have, and the good ole days when the Corps was the Corps, and not all the crap that
Recruiters have to put up with. This waiver crap is sickening!

[Marine1011]

Hammer, no one in his right mind is going to turn you away over a dispute over something like E-7 or E-8. Consider E-8 as a done deal. Now, staying retired, drinking wine, and dreaming about women is something I did while I was IN, coincidentally.

[hurstfarms]

Hah, I'd say Hammer has about the same chance of getting in as me. But this is everything to me. If I saw some kid trying to get in with a record like mine, i'd say no way in hell. But when i'm old i'd rather say I did everything I could and was denied than stay home and be lazy. Like you said, no harm in asking.. and i'm sure there are a few Marines out there who are glad that they asked. I'd bet money that every Marine wouldn't be who they are today if they were turned down at the gate.

The Marine recruiters around here are pretty young guys and from the word, not necessarily recommended. My brother is in Air Force basic right now and will come back to work with our local Air Force recruiter who is a buddy of his. (i'm not sure what the program is, but he'll just be an assistant for a few weeks after tech school while he's waiting to get stationed) I'd figure this would be a good time to try, I know this recruiter personally and my brother will be working there are the station to help me out. That would also allow me to put some more time in between the incident and now. It's not the Marine Corps.. but it's serving..

[hurstfarms]

Also the process of getting those medical records changed is looking good, at least my doctor says so. I wouldn't try to enlist with "Suicide attempt" in big bold letters, "Adjustment disorder with disturbance of conduct" sounds a lot better.

[USMC 2571]

Well, you're right about the fact that serving is serving, no matter what branch. We all feel like that. Good luck to you, and keep us posted here.

[Phantom Blooper]

John Smith was the only Protestant to move into a large Catholic neighborhood. On the first Friday of Lent, John was outside grilling a big juicy steak on his grill.


Meanwhile, all of his neighbors were eating cold tuna fish for supper. This went on each Friday of Lent. On the last Friday of Lent, the neighborhood men got together and decided that something had to be done about John; he was tempting them to eat meat each Friday of Lent, and they couldn't take it anymore.

They decided to try and convert John to be a Catholic. They went over and talked to him and were so happy that he decided to join all of his neighbors and become a Catholic. They took him to church, and the priest sprinkled some water over him, and said, "You were born a Baptist, you were raised a Baptist, and now you are a Catholic."

The men were so relieved, now their biggest Lenten temptation was resolved.

The next year's Lenten season rolled around. The first Friday of Lent came, and just at supper time, when the neighbor were sitting down to their tuna fish dinner, there came the wafting smell of steak cooking on a grill.

The neighborhood men could not believe their noses! What was going on? They called each other up and decided to meet over in John's yard to see if he had forgotten it was the first Friday of Lent.

The group arrived just in time to see John standing over his grill with a small pitcher of water. He was sprinkling some water over his steak on the grill, saying, "You were born a cow, you were raised a cow, and now you are a fish."



The reason for the joke is too show that one can change the words but it means the same thing. Your brother knowing and being friendly with the Air Force recruiter and going on "Recruiters Assistance Program" after his basic training, should not have any bearing on whether or not that AF's branch or any branch will except you. As stated above the criteria for all branches are the same.

You can try...but changing the wording is not masking the original symptom's.


An adjustment disorder (AD) (sometimes called exogenous, reactive, or situational depression)[1] occurs when an individual is unable to adjust to or cope with a particular stressor, like a major life event. Since people with this disorder normally have symptoms that depressed people do, such as general loss of interest, feelings of hopelessness and crying, this disorder is sometimes known as situational depression. Unlike major depression the disorder is caused by an outside stressor and generally resolves once the individual is able to adapt to the situation.[2] One hypothesis for adjustment disorder is that it may represent a sub-threshold clinical syndrome.[3]

Signs and symptoms
According to the DSM IV-TR, the development of the emotional or behavioral symptoms of this diagnosis have to occur within three months of the onset of the identifiable stressor

Some emotional signs of adjustment disorder are:

Sadness
Hopelessness
Lack of enjoyment
Crying spells
Nervousness
Anxiety
Worry
Desperation
Trouble sleeping
Difficulty concentrating
Feeling overwhelmed and thoughts of suicide

Although you say you are over it I would venture to say any recruiter any branch will not enlist you......knowing the situation .

Good luck to you though......however I would caution you not to ride on your brothers service.

[USMC 2571]

Good post as always, Chuck.

[LCPL1341]

Lmao @ people who think the Air Force is somehow less selective. Sure their bootcamp is easier, and they're not combat oriented like the Marine Corps, but they're actually pretty selective in their recruiting. The stuff I posted earlier is standard throughout the DoD.

[USMC 2571]

I was thinking the same thing...the Army would be his best bet. The Air Force does in fact, as you stated, have high standards like the Corps.

[Phantom Blooper]

I am not in the here and now.....but from speaking to all Armed Forces recruiter a few years ago the Army is most lenient with some things....although they can bend but can't break the rules set forth by the DOD.....like tattoos' and I think that policy has changed.....but mental health and physical issues the guidelines are solid.

[USMC 2571]

ahhh, didn't know that, Chuck. I knew about the tattoos and maybe I thought they would be more lenient with other things.....

[Phantom Blooper]

and maybe I thought they would be more lenient with other things.....


My information dates back at least 6 or more years....when we were writing motivational letters to recruits....recruiters told me if they did decide to pursue a Poolee applicant and waivers are needed.......a mental health applicant with medicine stopped for a year has a better chance at a waiver....since it was the norm to put a kid on drugs for ADH when these young men were raised...to keep them sane from life's problems (provided he didn't grow breasts) than to waiver someone with visible signs of self mutilation and "suicide/adjustment disorder.....as with most everything else in this forum section..........see a recruiter for the real scoop!

[hurstfarms]

Oh, no, no. I understand that going to a different branch will not help me. Referring to LCPL's post about going into the fine print, but that I actually need to find a recruiter that will put in the work to get me to MEPS. Like I said, if I can get to a psych eval, i'll be content even if i'm DQ'd. That's why I want to go to the AF recruiter that I know personally and my brother will be an assistant there to at the very least encourage this recruiter that we both know to do all he can.

I completely understand my chances of getting in. All I want to do is do everything I possibly can. I'm sure if you all went back and had an obstacle preventing you from joining the military, you would do everything you could before simply giving up. I know my situation and my story and I honestly my believe my chances are above 0%. Even if it's .1%, it's still a chance.

Thank you Phantom for the information and USMC2751 for the luck.

[hurstfarms]

Also I'd like to say... My situation is - unique.. I've never been depressed or thought about suicide before. I have never even really been sad for a very long period of time, not even an entire day or anything like that. And when I am sad, it's never affected what I do or say or how I act. This false "suicide attempt" wasn't born out of emotion or not being able to handle things or not wanting to live anymore. I know this doesn't matter to the military or the DOD, but i'm just letting you all know so you have a better frame of reference. That's why it's frustrating. If I knew it would have caused this much trouble, I wouldn't have done it. But I did it, and now i'm here to accept the consequences (not without fighting them though)
I just thought i'd let you know, whoever cares to read.

[USMC 2571]

Two quick points---even if a "suicide attempt" is not a "real" one, it still shows SOME issue, some issue of some kind....not only that, but how are unbiased individuals supposed to differentiate between real and fake suicide attempts? They can't. So, they don't take chances with folks who have that kind of history, even if it's a one time thing--------as I always say here---200 people looking for a job, 100 have issues of one kind or another---there are twenty openings. Why would an employer even look at the group that has issues when they have another 100 people with no issues?