What does that photograph by Joe Rosenthal really Mean?

[usmc987332]

The answer to your question is; Joe Rosenthal had no idea he had an historic photo when he forwarded his film thru channels. Somebody way back in the rear (things took a lot longer going thru channels then) liked the picture and published it. The PUBLIC loved it, that made it historic.

Read the book "Flags of our Father" by John Bradley Jr. ( He is the son of Phm2 John Bradley one of the flag raisers.) Its a good book and tells the whole story.

I had heard the story as a kid, from my father and God father, both were Corpsmen on Iwo.They served together on Saipan, Tinian, and Iwo Jima. They both new John Bradley. I buried my father in May he was my hero, they were all my heros, and the reason I became a Corpsman (1st Mar Div, Vietnam 1968)

Anyone who has any questions about the Flag Raising on Iwo Jima (1st and 2nd) should read this book!

Doc Tobin

It sounds like your father and God father were both in the Fourth Division. Am I right? Iwo Jima was the only battle for the Fifth Division. Many of the Fifth Division men were former Raiders or Paramarines and served in the Solomons, but none were on Saipan or Tinian. The Fourth Division participated in the taking of Saipan and Tinian.

I started this thread for the purpose of finding out if there were those young Marines who thought that second flag raising was a sham. When Rosenthal sent his films, you are right, but later when he sent text on the flag raising from Guam, he called the first flag an incident and not a flag raising. Evidently someone had gotten to him and instructed him not to refer to the first flag raising.

In one of their articles, Life Magazine gave a very good description of both events.

Please read this entire thread, and I think it will give you an understanding of what went on, and why I raised the issue (I hope.)

[Doc Tobin]

Bob,
You are correct on all accounts! My father and God father were both in the Fourth Division. They worked with John Bradley at the Oakland Naval Hospital prior to shipping out to the Pacific.
Like Bradley, my father never talked about the war. All I ever got were bits and pieces that I managed to pry out of him, along with some humorous stories from my God Father. I found some pictures he had of Iwo and other places and used to sneak them to school to show my friends.( In those days almost every boy was the son of a WWII vet.) And as I look back, I never knew many Vets who liked to talk about their experiences, and none that bragged about them. They are truly a great generation of men.
As you suggested, I have come across a few younger marines (and others)who thought the second flag raising was staged or posed. That myth has it roots in the confusion of war and the slower more primative means of communication used at the time. I know you have researched the story more than I and are more familiar with the details. The mis-naming of one of the marines when first published caused alot of trouble.
There is a young woman (ex-marine) who works with me and she was telling me one day that the second flag raising was staged. I asked her where she got that idea and she replied her father knew one of the marines who raised the first flag. I explained the story to her and gave her my copy of' "Flags of our Fathers". She liked it so much she passed it on to her father, and I haven't seen it since...lol! I don't know what they teach young Marines today, but the kids coming out of high school and colleges are almost completely ignorant about history. And that scares me.
Some say Bradley did not want to talk about the flag raising because he didn't feel he deserved a medal for it (And thats true, none of them did, it was an insignificant event for them). I don't know what Bradley was awarded the Navy Cross for, (you probably do) but I have always been under the impression it was for other action... correct me if I am wrong. They did more heroric things every day they were on that island.
Bradley, like my father were haunted by other memories of Iwo Jima. He did not want me to join the Marines or become a corpsman. There were so many dead and dying marines on Iwo's beaches that they were buried in mass graves. My father who was only 20 yrs old, was shown how to tag and embalm the bodies of dead Marines then lay them in trenches dug by bulldozers. They were still bringing those boys home when I went to Vietnam.
I took my father to see "Flags of our Fathers", at the end they show actual film footage of the battle. And there is footage of the Marines being buried. I'll never forget the expression on my fathers face, as he watched. He didn't say anything...he didn't have to... I knew!

Semper Fi

Doc Tobin (the 2nd)

[usmc987332]

Bob,
You are correct on all accounts! My father and God father were both in the Fourth Division. They worked with John Bradley at the Oakland Naval Hospital prior to shipping out to the Pacific.
Like Bradley, my father never talked about the war. All I ever got were bits and pieces that I managed to pry out of him, along with some humorous stories from my God Father. I found some pictures he had of Iwo and other places and used to sneak them to school to show my friends.( In those days almost every boy was the son of a WWII vet.) And as I look back, I never knew many Vets who liked to talk about their experiences, and none that bragged about them. They are truly a great generation of men.
As you suggested, I have come across a few younger marines (and others)who thought the second flag raising was staged or posed. That myth has it roots in the confusion of war and the slower more primative means of communication used at the time. I know you have researched the story more than I and are more familiar with the details. The mis-naming of one of the marines when first published caused alot of trouble.
There is a young woman (ex-marine) who works with me and she was telling me one day that the second flag raising was staged. I asked her where she got that idea and she replied her father knew one of the marines who raised the first flag. I explained the story to her and gave her my copy of' "Flags of our Fathers". She liked it so much she passed it on to her father, and I haven't seen it since...lol! I don't know what they teach young Marines today, but the kids coming out of high school and colleges are almost completely ignorant about history. And that scares me.
Some say Bradley did not want to talk about the flag raising because he didn't feel he deserved a medal for it (And thats true, none of them did, it was an insignificant event for them). I don't know what Bradley was awarded the Navy Cross for, (you probably do) but I have always been under the impression it was for other action... correct me if I am wrong. They did more heroric things every day they were on that island.
Bradley, like my father were haunted by other memories of Iwo Jima. He did not want me to join the Marines or become a corpsman. There were so many dead and dying marines on Iwo's beaches that they were buried in mass graves. My father who was only 20 yrs old, was shown how to tag and embalm the bodies of dead Marines then lay them in trenches dug by bulldozers. They were still bringing those boys home when I went to Vietnam.
I took my father to see "Flags of our Fathers", at the end they show actual film footage of the battle. And there is footage of the Marines being buried. I'll never forget the expression on my fathers face, as he watched. He didn't say anything...he didn't have to... I knew!

Semper Fi

Doc Tobin (the 2nd)

Doc,

Let me get just a little off center first. I don't know whether you are aware of it or not, but the Fourth Division was fighting a much tougher battle in the early days of the conflict than the Fifth. As you know, it took the 28th Marines just five days to win Suribachi because we were not fighting the best soldiers on the island. The Fourth Division was up against the best from day one and had an uphill fight all the way. It is ashamed that a single photograph netted the Fifth Division most of the glory.

I think without the Rosenthal photograph, the history of the battle would be looked at with a much different light. The photograph grabbed America's attention, so it took very little manipulation on the part of the Treasurer Department to turn the photograph into the most important event of the battle. Life Magazine, for instance, had the complete story of what had actually transpired. By closing a few doors and ignoring that first flag raising accomplished miriacles. That Seventh War Bond campaign was the most successful of all the fund raisings.

I don't know if you read my theory on John Bradley hiding his Navy Cross from the world. I think he felt he was given the award to make him a big hero for the fund raising. There is little doubt he earned the award. I don't know who wrote him up for the award, but the incident occured on February 21, two days before the flag raising. It would be interesting to know the date of the recommendation, but it really makes no difference. He earned the award.

By the way, the Corpsmen and Seabees are my heroes. I had a first cousin who was an Army medic in the Korean conflict. He was awarded the Silver Star posthumously for his actions.

[Doc Tobin]

Bob,

You've probably seen this picture... but, I thought I would share it here.
This is a picture of John Wayne and John Bradley, taken during the filming of "Sands of Iwo Jima".

[usmc987332]

Bob,

You've probably seen this picture... but, I thought I would share it here.
This is a picture of John Wayne and John Bradley, taken during the filming of "Sands of Iwo Jima".

Attachment 8925

Yes, I've watched the movie several times, simply because it was a John Wayne movie. As far as being a good movie on Iwo, personally, I did not think it was a good movie. I still love John Wayne, and if he is going to be in it, I'll watch it.

[Doc Tobin]

Yes, I've watched the movie several times, simply because it was a John Wayne movie. As far as being a good movie on Iwo, personally, I did not think it was a good movie. I still love John Wayne, and if he is going to be in it, I'll watch it.

Sounds just like something Dad would say. He didn't think Sands of Iwo Jima was very good either but he liked John Wayne. He didn't think Flags of our Fathers was that good either... But then no movie is as good as the book or the real thing. I have yet to see a movie on Vietnam that I like.

[usmc987332]

Sounds just like something Dad would say. He didn't think Sands of Iwo Jima was very good either but he liked John Wayne. He didn't think Flags of our Fathers was that good either... But then no movie is as good as the book or the real thing. I have yet to see a movie on Vietnam that I like.

I will disagree with your father on "Flags of Our Fathers". The book and the movie both were about the men whose lives were touched by the two flag raisings and not the battle itself. James Bradley's research of the battle itself was a little weak, but what he was after was the story of the men involved. I think both the book and the movie were excellent.

Now, "Letters" is an entirely a different story.

[Jarhead5811]

My Grandfather was a machine gunner in Co A, 1st Bn, 27th Marines, 5th Marine Division. In spite of a general lack of encouragement from him I joined the Corps In '93 and he was present at my graduation on Parris Island on October 15th 1993. While I was home on leave after boot camp he went though all of his old Marine Corps stuff and as it turns out he joined the Corps on October 15th 1943!

I got a chance to visit Iwo Jima in 1998 and it was the most amazing expirience. I rank that day in the top five days of my life. Ranking only behind the day I accepted Christ as my saviour, the day my wife and I married, the birth of my son and the day a couple of weeks after when I handed my Grandad a small bag of "sand" (more like aquarium rocks) from "red" beach. He looked at it and said "you went there?" I told him I had and gave him several rolls of film from the trip. He went straight out and got it developed andbuss 8x10s made of the three shots that had me in them. He, in spite of being pretty sick, seemed so in readably proud that I got to go. I was only in the states to attend Military Police Investigator School and was back in Japan when he passed away a few months later.

But getting back on topic; I was Googleing Hogan's Goats and came across this thread. I think the average Marine thinks the iconic image of the flag raising, no matter the circumstances behind it, is as much a symbol of the Corps at the Eagle, Globe and Anchor.

As an amateur photographer that has read "Flags of Our Fathers", all I can say is "WOW" one of the coolest photos ever taken was at best an afterthought at worst a lucky accident.

[Jarhead5811]

Duplicate post...sorry

[usmc987332]

My Grandfather was a machine gunner in Co A, 1st Bn, 27th Marines, 5th Marine Division. In spite of a general lack of encouragement from him I joined the Corps In '93 and he was present at my graduation on Parris Island on October 15th 1993. While I was home on leave after boot camp he went though all of his old Marine Corps stuff and as it turns out he joined the Corps on October 15th 1943!

I got a chance to visit Iwo Jima in 1998 and it was the most amazing expirience. I rank that day in the top five days of my life. Ranking only behind the day I accepted Christ as my saviour, the day my wife and I married, the birth of my son and the day a couple of weeks after when I handed my Grandad a small bag of "sand" (more like aquarium rocks) from "red" beach. He looked at it and said "you went there?" I told him I had and gave him several rolls of film from the trip. He went straight out and got it developed andbuss 8x10s made of the three shots that had me in them. He, in spite of being pretty sick, seemed so in readably proud that I got to go. I was only in the states to attend Military Police Investigator School and was back in Japan when he passed away a few months later.

But getting back on topic; I was Googleing Hogan's Goats and came across this thread. I think the average Marine thinks the iconic image of the flag raising, no matter the circumstances behind it, is as much a symbol of the Corps at the Eagle, Globe and Anchor.

As an amateur photographer that has read "Flags of Our Fathers", all I can say is "WOW" one of the coolest photos ever taken was at best an afterthought at worst a lucky accident.

Jake,

I walked over much of the ground your father walked. I landed at H+1 on Red Beach as a part of the 5th Shore Party. A Company 27th Marines was still within spitting distance when we landed. After four days, I joined the Machine Gun Platoon of B Company, 28th Marines. I was less then 200 yards from the base of Suribachi when the first flag went up. We had a ringside seat. Your father was further up on the western side of the island and didn't quite the view we did.

On February 28, we relieved the First Battalion of the 27th and took over the assault of Hill 362a. We were relieved from the lines on March 5 and rejoined the assault on March 8. The Divisioned on up the western side of the Island through the Badlands to capture Bloody Gorge and end the battle.

Did you get to rewalk the route the 27th took during the battle? I hope you did. I believe the Action Report of the First Battalion 27th Marines can be found on the inter-net. If you have a copy of the grid map, you can trace his journey step by step. I believe Chuck Tatum of B Company 27th has a good site you might want to look at.

A contact with any Iwo Marine or his relative is always a pleasure