Things that don't make sense...

[WXSgt]

1) The PFT. Wars are not fought in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers. How is evaluating someone's performance in that scenario a good of evaluation of if they are prepared for the rigors of combat?

2) The CFT. A huge improvement over the PFT, but why is it done with no gear on?

3) Rifle Qualification. Is it relevant at all to modern combat? You will never exchange fire without gear on and with your arm in a sling like you do on the range.

4) Emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp. Drill is important for ceremonies and marching is the only acceptable way to move squads and larger units around without looking like a big cluster****. But why is there such a huge emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp instead of combat training or PT? I've read several things concerning Drill and most claim that learning Drill improves the morale of the unit and conditions Marines to instantly obey commands. The latter part I agree with, but in my experience, most of my platoon was only concerned about Drill because our SDI was really into it.

I'd greatly appreciate the insight of senior Marines, especially those who have done DI tours and/or have combat experience.

Rifle trainning has been augmented with Combat marksmanship wearing full gear and all so its good now and drill is to instil discipline in your nasty body straight from the drill manual:

"The object of close order drill is to teach Marines by exercise to
obey orders and to do so immediately in the correct way. Close order
drill is one foundation of discipline and esprit de corps.
Additionally, it is still one of the finest methods for developing
confidence and troop leading abilities in our subordinate leaders."

[Quinbo]

Forehead slapping face palm ..... sigh
One of the purposes of close order drill is that Marines can readily assume any combat formation with minimal instruction. Why the hell do you think you drill with rifles? It is the basic level of being told to do whatever in patrolling or a parade.

[WXSgt]

Forehead slapping face palm ..... sigh
One of the purposes of close order drill is that Marines can readily assume any combat formation with minimal instruction. Why the hell do you think you drill with rifles? It is the basic level of being told to do whatever in patrolling or a parade.

there was a reference to assuming combat formations as well in the drill manual lol

[Covey_Rider]

So question, how can you say that the PFT is not a good judge of a Marines fitness for combat, if you have never been to combat???

[Quinbo]

You said it Covey

[MeierT]

So question, how can you say that the PFT is not a good judge of a Marines fitness for combat, if you have never been to combat???

I don't know. Maybe because it is completely different than running around with full gear on? The difference in physical strain is pretty obvious?

Yes, the way basic marksmanship is taught will improve your shooting. But why is there such a huge emphasis on 'hollywood' shooting over learning to deliver, rapid, accurate fire at moving targets from short distances?


I think a lot of you misunderstand me. I don't think that there shouldn't be a PFT or marksmanship training. I think it should be improved. Why not instead of the PFT require a hike in an existance load that must be completed at a minimum speed of 4 mph? Instead of pull ups and crunches, introduce a combat obstacle course that must be done in a combat load out.

[Quinbo]

This suggestion is coming from a hump drop. Ok rambo .... go get a job at burger king and have it your way.

[Old Marine]

I don't know. Maybe because it is completely different than running around with full gear on? The difference in physical strain is pretty obvious?

Yes, the way basic marksmanship is taught will improve your shooting. But why is there such a huge emphasis on 'hollywood' shooting over learning to deliver, rapid, accurate fire at moving targets from short distances?


I think a lot of you misunderstand me. I don't think that there shouldn't be a PFT or marksmanship training. I think it should be improved. Why not instead of the PFT require a hike in an existance load that must be completed at a minimum speed of 4 mph? Instead of pull ups and crunches, introduce a combat obstacle course that must be done in a combat load out.

Many years ago before you were born, the CMC test used to be just what you are advocating.

Some General decided to change it over to the PFT. i imagine he must have seen a track meet on TV and he decided that the Marine Corps should have a track team. Thus, it is what it is.

[MeierT]

This suggestion is coming from a hump drop. Ok rambo .... go get a job at burger king and have it your way.

A hump drop? lmao

No, I was one of the headlights for the 15k in MCT.

Really got to admire people who insult you instead of debating.

Let's see, 3 of my Combat Instructors, Marines who have been over there, all said the PFT was a joke/BS.

Who cares if the 5'3" 120lb Marine can out run the 5'10" 170lb Marine if the former falls out under the weight of his gear.

[MeierT]

Many years ago before you were born, the CMC test used to be just what you are advocating.

Some General decided to change it over to the PFT. i imagine he must have seen a track meet on TV and he decided that the Marine Corps should have a track team. Thus, it is what it is.

Thanks for that info GySgt. Sounds like another General wanted to leave his mark.

[Zulu 36]

Many years ago before you were born, the CMC test used to be just what you are advocating.

Some General decided to change it over to the PFT. i imagine he must have seen a track meet on TV and he decided that the Marine Corps should have a track team. Thus, it is what it is.

That general was Gen. Cushman, CMC. I remember the jokes going around at the time (as I was in when the PFT changed). The joke was the new PFT was going to be three-laps around Cushman (if you recall, he was rather over-weight while CMC).

People were all play acting scared like the three-laps were going to be too demanding and painful. Pretty funny.

The CMC-PRT when I took it, did involve a three-mile run, pullups, situps, a jump-and-reach, and some other events I can't remember any more (push ups and standing broad jump rings a bell).

[AlohaMarine]

In the Civilian world, no one makes you run ANYWHERE.

Reason #1,214

[Covey_Rider]

I don't know. Maybe because it is completely different than running around with full gear on? The difference in physical strain is pretty obvious?

Y

Yes, running a PFT is different then running around with full gear. Running around in full gear is also a lot different then running around with a combat load. So where do you draw the line? Conditioning is conditioning...running long distances WILL prepare you physically for having to work with a combat load. You also don't take into consideration the damage that running with gear on will do to a Marines body. Do you really want to break Marines before they deploy?

[Sgt Leprechaun]

First, this is the sort of question that, believe it or not, gets debated every so often in the pages of the Marine Corps Gazette. Doing so helps us to improve 'as a Corps' and also to educate. While I understand some of the brickbats being tossed, it's sometimes not a bad thing to evaluate ones own doctrine from time to time. Lets keep our responses in that particular line. I'm not barking at anyone but if we can't 'debate ourselves' from time to time, 'we' never get any better.

*****

1) The PFT. Wars are not fought in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers. How is evaluating someone's performance in that scenario a good of evaluation of if they are prepared for the rigors of combat?


It's not designed, and never was, to evaluate that. It was designed to evaluate overall 'fitness'. Long before your time, General Cushman decided the old fashioned CFT/PT test (done with combat load, full marching order and pack, etc etc) was outmoded. It wasn't just a whim but the question has been asked, and was asked then. I don't have a good answer, except to say that it evaluates 'overall fitness'. Humps with 120 pound packs, field problems, etc., all evaluate 'combat fitness'.



2) The CFT. A huge improvement over the PFT, but why is it done with no gear on?

Likely as not, to minimize injury in a training environment. Much as we might like it to be otherwise, commanders are responsible (and have to do scads of reports to safety, the CG, etc etc) whenever a Marine gets hurt in training. Get enough injuries, the training gets changed. It's called Risk Management.

3) Rifle Qualification. Is it relevant at all to modern combat? You will never exchange fire without gear on and with your arm in a sling like you do on the range.

The object is to TEACH 'basic marksmanship' and to improve on basic marksmanship. It's not to do combat marksmanship. It also works on muscle memory, the theory being that your muscles will 'remember' all those positions, which have been tried and true and developed over time. When the crap hits the fan, they'll (your muscles) will 'remember'. Now, you are incorrect as far as the 'arm in a sling' thing. Currently we are engaging targets in Afghanistan at MUCH longer distances than any Marine has in decades. Decades. Our weaponry isn't designed for that. To overcome, you need those 'long range' skills.



4) Emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp. Drill is important for ceremonies and marching is the only acceptable way to move squads and larger units around without looking like a big cluster****. But why is there such a huge emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp instead of combat training or PT? I've read several things concerning Drill and most claim that learning Drill improves the morale of the unit and conditions Marines to instantly obey commands. The latter part I agree with, but in my experience, most of my platoon was only concerned about Drill because our SDI was really into it.

Because, quite simply, you have to learn to take orders without thinking about it. Drill teaches that. And it's our tradition. The instantly obeying commands thing is correct. And the SDI probably could give a rip, but a crappy looking drilling platoon poorly reflects on him. Therefore...well, you get the picture.



I'd greatly appreciate the insight of senior Marines, especially those who have done DI tours and/or have combat experience.


I've done no DI tour, and my 'combat' consists of the Pentagon on 9/11. But I've spent years on the 'thin blue line' and have been a student of history for well over 20 years. Take the opine for what its' worth.

[advanced]

The PFT changed back in 1967. I went through PI being trained under the old way. We had to take the old PFT every 3 months in full gear, helmet, rifle, back pack, boots etc. There was a fireman's carry and the step-ups were a killer. I think we had to do the 3 mile run in full gear in 36 minutes, when they changed the PFT to no gear, I believe they shortened the time to 26 min's.

Though we used a sling at the range at PI, that was just to teach us how to shoot. Who else shoots at 500 yards with peep sights. Many other combat ranges did just as you suggest. Full combat gear, we did hip firing, moving and pop-up targets. We called them John Wayne courses. And the forced marches, I was a squad leader (up front), from the 3rd guy back everyone else had to run the whole way. The stress fractures.

Close order drill, besides all the discipline and spontaneous obedience to orders everyone is filled with a sense of being an intricate part of the whole. It is a thing of beauty to watch a Marine squad or platoon in combat fall in on line in a defensive or offensive position, with everyone "just" knowing where and what to do, and automatically being in the proper place for outputting the most formidable devastating fire-power you can imagine.

I don't know what they teach today but we were taught that if you walked into an ambush you were already within the enemy's killing zone. To dig in did not remove the threat. Therefore, we were taught that to remove ourselves from this killing zone we were to advance on line (close order drill training here) and into the threat to remove it. I must admit this was sometimes easier said than done.

Though Marine Corps training may not make much sense to the inexperienced; look at the results it has produced. Of course it's not all training, we've always had to add in some blood and guts from some fine Marines.