Chain-of-command question

[SDL]

Hmm... where should I start? Okay, I got it! It goes something like this...

This is my current understanding of an ideal small unit.

[SAME AS BELOW] >--------SSGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT >--SSGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT >--SSGT >--GYSGT >---(& beyond)
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT >--SSGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL
LCPL x3 --CPL >--SGT
LCPL x3 --CPL
[SAME AS ABOVE] >--------SSGT

In the structure illustrated above, the chain-of-command flow is obvious. But what the chain is deviant of such flow?

I am part of an air-wing reserve unit. With that being the case, our small unit command structure looks nothing like the above...

(Color-coded by MOS)

--------CPL* SGT*
--------CPL* >-----SGT*
LCPL*
LCPL*
LCPL* SSGT
LCPL*------------------------SSGT*
--------CPL*-------------------------------GYSGT---------(& beyond)
-------------------SGT*-----SSGT
-------------------SGT
LCPL*-------------SGT
LCPL*

* = Reservist

My questions for the more seasoned Marine is: How would the flow of the chain-of-command be by default in this scenario? Now I understand that there is a thing that implies billetsupercedes rank. And authority can be delegated by the higher-ups regardless of rank (like the GYSGT can give a locked-on CPL authority over the SGTs, etc if he deems appropriate). We (as LCPLs) have been told different things as whom we should go first if we have regular problems, issues, and concerns. Some say that we should go to the next rank above, regardless of MOS. Some even go as far as saying that we should to reservist CPLs first. I've heard others say go directly to your immediate authority, based on MOS, regardless of rank or component (like if I were MOS, I would go straight to the SGT rather than to a [reserve] CPL).

Personally to me, the latter seems to make more sense. The problem I've been seeing in our shop is that with the first concept, authority is so decentralized. For example, one CPL will tell us to do something this way, and another will tell us to do it that way. And the the two CPLs confront, there is a clash in authority and leadership. Being that our manpower structure is so unevenly distributed, I've always thought that only one Marine should be delegated per rank per MOS. That way there would only be one centralized authority per small unit--which would necessitate the other Marine who may the the same rank as the Marine in charge to back off and step down a level to keep everything in order. Thus, our shop would look more like this...

(Color-coded by MOS)

CPL*
CPL* >-----SGT*
SGT*
LCPL*
LCPL*
LCPL* >-----SSGT
LCPL* --------------- >---------GYSGT >----(& beyond)
SSGT*
CPL*
SGT* >-----SSGT
SGT
LCPL* >-----SGT
LCPL*

* = Reservist > = Centralized authority

I'm pretty sure a lot of you all seasoned Marines have seen our predicament before. While many INI Marines say that when it comes to two Marines who are equally ranked, the active duty Marine always supercedes the reservist. And that makes sense to me for the most part. I've also heard that the INI Marines within a reserve unit operate COMPLETELY independent for the reservists, which is used to justify the "always go to a reserve leadership rather than the active duty leadership." Still yet, I've heard that when it comes to chain-of-command in a reserve unit, INI vs. SMCR is irrelevent, since the whole unit does not differentiate between active and reserve.

What's more confusing is that I heard that air-wing squadrons are structured differently than ground units. What are your thoughts on this? I mean, by default, what is the correct flow of authority based on the Marines we have at our shop? I would really like to be enlightened by more experienced Marines regarding this. Thanks!

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Semper Fidelis

[Sergeant M]

You spent alot of time on those diagrams. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. I believe that everyone is assigned a "mentor" nowadays. Talk to him. If he can't help you out, then go above his head. I've dealt with reservists and I would say your best bet to get something done would be to talk to an active duty Marine. Not saying anything about about your Reservists.

[SDL]

You spent alot of time on those diagrams. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. I believe that everyone is assigned a "mentor" nowadays. Talk to him. If he can't help you out, then go above his head. I've dealt with reservists and I would say your best bet to get something done would be to talk to an active duty Marine. Not saying anything about about your Reservists.

I agree completely! Reserve leadership are generally as clueless as we are (it's not easy keeping up when you are both a Marine & civilian). I've heard (again), that that is one of the purpose of the INI personnel at a reserve unit. But our immediate leadership (the reservist) doesn't see it that way. We had a class about chain-of-command one day, the SGT was saying that if you break the chain, the staff and officers will think that "we're not taking care of you..." And the sad thing is that, it's EXACTLY what it is. Our immediate leadership aren't helping.

My question, I guess, is: Since I'm one of the LCPLs, based on my MOS, my immediate chain-of-command is someone who is higher than a CPL. Is it wrong for me to go directly to him? I've done this before and the the higher-up Marine didn't seem to mind. But the CPLs (as you can tell, we have no active duty CPLs) were ****ed off and always lecture me that they need to know about it before I go pass a CPL. And I've done it before, going through them first. And 100% of the time, they could not help (which is understandable, in their defense) and had to turn around and talk to a SGT. So real quick again, do you all think it is structurally (politics aside) wrong for me to just go directly to "my" SGT when I have a problem, rather playing the game of going to a CPL first?

[Sergeant M]

Well, as a Corporal, I would say go to a Cpl first. You'd be surprised at how much we can actually help you out. Even if we do end up going to our Sgts for advice it's always best to keep thing resolved furthest down the chain of command. This is also good practice for when you begin picking up rank and have to do likewise. If you keep your Corporals working for you, then they'll know the answers the next time someone else asks.

[JWDevilDog]

You wouldn't have to worry about whether you go to a Cpl or a Sgt if you would just hurry up and get promoted! Then you'd always go to a Sgt.

Hahah, just kidding. Well, the Cpl's advice in this matter is sound, from what I can tell. Try using the Cpls, Active Duty if possible preferably. In an Active Duty unit, us Junior Marines press the Cpls everyday when we need something done. Not rudely, but just remind them or ask the status. A safe practice is if you do this, and after about a week or so, nothing happens (IE your issue isn't resolved), then go to a Sgt and explain that the Cpl isn't helping, but make sure you do it tactfully.

Now, I wouldn't be able to clue you into how Reserve units work, because you may not even be around your Cpls long enough at a time to ask them everyday. But in a normal Active Duty unit, what I said is probably how sh*t happens. At least in my shop that's the case.

[GIrene]

I can understand being a winger as well (active though) how your chain is all gaffed up.

I mean I have a SGT that in charge of 3-4 CPLs and then each of us is in turn in charge of 2 non-rates. There's about 2-3 groups like that and then a AM2 safeguarding the AM3s who each look over the non-rate sailors in the shop. (We're a combined Marine/Navy Command) Naturally half of us fall under one SSGT the other half under another. Thats for the mentoring program.

Great when both my mentees work the opposite shift from me too.

Toss on top of that that you have a Shift Supervisor (Possibly a SGT or one of the CPL's, whoever has a CDI/CDQAR), a shop supervisor (which could be the same person), and then the SNCOIC. Normally we try and work the chain on both sides to keep everyone in the loop.

I'd say stay safe and use the mentorship program its just as much a CoC and is there to be used anyways. Like everyone else said, when in doubt ask your Corporals. Its a good thing not to go over your superior's heads. Even if they have to go somewhere to get an answer or they don't know the answer its a sign of respect to at least keep them in the loop. Its like ccing them an email not really intended for them, but for their information so they can stay up to date on whats going on with you.

[stein07]

My reserve unit (wing) for the most part had two distinct chains of command: one for the I&I staff and one for the reservists. Each had a separate commander, etc. Many times there are open billets, so sometimes not all the slots are filled.

Personally, I would have always followed the reserve chain, but you need to use your good judgment. If there are I&I corporals that are supervising you, then work it through them or better yet, ask those Marines these same questions and see what they say. Our I&I staff, for the most part, tried to step back and let the reserve chain of command lead, but it probably works differently at different units.

[Pete0331]

I have no idea what any of that means.

Just a tip if you revise this idea, and you probably should, start off with your purpose.
After you establish the purpose of what you are trying to achieve, establish and define the problem, and how you propose to fix it.
Starting with the charts is confusing, and those aren't the most orienting charts either.

[Alisium]

Chain of command makes more sense when you go by billet instead of rank.

What's your unit and MOS?

And like my brother above said, I have no idea what you have up there, but I would really like to.

[Alisium]

Re-reading your post,

Unless you're doing some kind of work under I&I direction, or some working party and an I&I Marine is placed over you, temporarily, they are completely outside of your chain of command.

The I&I staff is there to provide a framework and necessary support for your unit to do it's job. At least, that's how I remembered it with 4th LAR.

Bar all that, go with billet. You'll never go wrong. Never!

[PaidinBlood]

I have no idea what any of that means.

Just a tip if you revise this idea, and you probably should, start off with your purpose.
After you establish the purpose of what you are trying to achieve, establish and define the problem, and how you propose to fix it.
Starting with the charts is confusing, and those aren't the most orienting charts either.

Whew~I was starting to feel like moron looking at that thing...
Well..not ruling anything out...

[ArtyOps]

So, If I understand your graphic there... MineThatBird is in the lead?

Seriously, Have you looked at you unit's T/O (Table of Organization)? That's normally where the intended breakdown of your unit is laid out.

Now that being said. When I deployed to Iraq last time I was a Battery Operations Chief. That is a SSgt billet with an MOS of 0848. I was a Sgt 0844. I don't remember the exact T/O, I know I rated 2 (more) Sergeants, 2 Corporals and 4 Lance Corporals/below.

I had 4 Corporals and 4 Lance/below.

I informed the Corporals that because we were so far off of the T/O and since it was likely none of them would be promoted before we returned from deployment, that their positions in my FDC would be based solely on their ability to do my job.

I tought them classes on pretty much everything and tested their knowledge. During the first Field Op after we all got together I ran them through positions and there were two clear leaders. Immediately following that Field Op, we found out our Battery would be split into three platoons and spread out among 90 kilometers. So those two Corporal's each had their own Platoon FDC for the deployment. One of them was promoted to Sergeant two weeks after we got back. The other a few months later.

[hawks]

Infantry is easy - you have your:
rifleman --> fire team leader --> squad leader --> plt sgt --> co gunny --> etc

[Alisium]

Infantry is easy - you have your:
rifleman --> fire team leader --> squad leader --> plt sgt --> co gunny --> etc

Devil,

Your Co Gunny is outside of your chain of command. He's the logistics guru for you company.

He is in your company and senior to you so you listen but when you run things up the chain of command (request mast, leave chits etc... he's out of that chain.)

But you're right. The Infantry is much easier than many pog units would be, I guess. Probably, because our rank structure is designed for an infantry-esque military. POG units run differently, more like an office or mechanics shop. No reason for fire team leaders and such as one or two chiefs are all you need. It's a square peg in a round hole.

[JWDevilDog]

But you're right. The Infantry is much easier than many pog units would be, I guess. Probably, because our rank structure is designed for an infantry-esque military. POG units run differently, more like an office or mechanics shop. No reason for fire team leaders and such as one or two chiefs are all you need. It's a square peg in a round hole.

Typically I think you're right, but my pog unit does it very much like the grunts. We have:

Fireteam leader, squad leader, platoon Sergeant, and all the way up the chain.

Usually we have a platoon guide too, usually filled by a senior Corporal or Sergeant, but I have no idea where he actually fills into the chain.

We are always taught to go to the fireteam leader first (right now we have a bunch of LCpls filling those billets, because we are seriously lacking in NCOs at the moment).

In many ways, it very much resembles a grunt platoon in organization.