Would you use torture to save American lives?

[hrscowboy]

Thats the problem with things today RV Hall our young Men and Women cant fight a war like our For fathers did.. Now we have rules of engagement and imbedded media which is all bullcrap just to satisfy the liberals well as far as i am concerned if we send our children and grand children into a fight let them fight to win no holds barred. 413 million dolllars was spent by congressmen going to iraq just to see for themselves what our men and women where doing over there thats total BS thats 413 million dollars of tax payers money spent just so a dumb arse Congressman could say i was there.. 413 Million dollars could have bought alot more effective bullet proof vests for our troops and more up to date equipment..

[RVHall]

HRS Cowboy, I agree with much of your point. Back in Vietnam days, I heard that some of the guys back near DaNang had to go on patrol with safety's on. Don't know if that's true, but those sort of politician imposed restrictions that have no practical reason are B.S. indeed. Politicians should leave it to the military. And they should have the courage to risk their sorry careers and declare war so that there will be no budgetary restrictions. In Vietnam, especially during Jan-Feb '68, I couldn't get ammo, food, medivacs for some time due to the helis all being up and Khe Sanh, and we were nearly out of ammo and about to be overrun. Thank you politicians.

But there have been few wars if any, with the possible exception of some post Civil War (Cantrell's) raiders, where U. S. troops had a "no holds barred" entitlement. Like most of us, I have generations of veterans in my family. My grandfather guarded German prisoners in France during WWI, and told stories, and my uncles and cousins told many stories about WWII. I've heard about Korea from a gunny, and from others. And like many of us, I've read some of the many volumes about those wars. Looks to me like our "center of gravity" regarding what's acceptable behavior has drifted a long way from where it once was.

Yes, let's keep the politics out of it. But my opinion is that we shouldn't become fascists in the process of defeating them. We haven't had to in past wars, and we shouldn't have to now.

Looks like none of us Vietnam old guys can sleep at night.

[yellowwing]

Its a hard call that can't decided by politicians. A fine Army BN Commander lost his career for scaring an insurgent with his pistol. That's just dumb. Tactical.

But then you got the Gitmo thing. Strategic.

[sparkie]

1. Make em marry a WM.
2. Strap em in a chair and make em watch Desperate Housewives.
3. Take them shopping at the mall
4. Make them read ALL of Jetdawgs posts.
5. Make them read ALL the Poolee's questions.
6. Give them my honeydo list.
7. Make them sit in the Senate for a day.
8. Make them watch OJ news releases.

[yellowwing]

4. Make them read ALL of Jetdawgs posts.

Geez that would take forever!

[RVHall]

That's definitely too cruel and unusual, Sparkie. My wife watches that and that may be the real reason I'm so screwed up.

[FistFu68]

YOU EVER READ AL-QUEDAS,CONSTITUTION;OR THEIR GENEVA CONVENTION??? AL'MOST AS HUMANE AS THE VIET-CONG'S!!! (IM NOT FONDA JANE)

[Dave Coup]

Thier Geneve Convention encourages beheading and torture. RVHall have you seen any of the films these motherfrakers release? Anything that we do to them is like kisses from a baby in comparison. When I was in Nam we just let the ARVN or PF interrogate. It was a cultural thing.

[HardJedi]

the Geneva convention, and our constitution are both a bit dated, as far as I am concerned and need to be updated. besides there have been many international treaties made over the years, about war conduct, and treatments of prisoners, seeking to limit the brutality of combat and such. But lets face it, if it is a time of war, yo are there to enforce your country's will through force, and or shows of force, an that means killing. Now, is it more humane to shoot someone, bomb someone, whatever, or to pull a few toenails in the hopes you can capture lots of people to preven more people from being killed or maimed?

torture meerley used to get someone to admit to believing in an ideology that is wrong, or to get them to sign a confession is wrong. but used to save lives? What the hell? I suppose we could just set em free with a weapon and shoot em instead.

[David Jameson]

This is a call that has to be made by the people on the ground and as the
situation dictates.Don't get me wrong on this.I'm not trying to be a bad ass.
It seems to me the people who make the big drama about about rough treatment of p.o.w's seem to be more concerned with how we look,then the way the enemy acts on the battle field.It seems to be a secret in some circles that this has happened in every war and depends on how our guys precive they are treated by the enemy. Examples ,the japs ,the ss.North Koreans.Get the picture.I'm really kind of surprisied that we have taken so many so called non-combatants alive with our people knowing what would be there fate if they put up thier hands.S-2 must want them.
QUESTION--People who like to bring up the Geneva convention ,I thought
that was men and women IN UNIFORM and /or recognized combatants.
People not in unifom are intitled to any protection under the GN.
Spies ,sabators,and people m
not of a recognized organization can and have bene taken out and shot on the spot in all other wars.

[ese4mc]

anytime,anyplace,anywhere,anyday,anyone that tried it on my people--they shall suffer the consequences of their foolish deeds

[sparkie]

The Geneva Convention Agreements were written for those who practice a conventional war,,,,does not apply to those who will not wear a uniform, not carry a flag, will not claim a country.. Those types are criminals and thugs, Internationally, nothing protects them.Nothing but our morals,,,,or our needs.

[yellowwing]

The Taliban ruled Afghanistan for years and we never recognized them. Years later we call then non combatants and hold them indefinitely? Thats why our NATO allies are not jumping aboard.

[LeonardLawrence]

Would anyone here on the forum use torture if it would save American lives?

I think you are assuming they want to be "tortured". I thought it was good to die for thier cause??? Wouldn't torture be like Disneyland then?

Seriously....

I have seen what they do to their own children (bombs in crowds) and citizenry, not to mention how others are treated like animals (beheadings) at the slaughter.

If I could...and it would save a life...then yes. Would I enjoy it or be a hollywood movie about it....no.

[RVHall]

Ok, I'm in a very small minority. As a Marine, I'm used to that. This is my last shot and I'm out of here.

First, who ever knows if the proposed torture will save lives.
Second, as YellowWing said, it is a valid point that 99% of the entire world hates us more and more due to our bad behavior. Do we really think that we will always be #1 and we can kick the entire world's ass? Our kids no longer excel in great numbers in math and science - they are just not disciplined enough. They prefer the touchy feely majors. We have to look for foreign students to help fill the need. I know, I'm a scientist.
Third, now that our King has made the writ of habeus corpus obsolete for the first time since the Magna Carta, all that he has to do is call you a terrorist, with no judicial or other review, and YOU can be tortured.

And finally, on the Constitution, it was not designed to protect the strong. It was designed to protect the weakest among us from the majority, until due process determines that we ought to be punished and how. I still suspect that many of these comments have come from Marines who haven't seen combat and who haven't had full control over a prisoner. In Vietnam, we took many VC prisoners who were "out of uniform". I know that there were some abuses, and when caught the UCMJ took care of the Marines who had flipped over the edge. Young Marines out there, please don't ruin your career over this issue.

We can win lots of battles and lose the war. Gen. Giap admitted that they never defeated us, but he said that wasn't important. They didn't win militarily, they won strategically. Unless we win the hearts and minds of not only the Iraqis but also of the free world, once we are no longer the most powerful, and based on our declining technical ability we are losing ground, we are goners.

It's been an interesting discussion at times, and I wish you all the best.

Semper Fi