Legislation Allows Veterans to Salute the Flag

[sdk87to91]

What do you think? Sloppy or reasonable?


>Legislation Allows Veterans to Salute the Flag
>
>WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) today praised
>the passage by unanimous consent of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law
>to allow veterans and servicemen not in uniform to salute the flag.
>
>Current law (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1) states that veterans and
>servicemen
>not
>in uniform should place their hand over their heart without clarifying
>whether they can or should salute the flag.
>
>"The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in
>one's military service," Senator Inhofe said. "Veterans and service
>members
>continue representing the military services even when not in uniform.
>
>"Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether
>veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag.
>My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and
>servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not.
>
>"I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly
>at baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an
>appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the
>United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to
>other citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the
>military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an
>inspiration to others."
>

[jerryk]

what i would like to know is,i was taught all americans are to salute the flag with their right hand over the left side ,do this mean a vet can now give a hand salute to the fore head as in the service either way i have broke the law my salute been a hand salute to the forehead and will till the day i die or now can we salute with only over our heart

[Kegler300]

No thanks. I'll place my hand over my heart.

[outlaw3179]

Marines salute only in uniform.

[yanacek]

I would like to make everyone aware of a few things regarding this Bill concerning saluting the flag in civilian clothing.

First of all, the referenced legislation is not yet Law. The Bill has passed the Senate but has not been voted on by the House and as such, has not been signed by the President. Here is a link to get the Bill's current status:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1877

Although this Bill appears to be a sincere gesture on the part of the Senator, I am strongly opposed to it. I have addressed this same issue in a number of Marine Corps forums and initially received some rather nasty responses. However, my last post apparently got many folks thinking, and I would like to share my PERSONAL thoughts with everyone concerning this issue. You may not agree with my thoughts, but please consider them.

When not wearing my Marine Corps uniform or my uniform of the Marine Corps League, I will continue to remove my hat and from the position of attention, and place my hand over my heart. Although some may feel that rendering honors in this manner somehow degrades anyone who has earned the title Marine, I maintain that doing this is being a Marine more than rendering a hand salute as proposed by the Senator. Here is my rationale:

1. Marines as taught in boot camp/OCS that when they are not in uniform and/or not covered a hand salute is not rendered to officers or to the Colors. Of course, the Army and Air Force routinely salute when not covered, but I am not a soldier or airman. I am not influenced by popular opinions in this matter. I am comfortable with the Naval tradition as I was taught and see no need to change that time-honored tradition. As you probably already have seen, placing the hand over the heart is not even what most civilians do anyway--most don't even know enough to stand.

2. The military salute originated in the ancient world. An ancient warrior would raise his open hand out of respect to his superiors as an assurance of obedience and a physical way to demonstrate he would not strike out against lawful authority with a weapon. That is why Naval tradition only permits us to salute when "under arms" or covered.

3. The current language of the law in no way prohibits anyone from rendering a hand salute when not in uniform (it says "those not in uniform SHOULD place their hand over their heart and those in uniform SHOULD render a hand salute"). In fact, the law as written would not prohibit a civilian from rendering a hand salute. I just do not find this legislation to be worthy of the time of our Congressmen and Senators. It seems to me to be a piece of legislation designed to placate our veterans rather than addressing REAL veterans issues.

4. The Senator also claims that he "...looks forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at baseball games, parades, and formal events." I trust that the Senator was somehow misquoted. During the playing of our National Anthem (or during the Pledge of Allegiance or when Colors pass in review), one's focus should always be on the National Color, not on others in the crowd. To those veterans who support this Bill as a means of being recognized in this manner, I maintain that this is a totally self-serving act which is contrary to a basic principle of being a Marine. Rendering appropriate honors are for the purpose of showing respect to the National Color, not to draw attention to oneself.

Fellow Marines, salute out of uniform or uncovered if you must. I will not berate anyone who does. As for me, I will continue to render honors in the time-honored Naval traditions as prescribed by the Marine Corps. But in my book, there are only two ways to do things: The Marine way and the wrong way.

Semper Fi,
yanacek

[jerryk]

well dont ya,ll think ya,ll have as vet of the u.s.marine corps has earned the right to salute the flag with a hand salute outher then anyone else
or same as a civalan that has never served

[gwladgarwr]

I'm in total agreement with the MSgt: not in uniform, no hand salute.

The Flag Code does not have any provision for punitive action against those who violate the flag code, and 'transgressors' against the Flag Code cannot be punished for violations. The Flag Code is not enforceable (at least not in the civilian world.)

If I want to salute the flag while wearing a beanie, that's my deal. I don't need another self-serving law proposed by a self-serving and attention-getting senator to legislate my respect for my flag, much less enacting more laws dictating my behavior.

Of course, my proper Marine Corps bearing dictates that I follow the old Naval tradition of not saluting the colors when not under arms.

Just keep this in mind when you do render the proper respect and when folks sneer at you for doing so:

"When you see the Stars and Stripes displayed, son, stand up and take off your hat. Somebody may titter. It is in the blood of some to ridicule all expression of noble sentiment. You may blaspheme in the street and stagger drunken in public places, and the bystanders will not pay much attention to you; but if you should get down on your knees and pray to Almighty God, or if you should stand bareheaded while a company of old soldiers marches by with flags to the breeze, some people will think you are showing off.

But don't you mind! When Old Glory comes along, salute, and let them think what they please! When you hear the band play "The Star-Spangled Banner" while you are in a restaurant or hotel dining room, get up even if you rise alone; stand there and don't be ashamed of it, either!

For of all the signs and symbols since the world began there is none other so full of meaning as the flag of this country. That piece of red, white and blue means five thousand years of struggle upward. It is the full-grown flower of ages of fighting for liberty. It is the century plant of human hope in bloom.

Your flag stands for humanity, for an equal opportunity to all the sons of men. Of course we haven't arrived yet at that goal; there are many injustices yet among us, many senseless and cruel customs of the past still clinging to us, but the only hope of righting the wrongs of men lies in the feeling produced in our bosoms by the sight of that flag.

Other flags mean a glorious past, this flag a glorious future. It is not so much the flag of our fathers as it is the flag of our children, and of all children's children yet unborn. It is the flag of tomorrow. It is the signal of the "Good Time Coming." It is not the flag of your king—it is the flag of yourself and of all your neighbors.

Don't be ashamed when your throat chokes and the tears come, as you see it flying from the masts of our ships on all the seas or floating from every Flagstaff of the Republic. You will never have a worthier emotion. Reverence it as you would reverence the signature of the Deity.

Listen, son! The band is playing the national anthem—"The Star-Spangled Banner!" They have let loose Old Glory yonder. Stand up—and others will stand with you.

This tribute to the flag is offered to the country in appeal to all men and women of all races, colors and tongues, that they may come to understand that our flag is the symbol of liberty and learn to love it."

ALVIN M. OWSLEY,
Past National Commander, The American Legion

For the record, I adamantly oppose a Flag Desecration amendment. I don't need my 1st Amendment slowly chipped away to get me to respect MY flag.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Sgt gw

[semperfi170]

I totally agree with the viewpoints expressed by gwladgarwr and yanacek!

I was taught the proper way to render honors to our flag from the time I was in grade school in the 1950s, then in the Boy Scouts, then in our beloved Corps. The idea of another law just for this is ridiculous! I will continue to renders honors the way I was taught. I haven't yet seen anybody arrested for using the hand salute to render honors. If an individual who feels inclined to use the hand salute, let them. As for flag desecration I strongly resent those who do it, but it is their right if they want to portray their ignorance!! Personally, if somebody physically stops them, too bad for the individual(s) performing the desecration.

The next illogical step would be to arrest those who don't render honors at a parade orturn their back on the flag as it comes by; or don't stand during the playing of the National Anthem.

[semperfiman]

i am all for vets saluting our colors. it lets others know that we served our great nation with pride

[sparkie]

You salute In uniform,,, You give honor as a civilian,,,, Nuf said. Why change? Sept to appease some new age liberal? Yea ,gotta make all things new,,, cause Gotta serve the all, somehow. Some can't adapt, cause I gotta fall on my knees to them. Get over, I don't have to bend cause your imaginary heart bleeds.

[Robert Browell]

I have rendered honors both ways,Marines don't salute indoors either,unless they're under arms,which can be an empty web belt.Having used both methods,I won't be a hypocrite.As long as you are silent,and respectful(yup that means stand at attention),you won't get any grief from me!

[greensideout]

Is something broken? Does it need to be fixed? I didn't think so. Senator Inhofe seems to think that it is more important to recognize the Vet then to honor the flag in the traditional time proven way. I disagree. As for me, out of uniform I will put my hand over my heart. God bless America!

[sdk87to91]

I thought Marines were to stand at the Position of Attention , which means no hand over the heart, and which would mean remaining covered even in civies. Am I remembering wrongly?

[yanacek]

Here is what the law says, verbatim:

SEC. 5. During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present except those in uniform should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should render the military salute. When not in uniform, men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Aliens should stand at attention. The salute to the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.

SEC. 6. During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.

SEC. 7. The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag and render the military salute.

To answer your question, when in civvies, you should stand at attention and remove your hat and place your hand over your heart as indicated above.

Additional details regarding Title 4, USC is provided at: http://www.obxmarines.com/information/flag_code.html

[sparkie]

Good post, Sir,,, And thank you.