m4a1

[JCam0331]

I agree NK and Russia are probably extreme examples but my point is anything can happen. I don't care how many tactical nukes they or we have, nothing is off the table these days. It might not be very likely but it's not impossible. The weapons and tactics that we use today might not have the same effectiveness somewhere else.

And my point with the SEAL's is based on that fact that they don't work as good without all their gizmo's and gadgets. Perhaps if the Corps had their unlimited budget then we would train that way also? But I know that starting very early on is their training that they use all the high speed gadgets you can name. And sometimes that stuff breaks. And I say this from first hand experience. Give a SEAL a lensatic compass and see what kind of look you get. And I respect the SEALs but I'm not as high on them as you are, I saw a so called experienced SEAL team get wiped out by a MCSF team in a force on force operation, on multiple occasions at MCSF training company. In fact it was the same day Dick Marchenko got kicked off our range for acting like he ran the place. Maybe I'm biased but I'll take a Marine Force Recon team over them any day but that subject could be discussed on this site for years.

And finally I understand your main point and I agree with it, but I also think that we need to remember that what happens in IRAQ isn't the only way it happens. If someday in the future we run into a war or conflict where there's some distance between us and the enemy then I hope we still have those fine M-16A2's out there. Not all wars and conflicts are fought from 100 yds in. We might find ourselves in a far different place someday where we need to reach out and touch someone from the squad level.

Good discussion Marine!

It won't happen. There is a reason why no nuclear weapon has been used on another country since the bombs on Hrisohima and Nagasaki.

I undertstand you saying that what happens in Iraq isn't the only way it happens, but the trend in the 21st century is low intensiry warfare. No established nation-state is foolish enough to go toe-to-toe against the United States in a conventional war.

As for SEALs I can't speak by first hand experience like you, having worked with them or witnessed their live training exercises, but after reading the book "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Luttrell, I've grown to respect the SEALs even more than before.

And I'm pretty sure a SEAL knows how to use a lensatic compass, since basic land navigation is taught to the pog-est Marines at MCT and new Lieutenants at TBS. I don't see how extensive land nav skills would not be a part of BUD/S or at least SQT (SEAL Qualification Training), as, like you said, high tech gadgets have a chance of breaking down, and I can't envision a US SEAL being lost in the wilderness because his GPS broke and he wasn't taught how to shoot an azimuth.

Highly doubtful.

[rvillac2]

And I'm pretty sure a SEAL knows how to use a lensatic compass, since basic land navigation is taught to the pog-est Marines at MCT and new Lieutenants at TBS. I don't see how extensive land nav skills would not be a part of BUD/S or at least SQT (SEAL Qualification Training), as, like you said, high tech gadgets have a chance of breaking down, and I can't envision a US SEAL being lost in the wilderness because his GPS broke and he wasn't taught how to shoot an azimuth.

Highly doubtful.

LOL. JCam, you're a good kid and clearly you've read a bit and are fairly intelligent. However, clearly you haven't been around the fleet. Wait a few years and we'll see if you have the same esteem for our colleagues.

Keep up the spirit, though.

[thewookie]

Let me say this and then I'll get off this post and subject. I don't want to come across as some Jarhead that's mad and bitter, and talks trash about the SEALs or any other unit or organization. My point is based on first hand experience as I've mentioned, and I'll briefly explain what that was. When I was stationed at Dam Neck rifle range the SEAL compound was right next door and we shared the range that we used for DM School, PMI School, and weekly rifle and pistol quals of the Marines from the Atlantic coast area. When we were down from teaching a class or a range detail we used to get out and hammer away at the birm with the DMR. The SEALs next door shared the rifle range with us and so we developed friendly relationships with some of the guys. But most of them were the biggest arrogant, prima donna's I have ever witnessed. Some of them would talk to us occasionally but overall they would look at us like we were trash, this is a range detachment with mostly Sergeants and above, not a bunch of boots. Some of them wouldn't even recognize us when we were right beside them, a total lack of simple courtesy. But any way, they shot next to us and when we were done shooting we'd clear the range and move down range to see our targets. But they didn't like us to see their targets, I'll just put it that way. They had more gear and weapon problems then anything I've ever seen from any other group of "operators." Maybe all these guys were new because they never impressed any of us, speaking about their shooting. And I've seen them perform with their scoped toys, and let me tell you they have many toys, un-freikin-believable. But they never seemed to use much iron sights, or it was very rare that they did.

When I moved down the road to Chesapeake, where MCSF basic school and also CQB school is located. I dealt with them again, but this time it was in a CQB environment. And let me tell you they shoot a lot of rounds and are fairly good at marksmanship, but their tactics inside an enclosure are terrible. Maybe not terrible by most people's standards, and apparently not theirs, but terrible to me and every one of my fellow CQB instructors that I worked with. I mentioned earlier we did some force on force with them, and granted it was our house so we had a better understanding of the layout. But this one day they had trained in it all day, like a bunch of pom-pus arses. And later when it came time for them to make a live entry (w/sim), they came in from the roof after fast roping down off a helo. And we lit their arses up all over the house, run after run. They were all mad and embarrassed at the end. The funny thing was they even asked if they could take the video tape that we run on all our live runs, so we wouldn't have it and then use it to embarrass them by showing it to our students. We told them to pound sand, and promised not to show it. We showed it to our students the very next day and we laughed our arses off.

But overall I'd have to say that I met many a fine SEAL operator in my four years down in Virginia. A lot of former Recon guys make their way there because they get better missions, at least back then. But overall I think they're some of the most dedicated, loyal, hard working, and physically fit organizations around. They're amongst a group that's truly my hero's and I really believe that overall, they're nasty. But I say again, I'll take a platoon from Force over the SEALs any day, actually, I'd rather have air force PJ's over the SEALs but it really depends on the mission. The PJ's are bad ass professionals, and they're very much like Recon in the sense that they're humble.

And that takes me to my final point, JCam you used the word elite to describe the SEAL's, an how the Marines wouldn't be bad off to aspire to this. Marines are not elite, at least not any of the Marines I trained or served with. If I ever heard those words coming out of one of my students mouth I'd wear him out with his gear, and gas mask on. The SEAL's call themselves elite, let them. Marines are just Marines, on any level. We don't need to be called elite, our actions for the past 232 years say enough.

[JCam0331]

Let me say this and then I'll get off this post and subject. I don't want to come across as some Jarhead that's mad and bitter, and talks trash about the SEALs or any other unit or organization. My point is based on first hand experience as I've mentioned, and I'll briefly explain what that was. When I was stationed at Dam Neck rifle range the SEAL compound was right next door and we shared the range that we used for DM School, PMI School, and weekly rifle and pistol quals of the Marines from the Atlantic coast area. When we were down from teaching a class or a range detail we used to get out and hammer away at the birm with the DMR. The SEALs next door shared the rifle range with us and so we developed friendly relationships with some of the guys. But most of them were the biggest arrogant, prima donna's I have ever witnessed. Some of them would talk to us occasionally but overall they would look at us like we were trash, this is a range detachment with mostly Sergeants and above, not a bunch of boots. Some of them wouldn't even recognize us when we were right beside them, a total lack of simple courtesy. But any way, they shot next to us and when we were done shooting we'd clear the range and move down range to see our targets. But they didn't like us to see their targets, I'll just put it that way. They had more gear and weapon problems then anything I've ever seen from any other group of "operators." Maybe all these guys were new because they never impressed any of us, speaking about their shooting. And I've seen them perform with their scoped toys, and let me tell you they have many toys, un-freikin-believable. But they never seemed to use much iron sights, or it was very rare that they did.

When I moved down the road to Chesapeake, where MCSF basic school and also CQB school is located. I dealt with them again, but this time it was in a CQB environment. And let me tell you they shoot a lot of rounds and are fairly good at marksmanship, but their tactics inside an enclosure are terrible. Maybe not terrible by most people's standards, and apparently not theirs, but terrible to me and every one of my fellow CQB instructors that I worked with. I mentioned earlier we did some force on force with them, and granted it was our house so we had a better understanding of the layout. But this one day they had trained in it all day, like a bunch of pom-pus arses. And later when it came time for them to make a live entry (w/sim), they came in from the roof after fast roping down off a helo. And we lit their arses up all over the house, run after run. They were all mad and embarrassed at the end. The funny thing was they even asked if they could take the video tape that we run on all our live runs, so we wouldn't have it and then use it to embarrass them by showing it to our students. We told them to pound sand, and promised not to show it. We showed it to our students the very next day and we laughed our arses off.

But overall I'd have to say that I met many a fine SEAL operator in my four years down in Virginia. A lot of former Recon guys make their way there because they get better missions, at least back then. But overall I think they're some of the most dedicated, loyal, hard working, and physically fit organizations around. They're amongst a group that's truly my hero's and I really believe that overall, they're nasty. But I say again, I'll take a platoon from Force over the SEALs any day, actually, I'd rather have air force PJ's over the SEALs but it really depends on the mission. The PJ's are bad ass professionals, and they're very much like Recon in the sense that they're humble.

And that takes me to my final point, JCam you used the word elite to describe the SEAL's, an how the Marines wouldn't be bad off to aspire to this. Marines are not elite, at least not any of the Marines I trained or served with. If I ever heard those words coming out of one of my students mouth I'd wear him out with his gear, and gas mask on. The SEAL's call themselves elite, let them. Marines are just Marines, on any level. We don't need to be called elite, our actions for the past 232 years say enough.

That was an excellent post and theres nothing there that I will argue with !!

[slovenianmarine]

but you never know what can happen in future.