Did U.S. Elections Signal End to Democracy in Iraq?

[Ladderwell]

Marine Dad,

Well ladderwell you have the House and Senate now so it will be new leadership.
Not until we also elect a Democratic president can we begin the beginning of unscrewing all the damage that has been done over the past 6 years. For the Dems, it's like coming upon the scene of a terrible accident.

Glad to see your bile and DNC crap is still going strong.
Have never referred to the DNC or it's platforms. My position is one of common but informed sense.

Lets see how the cut and run crowd will react when we come home and peace does not come to Iraq and the radical muslims get control and really start the training over there in a safe haven.

I do not know how the new leaders will begin the turnaround, and pull "our fat from the fire." I do not believe it will be cut&run, but a well-reasoned extraction of our forces while attempting to mitigate any pullout related damage.


Till then I will be reloading all my ammo and stocking up to keep my family safe which I know upsets the leftists because they want to take away my right to have guns and the will to protect what I have.

I'm an NRA member. Don't jive me.

I still pray for you and your miss guided utopia that you want so much.

Thank you for your prayers, and maybe in many respects I am wrong, but I fully believe that it is the righteous path, based on well-read and informed opinions.

Gotta git.

Good night.

Keep your powder dry.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
Sf

[Ladderwell]

GSO,
Bush's old man saw the folly in kicking Sadaam off the throne. At the time I heard the reason was that there was "no exit strategy." He studied history, and listened to sound advice. Bush, Jr. did and does not have the intellectual horsepower to not heed bad advice. He simply cannot be trusted to do the right thing. He's just not bright enough.
*
Ladderwell
SF

[greensideout]

GSO,
Bush's old man saw the folly in kicking Sadaam off the throne. At the time I heard the reason was that there was "no exit strategy." He studied history, and listened to sound advice. Bush, Jr. did and does not have the intellectual horsepower to not heed bad advice. He simply cannot be trusted to do the right thing. He's just not bright enough.
*
Ladderwell
SF

Considering the leadership we have today, either party, who do you suggest is the one that can be "trusted to do the right thing"?

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I don't see anyone on the demo leadership side advocating anything that will really help us, truth be told.

[OLE SARG]

ladderwell thinks **** is bad now, wait until his girls take over after the 1st of the year. **** hitting the fan will reign over the U. S. and we'll be able to listen to the likes of bones pelosi, dumbass howard dean, ms kerry, fatass kennedy, dirty harry, etc.
I am curious as to how the incoming administration (and I use that word loosely) is going to "unscrew" everything. Sit back and watch folks, this is going to be good and entertaining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[6yrforMar]

All this Political BS the Republicans did this the Dem.did that,our enemies could care less what party is in power.We have the Mussolini of the 21st century in S.America and The Little Hitler in Iran both kissing up to each other,Commy Russia helping Iran with their Nuke Program.Commy China Buying up US dollars.But guess what Israel is not going to wait for the Little Hitler to Annilate them.Except for Israel we are in 1938 all over again.I think we will see history repeat itself in our lifetime.

[SuNmAN]

Considering the leadership we have today, either party, who do you suggest is the one that can be "trusted to do the right thing"?

I think Bush is trying but in all honestly I think he lacks competence.

I would take either Senator McCain or Senator Obama for 2008...one of the two would satisfy me.

[SuNmAN]

The topic says "did US elections signal end of democracy in Iraq?"

I'm sorry, but there IS NO DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ.

Yes, there is a representative government elected by the people. However, "democracy" implies certain freedoms, including the freedom from fear...the freedom not to be blown up at any given moment

If I was an Iraqi citizen, if I had an option to time travel back to Saddam Hussein era in 2002.

I'D TAKE THAT ANYDAY

[Sgt Leprechaun]

SuN, that is one of the most ridiculous postings you've ever done. Meaning, your last line.

That equates right up there with "Well, Mussolini was an evil fascist, but, hey, the trains ran on time!"

And, in the civics lesson of the day, there are exactly 'zero' democracies in the world at present, including Iraq. ZERO.

America is a republic.

A true 'democracy' means the majority of the people vote, on everything, and that's the way the country goes. If that were the case with America right now, we wouldn't have gay marriage, affirmative action, school busing, or illegals getting health care on the taxpayers dime. ALL of these things were voted for (and many others) in ballot initiatives at the state level, but were later overturned by activist federal judges. In a true democracy, that wouldn't have happened. Putting another look to that, we probably wouldn't be in Iraq, either, based on polling data.

Democracy has nothing to do with "The freedom from fear", you are confusing "The five principles" first laid down by the FDR administration in WWII, with "Democracy". If "the freedom from fear" is one of the tenants you are espousing, as the test of a "democracy", then the areas of South Central LA, Cabrini Green housing projects in Chicago, and large swaths of Washington DC, from the Anacostia river over to the beltway in Prince Georges County, MD, are not in a "Democracy", either. Of course, we could reverse the clock to, say, circa 1961, prior to integration, during Jim Crow, and those folks would be living under a "Democracy" then, wouldn't they?

Think about that for a second before you so willing condem around 25 million people back to a dictatorship.

[SuNmAN]

SuN, that is one of the most ridiculous postings you've ever done. Meaning, your last line.

That equates right up there with "Well, Mussolini was an evil fascist, but, hey, the trains ran on time!"

And, in the civics lesson of the day, there are exactly 'zero' democracies in the world at present, including Iraq. ZERO.

America is a republic.

A true 'democracy' means the majority of the people vote, on everything, and that's the way the country goes. If that were the case with America right now, we wouldn't have gay marriage, affirmative action, school busing, or illegals getting health care on the taxpayers dime. ALL of these things were voted for (and many others) in ballot initiatives at the state level, but were later overturned by activist federal judges. In a true democracy, that wouldn't have happened. Putting another look to that, we probably wouldn't be in Iraq, either, based on polling data.

Democracy has nothing to do with "The freedom from fear", you are confusing "The five principles" first laid down by the FDR administration in WWII, with "Democracy". If "the freedom from fear" is one of the tenants you are espousing, as the test of a "democracy", then the areas of South Central LA, Cabrini Green housing projects in Chicago, and large swaths of Washington DC, from the Anacostia river over to the beltway in Prince Georges County, MD, are not in a "Democracy", either. Of course, we could reverse the clock to, say, circa 1961, prior to integration, during Jim Crow, and those folks would be living under a "Democracy" then, wouldn't they?

Think about that for a second before you so willing condem around 25 million people back to a dictatorship.

Sergeant Leprechaun, you have great merit in your arguments that you posted above.

The only points I would disagree with you is - "there are no democracies on the face of this earth" - The United States is a democracy. A republic is a form of democratic government. If you're talking about pure democracy, then none has ever existed in history. Just like no government of pure communism has ever existed.

2ndly - the only reason for my last line is because Iraqi civilians are getting killed by the terrorists and US collateral damage at a blistering rate.

Since 2003, the average Iraqi may have gained the right to vote and freedom of speech, but they lost a large degree of personal security. Who knows when some bozo is going to strap a bomb and blow up my house killing my whole family? Saddam was a villain, and I'm glad to see him go...but under Saddam's Iraq...there was stability. There was no Al Qaeda.

[jinelson]

SuNmAN when did your university leftest professor conditioners change America from a Republic to a Democracy? How much longer before they get the ACLU or Supreme Court to reflect the pledge of allegance which they have all but $hit canned to read "and to the democracy for which it stands"? Read the article below its not from a conservative site but a leftest media site.

Jim

'Democracy:' It's a threat to our republic!

By David P. Shreiner
Sunday, June 29, 2003

Most people believe the United States is a country created with a democratic form of government. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Founding Fathers were almost as fearful of democracy as they were the monarchies of Europe.
James Madison, the father of the Constitution, said, "Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention, have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property, and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death." No doubt he was thinking of ancient Athens.

Edmund Randolph of Virginia understood the dangers of democracy when he said the object of the Constitutional Convention "was to produce a cure for the evils under which the United States labored; that in tracing these evils to their origins, every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy."

Our government was founded as a decentralized representative republic whose power was limited to the protection of liberty and private property. The words "democracy" and "democratic" appear nowhere in the Constitution. A republic differs from a democracy like the rule of law differs from the rule of the masses.

Benjamin Franklin had it right when he said after the Constitutional Convention in 1787 that the delegates to the convention gave the people "a republic, if you can keep it." Unfortunately, we haven't kept it. We have reverted to a kind of democracy feared by the Founders, a centralized power controlled by majority opinion that can be arbitrary, impulsive and frivolous.

SLIPPERY STEPS

In a democracy it is a small, slippery step that separates rule by an educated, wise citizenry from rule by the greedy mob. This has always been the danger of democracy.

The worst president in the history of the United States showed us the worst aspects of democracy -- government by daily and weekly polling results. Constant polling could only be accomplished in our age of high technology when a vote is a mere byte per microsecond.

The early 20th century showed the effects of constitutional amendments designed to make the government more democratic -- the 17th Amendment in the disastrous year of 1913. The Constitution originally provided for election of senators by the state legislatures, but the 17th Amendment changed that to election by the people, another step toward democracy. The Founding Fathers wanted the Senate composed of wise and able legislators appointed by state legislatures. Senators should not be subject to the vagaries of the majority, and therefore they could temper the bills from the roistering and elected House of Representatives.

The 16th Amendment creating the income tax also came into being in 1913. This was indeed a black year for it saw the beginning of central banking, the Federal Reserve System, which gave us the Great Depression of the 1930s. Without the 16th Amendment, we never would have achieved the powerful central government and welfare state we have today.

Socialism would have remained nothing more than the sick idea of malcontents such as Marx and Lenin. Unless this amendment is repealed (as probable as Hillary Clinton deciding not to run for president), we have no chance to restore the republic.

The 18th Amendment, ratified in 1919, created Prohibition, another disastrous mistake from which the country never recovered. This was the result of an urge to accommodate majority opinion without considering the rights of the individual. It brought us organized crime, which is still with us today. Although in 1933 the 21st Amendment repealed the 18th, it could not abolish organized crime.

Without bothering to make another fatal amendment, Congress repeated the mistake of Prohibition by creating a large class of illegal drugs. This restored to organized crime the lucrative way of life to which they had become accustomed during Prohibition. But now instead of bootlegging liquor, they smuggle illegal drugs. Once again this was a misguided attempt at accommodating majority opinion instead of considering individual rights. Americans did not have a drug problem or a war on drugs until these drugs were made illegal. And so we persist with another failed program that threatens liberty and costs billions of tax dollars that could best be used by those people earning the money.

TROUBLED PATH

How did we get this far -- from a republic to a democracy? It was a long process that began with the Civil War, which proved that states had no right to secede, that they did not have the powers guaranteed to them in the Bill of Rights. The 10th Amendment, ratified 70 years before the Civil War, states, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Thus, the Civil War effectively canceled the 10th Amendment -- without a Constitutional Convention.

The perpetual confusion of Americans about their own government is aggravated by the old democratic habit of election of representatives of our former republic. It is one thing to elect leaders by majority vote, but quite another thing for majorities to decide what rights they have, to redistribute wealth and to restrict the liberties of minorities.

The rule of law and the Constitution have become irrelevant. We now live by poll results that are highly influenced by the socialist propaganda of the news media.

Do we have a right to a job? Yeah, you bet!

Do we have a right to go to college? Of course; isn't that in the Constitution?

Do we have a right to a parking place downtown? Yeah, why not!

Most Americans' abysmal knowledge of the Constitution allows those who desire world government to erode individual liberties, bit by bit, under the pretense of compassion, national security and equal rights for all.

Without a real Constitution there is no obstacle to giving up national sovereignty and adopting the new socialist world government.

Without a real Constitution we have no individual liberties.

Without a real Constitution the meaning of America is whatever the majority of the moment wants it to be.

And we are now without a real Constitution in the sense that it is no more than an historical document of no current value except when it suits someone's political agenda.

Liberals refer to it affectionately as a "living document," meaning that it changes as often as they want it to and it means whatever they want it to mean.

We live in a time when there are virtually no constitutional restraints on the federal government. The Constitution regularly is subverted by Congress, executive orders or judicial decrees.

IMMINENT COLLAPSE

Democracy is promoted as fairness and civil rights in an effort to gain some benefit for some special interest group. The job of all politicians is to ignore the rule of law as defined in the Constitution and to concern themselves solely with control of majority opinion.

The demands of the majority are always greater than taxation can provide. We are now witnessing the rise of socialism while the signs of its imminent collapse are everywhere.

The Social Security system won't last many more years.

Medicare is already so stressed that more adjustments must be made to the law.

The unrecorded numbers of the unemployed grow and demand more, while the official unemployment figures are fudged by deleting all those who have been out of work more than a few months.

Inflation of the money supply to satisfy this demand only devalues the currency and impoverishes those with savings accounts and nest eggs.

The end is in sight. The only question is when will the collapse of democratic socialism finally be obvious to everyone. Pure democracy ends in violence and chaos. Let us hope someone somewhere has a good alternative ready to go when our social structures implode.

David P. Shreiner, a retired physician, lives in Franklin Park.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

SuN:

"Since 2003, the average Iraqi may have gained the right to vote and freedom of speech, but they lost a large degree of personal security. Who knows when some bozo is going to strap a bomb and blow up my house killing my whole family? Saddam was a villain, and I'm glad to see him go...but under Saddam's Iraq...there was stability. There was no Al Qaeda."

Let's change this up a bit:

"Since 1918, the average German may have gained the right to vote and freedom of speech, but they lost a large degree of personal security. Who knows when the economy will stop sinking? It takes a wheelbarrow full of almost worthless money just to buy a loaf of bread. The Kaiser was a villain, and I'm glad to see him go...but under the Kaiser's Germany...there was stability. There was no Red Front, no inflation, the people were fed and healthy...[this Hitler guy has it right, the German people should be proud of their accomplishments, they never lost on the battlefield, but were instead stabbed in the back, and run roughshod over at Versailles..look at what Mussolini has done for the Italians, my god, the trains even run on time!!!]

Riddle me this, Batman....would you rather live in a Republic that promises "free will", with some measure of risk, or have every single thought, action, motion, and deed, including what you wear to work, where you work, what type of work you do, car you drive, food you eat, paper and TV you read and watch, sports team you support, and woman/man you marry, choosen for you, based on 'the good of the people', with total safety and security?

I'll take that risk for "Free will", which allows me to make dumb mistakes, and succeed or fail.

The 'nanny state' mentality of socialism/dictatorship has been proven, time and again, NOT to work. When people have the freedom to choose, they invariably choose a republic/democracy.

[SuNmAN]

SuNmAN when did your university leftest professor conditioners change America from a Republic to a Democracy? How much longer before they get the ACLU or Supreme Court to reflect the pledge of allegance which they have all but $hit canned to read "and to the democracy for which it stands"? Read the article below its not from a conservative site but a leftest media site.

Jim

LOL, you guys are SO biased in unbelievable

I understand that colleges have a reputation of being liberal, but are all professors liberal hippies?

I'll tell you that is not the case right now

The University of Illinois is highly pro military. We have several scholarship and grant programs for veterans, thanks to Congressman Rahm Immanuel (DEMOCRAT-ILLINOIS), we had events going on during Veterans Day, we have a fledging ROTC program and midshipmen and cadets are required to wear their uniforms on Thursdays (Navy/Marine in their Khakis, Air Force in the blues, Army in cammies)

I have not heart a single "baby killer" comment, and anyone who has heard about my service (or lack thereof lol) in the Marines has come and shook my hand telling me how much respect they have for me.

The political science professors are some of the most OBJECTIVE AND MODERATE people I have ever learned under, but wait, since they're moderate, they're probably considered leftist because they don't scream "hail Bush !"

Believe it or not, a Republic is a DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT

Dictionary.com

re·pub·lic /rɪˈpʌblɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-puhb-lik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.


de·moc·ra·cy /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-mok-ruh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -cies. 1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.


This is from dictionary.com

Notice the similarity between the definition of Republic and Democracy?? They're essentially the same !!!!!

So lets not hear any crap about "America is not a democracy, it is a Republic", because a republic is a form of democratic government !!!!

[SuNmAN]

SuN:

"Since 2003, the average Iraqi may have gained the right to vote and freedom of speech, but they lost a large degree of personal security. Who knows when some bozo is going to strap a bomb and blow up my house killing my whole family? Saddam was a villain, and I'm glad to see him go...but under Saddam's Iraq...there was stability. There was no Al Qaeda."

Let's change this up a bit:

"Since 1918, the average German may have gained the right to vote and freedom of speech, but they lost a large degree of personal security. Who knows when the economy will stop sinking? It takes a wheelbarrow full of almost worthless money just to buy a loaf of bread. The Kaiser was a villain, and I'm glad to see him go...but under the Kaiser's Germany...there was stability. There was no Red Front, no inflation, the people were fed and healthy...[this Hitler guy has it right, the German people should be proud of their accomplishments, they never lost on the battlefield, but were instead stabbed in the back, and run roughshod over at Versailles..look at what Mussolini has done for the Italians, my god, the trains even run on time!!!]

Riddle me this, Batman....would you rather live in a Republic that promises "free will", with some measure of risk, or have every single thought, action, motion, and deed, including what you wear to work, where you work, what type of work you do, car you drive, food you eat, paper and TV you read and watch, sports team you support, and woman/man you marry, choosen for you, based on 'the good of the people', with total safety and security?

I'll take that risk for "Free will", which allows me to make dumb mistakes, and succeed or fail.

The 'nanny state' mentality of socialism/dictatorship has been proven, time and again, NOT to work. When people have the freedom to choose, they invariably choose a republic/democracy.

Again, excellent logical, scholarly points !!!!

Personally, as an educated American I would inevitably choose free will !!

But what about a regular Iraqi citizen who just wants to raise their kids and lead a peaceful life?

In the past they had few freedoms but they were safe

Now they can vote but all they see is violence !!!

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Which is why, it's up to 'us' to show them the way. Otherwise, they'll never get the right thing; because sure enough, Iran and Syria aren't going to help them out one little bit.

As far as this bit goes "So lets not hear any crap about "America is not a democracy, it is a Republic", because a republic is a form of democratic government !!!!"

It's not crap, it's the truth. Read between the lines, there; Attention to detail and all that! It is a Republic, not a true democracy. Yes, it's "A FORM" of democratic gummint...but NOT a true democracy.

Recall the Pledge of Allegiance "...and to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands..."

The difference is more than just semantical.

I'm glad your college seems pro military, or at least takes a neutral position. That's good to know.

Your definition of 'moderate', however, may be the consensus definition, here, of "liberal". What you see as a moderate, in other words, conservatives wouldn't.