Iraq Peace Plan Alert

[10thzodiac]

Acts of terrorism around the world have increased by over 100% since our invasion of Iraq. No increase in troops can solve the underlying problems that have caused this situation, but Senator Biden's plan peace will. Support the Biden-Gelb five-point plan and help bring peace - not more troops - to Iraq!

Senator Joseph Biden and Leslie Gelb, President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, have proposed their plan to President Bush and the Council on Foreign Relations. Biden and Gelb have sent a message to our leaders that ending the conflict in Iraq does not need to involve deploying more U.S. troops. Don't you agree?

The only way to hold Iraq together and create the conditions that allow our armed forces to responsibly withdraw is to give Shiites, Sunis, and Kurds incentives to pursue their interests peacefully and to forge a sustainable political settlement. Biden and Gelb outlined how this can be done through the following five steps:

1. Maintain a unified Iraq by decentralizing it in to regions. A central government would be left in charge of common interests.
2. Guarantee Sunis a fair share of oil revenue so that each group has an incentive to maximize oil production, making oil the glue that binds the country together.
3. Create a massive job program while increasing reconstruction aid - especially from the oil-rich Gulf states. This job program would be tied to the protection of minority rights.
4. Hold an international conference that would produce a regional nonaggression pact and create a Contact Group to enforce regional commitments.
5. Begin the phased redeployment of U.S. forces and withdraw most of them by the end of 2007.

This plan is consistent with Iraq's constitution and has been endorsed by many experts on Iraq. It will help rebuild the country while bringing our troops home. Tell President Bush to support the Biden-Gelb five-point plan! Sign the petition at: http://go.care2.com/e/MrB/Qt/BjFy

[outlaw3179]

1. You say maintain....How would this happen without any military presence there?

2.Do you think this would stop Syria, Iran and all the other terrorist countries in the middle east from sending over fundamentalists to achieve their goal of a completly muslim state with absolutely no ties to the west?

This plan looks very good on paper. Do you think it will work?

[10thzodiac]

1. You say maintain....How would this happen without any military presence there?

2.Do you think this would stop Syria, Iran and all the other terrorist countries in the middle east from sending over fundamentalists to achieve their goal of a completly muslim state with absolutely no ties to the west?

This plan looks very good on paper. Do you think it will work?

Tribes deal in absolutes. Their standards of honor cannot be compromised. Crush the tribe in one century, it will rise again a thousand years from now. We're seeing this now in a Middle East where the Crusades happened yesterday. When the tribe negotiates, it is always a sham -- a stalling tactic meant to mitigate temporary weakness. Do we believe Iran is really "coming to the table"? As soon as the tribe regains power, it will abrogate every treaty and every pact.
The tribe has no honor except within its own sphere, deriving justice for its own people. Its code is Us versus Them. The outsider is a gentile, an infidel, a devil.
These are just a few of the characteristics of the tribal mind. Now: what to do about this?
You can't make deals with a tribal foe; they won't be honored. You can't buy them; they'll take your money and despise you. The tribe can't be reasoned with. Its mind is not rational, it's instinctive. The tribe is not modern but primitive. The tribe thinks from the stem of its brain, not the cortex. Its code is of warrior pride, not of Enlightenment reason.
To deal successfully with the tribe, a negotiator of the West must first grant it its pride and honor. The tribe's males must be addressed as warriors; its women must be treated with respect. The tribe must be left to its own land, to govern as it deems best.
If you want to get out of a tribal war, you must find a scenario by which the tribe can declare itself victorious. The tribal mind is canny; it knows when it's whipped. But its warrior pride is so fierce, it cannot admit this. The tribe has to be allowed its face.
It took Alexander three years, but he finally got a handle on the tribal mind. (Perhaps because so many of his own Macedonians were basically tribal.) Alexander produced peace by marrying the daughter of his most powerful enemy, the princess Roxane. The tribe understands such an act. This is respect. This is honor.
Alexander made the tribesmen his equals. He acknowledged their warrior honor. When he and his army marched out to their next conquest, Alexander took the bravest of his former enemies with him as his companions. They rode at his side in stations of honor; they dined at his shoulder in the royal pavilion. (Of course he also beat the living hell out of the Afghans for three years prior, and when he took off, he left a fifth of his army to garrison the place.)
In the end, unless we're ready to treat them the way we did Geronimo, the tribe is unbeatable. They're just too crazy. They're not like us. Tolerance and open-mindedness are not virtues to them; they're signs of weakness. The tribe is too rigid to bend, and it can't be negotiated with.
Perhaps in the end, our leaders, like Alexander, will figure some way to bring the tribal foe around. More likely in my opinion, they'll arrive at the same conclusion as did Lord Roberts, the legendary British general. Lord Roberts fought (and defeated militarily) tribesmen in two bloody wars in Afghanistan in the 19th century. His conclusion: Get out. Roberts' axiom was that the farther away British forces remained from the tribesmen, the more likely the tribesmen were to feel warmly toward them; the closer he got, the more they hated him and the more stubbornly and implacably they fought against him

[outlaw3179]

Ok Zodiac IM not trying to bust your balls but you havent answered any of my questions. All you did was talk about long ago events and crap that doesnt have anything to do with the world you and I are living in right now. Maybe its time to stop living in fantasyville and and actually find a plan that works, accept it and follow through. In my opinion the same reason why every pundit , and every "expert" has all the answers is because all of their answers are shrouded in smoke and mirrors and when you really look at them ...they never say Sh*t.

[Osotogary]

Hate to be Mr. Doomsday but when has hypothetical ever worked in that region? I'd love to see peace and the absence of American Forces in that area. I just don't know. Is Koffi Annon going to be part of this International Conference on nonaggression (hope not)? I'm with the Outlaw. It sure does sound good on paper but too many untruths have been spewed, too many trusts broken and it all may be related to culture. Who can you believe?
10th brings up a good point. It is a land of tribes..it always has been and always will be.
Sure wouldn't mind bringing the troops home.

[10thzodiac]

Ok Zodiac IM not trying to bust your balls but you havent answered any of my questions. All you did was talk about long ago events and crap that doesnt have anything to do with the world you and I are living in right now. Maybe its time to stop living in fantasyville and and actually find a plan that works, accept it and follow through. In my opinion the same reason why every pundit , and every "expert" has all the answers is because all of their answers are shrouded in smoke and mirrors and when you really look at them ...they never say Sh*t.

The easy answer is in my signature below, the hard answer is to advocate for more power and clout to the McCains and the Murthas of the land to start guiding us out of this moral quagmire and failed military gambit. Elections are close-at-hand. How's that for non-partisanship ?

[outlaw3179]

No dont get me wrong. I want to see all of our forces come home today. IM not some warmonger who prays for war everyday but damn , besides cutting and running whos got a good plan? Please tell me we can come up with a better plan than Kerry and Murtha that does not involve looking like cowards and we were beaten by Islamic fundamentalists.

[10thzodiac]

No dont get me wrong. I want to see all of our forces come home today. IM not some warmonger who prays for war everyday but damn , besides cutting and running whos got a good plan? Please tell me we can come up with a better plan than Kerry and Murtha that does not involve looking like cowards and we were beaten by Islamic fundamentalists.

The easy answer is in my signature below, the hard answer is to advocate for more power and clout to the McCains and the Murthas of the land to start guiding us out of this moral quagmire and failed military gambit. Elections are close-at-hand. How's that for non-partisanship ?

[outlaw3179]

No seriously , the same guy whos been talking nothing but awful things about the military , the same guy who has absulutely no idea how the Marines on the ground are doing or feeling, the same guy has over and over repeatedly said things not to improve but to demoralize the men and women over there.....thats your guidance? Seriously ? wow...... ok.

[yellowwing]

The spiel about tribes is good, but I think you wasted some ammo. It has nothing to do with Jumpin' Joe's plan.

The Fundamentalists from Iran and Syria are just old fashioned Lobbyists. They want, on behalf of their sponsor nation, to influence the interpretation of ambiguous points of Biden's or any other plan.

Biden's plan is dependant on too many factors on each point.

1."...common interests..." There will be violence and lobbying to define this.
2. "...fair share..." A business deal negotiated with a gun.
3. "...especially from the oil-rich Gulf states..." Outside interests, including the U.S.A, whose money will be spent will want influence.
4. Well the whole of this point will be more outside lobbying.
5. '...withdraw..." Dependant on all or some of the above goals.

Back to the drawing board Joe!

[narc]

we need to maintain a large force there until syria and iran have been delt with. id rather be strong and wrong than weak and right.

[horselady]

Kill them or be killed. It's the only
language they understand.

[yellowwing]

Bush addresses the U.N.

Bush tried to advance his campaign for democracy in the Middle East during his address to the General Assembly on Tuesday, saying extremists were trying to justify their violence by falsely claiming the U.S. is waging war on Islam.

All these pundits advocating kill'em all rhetoric are making his job harder. Support your President!

(LOL just kidding, you know we we do)

[OLE SARG]

mccain & ms murtha couldn't lead a thirsty camel to water - if they are your guiding light, YOU ARE IN TROUBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mccain is kissing the terrorist's asses and ms murtha's throwing our military under the bus, what a ****ing pair!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[Mike McIntyre]

Zodiac:

Looks great on paper but:
Ø How do you keep the Sunni & the Shiites from killing one another?
Ø How do you keep Iran, who still has not forgotten their little war with Saddam, from turning Iraq into a Muslim Theocracy? (& which Religious Sect?)
Ø Who is going to pay to rebuild the infrastructure? If it is the US, we will demand that our interests are considered!
Ø Peace will have to be maintained. If not the US than whom? THE UN? PLEASE!!!!

I would love to see our troops come home and I think separate states may work but I don’t think there is an easy answer.