OK--But Corps Is Still CORPS!

[GyG1345]

Sergeant/SARgent/SARgeant, etc.
by Dick G (Login Dick Gaines)
Forum Owner

NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER
WASHINGTON NAVY YARD -- 805 KIDDER BREESE SE
WASHINGTON DC 20374-5060
Why is the Colonel Called "Kernal"?
The Origin of the Ranks and Rank Insignia Now Used by the United States Armed Forces
Enlisted Ranks:

Sergeant

The Sergeant started out as a servant, serviens in Latin, to a knight in medieval times. He became a fighting man probably for self preservation because combat in those days often amounted to cutting down everybody in reach, regardless of whether they were armed. He became an experienced warrior who might ride a horse but was not wealthy enough to afford all the equipment and retainers to qualify as a knight. As an experienced soldier he might be called upon to take charge of a group of serfs or other common people forced to serve in an army of feudal levies. The Sergeant would conduct what training he could to teach his charges to fight, lead them into battle and, most important, keep them from running away during a battle. Sergeant was not a rank but an occupation. He might lead others he might fight alone or as a member of a group of sergeants, or he might serve the lord of his village as a policeman or guard. The modern title "sergeant-at-arms" used by many clubs recalls armed Sergeants who kept order at meetings.

The English borrowed the word "sergeant" from the French in about the Thirteenth Century. They spelled it several different ways and pronounced it both as SARgent and SERgeant. The latter was closer to the French pronunciation. The SARgeant pronunciation became the most popular, however, so that when the Nineteenth Century dictionary writers agreed that the word should be spelled "sergeant" they could not change the popular pronunciation. Thus, we say SARgeant while the French and others say SERgeant.

Sergeant became a regular position and then a rank as army organizations evolved. It has been a key rank in British and European armies for several hundred years. When our Army and Marine Corps started in 1775 it was natural that both include Sergeants. The rank's many duties and levels of responsibility have lead to several grades of Sergeant. The Air Force used to have six grades of sergeant, while the Army and the Marines only had five. The sixth grade was a "Buck" Sergeant (E-4). Since the dual (E-4) rank of Senior Airman and Sergeant proved confusing to the other branches of service and did not include more pay and only rarely more responsibility, the Air Force promoted its last Senior Airman to "Buck" Sergeant in May 1990 and phased the rank out over the next six years. At present the Air Force, Army and Marines all have five grades of Sergeant ranging from (E-5) to (E-9).

See Also:
Gunny G's Marines Sites & Forums
for several webpages dedicated exclusively to USMC History of Enlisted Rank, w/photos, text, etc.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html

1 March 1999



Posted on Jan 17, 2003, 10:34 AM
from IP address 66.133.133.195

[greensideout]

One of my Drill Instructors was a buck sergeant, E-4.

He was forced to remove his 3 stripes and replace them with Cpl, E-4 stripes because of rank change.

He was pi$$ed!

One guess who he took it out on! He was a mean one! Perhaps he had a right to be, served in Korea as did the others.

Good night "Sergeant", wherever you are.

Semper Fi

[firstsgtmike]

I have a problem with this one.

Before the air force existed, there were seven enlisted pay grades. In the middle '50's, two more grades were added to the rank/pay structure, one above and one below the NCO level.

An E-2 went from PFC to Lance Corporal (e-3) NOT to Corporal.

An e-4 Corporal went to e-5 Sergeant, NOT to Staff Sergeant.

Etc.

During the changeover, there were many in the "acting" catagory.
You would see an e-3 Corporal, two stripes with NCO club previleges, and an e-3 Lance Corporal without NCO club previleges.

As an e-5, I could not go into a Marine Corps Staff Club, but I was welcomed at the Rocker Club at Kadena AFB. The major difference being the quality and character of your drinking buddies.

(I'd rather share a beer with a Marine brig-rat than an air farce e-9. And if you want to bring officers into the equation, **** off.)

[GyG1345]

Seems like it was july '63 when the transition period ended for the dual rank structure, and those who had not been promoted were required to start wearing the new crossed-rifles insignia/chevrons.

No problem for most had indeed been promoted. but it meant that former sergeants then became corporal, former staff sergeants became sergeants, etc. Former S/Sgts had the most to lose.

In the case of former staff sergeants, the CMC had provided that they would continue to retain their SNCO privileges--SNCO Club/SNCO Quarters, etc. In fact, the transition period had ended earlier than originally indicated.

However, I know of cases where the new sergeants were hassled on their retention of privleges, and were denied entry to the SNCO Club, etc. Mainly because COs and others involved interpreted the directives w/o understanding and/or as they chose to understand the directive.

Though there were not many in numbers reverted, those who were were usally in MOSs where there were few promotions through the years--I knew 3500 field Marines w/12 or more years in grade. In fact, one of the SNCO Club managers who was throwing former SSgts out of his club, had just made GySgt--a former T/Sgt--and had had many, many years in grade before promoted.

When the new rank structure had come in--about Jan '59--I knew of a case where a CO had busted a SSgt (E-5) to Cpl (E-4)--it was eventually overturned by convening authority and the Marine to be reinstated--but the CO reinstated him not to his former SSgt, but to Sgt E-5--same paygrade but he had been a SNCO prior.

So, some starnge things did occur.

DickG

[greensideout]

Firstsgtmike,

"Problem with this one?" Don't know if you are refering to my post or the first.

I jumped past memory to dig out the boot camp book.

MCRD, San Deigo. Third Battalion, Platoon 371.
The Drill Instructor that I was talking about was listed in the book as Cpl G. G. Williamson, JDI. (Wow, he even LOOKED mean!). How could I forget? We never do.

The time frame was Aug/Nov of 1960.

So much for that.

I still have my 1962 "Hill Top Club" membership card from Futema, Okinawa. Never know when I might make it back to blow the foam off a few brews.

The only time I was at Kadena, was to shoot a few touch and goes at night. I was back seat, not a pilot. The air Force put us in a jet pattern. Would have run out of fuel before we got back.
The Navy did no better another time at Naha. The pilot was under the hood for a ground control landing. I had to let him know that they were puting us into the side of a hill as they stated, "on flight path". Sometimes better to fly by the seat of your pants!

Semper Fi

[greensideout]

A little more on the subject:

All promotions '60 to at least '63 that I know about, had "Acting" on them. This was served for six months and then your rank became permanent.
There was a disliking of that word being on the certificate.

Guess they wanted to see if you could handle the new stripe and reponsibility before making it permanent.

[leroy8541]

I went from sergeant to corporal a couple of times and i still had to be squad leader or plt sgt. didn't bother me none or none of my men we still won div.super sqad they didn't care if I was a e-4 or e-5 corporal sgt.like gunny Koon I would a followed him into the fire of hell if he was a PFC and I was a sgt. he had 27 years in the corps and was a gunny!! Acting co. 1st sgt. hell in my mind he was the company commander!! to the troops it don't matter whats on your collar, its what is on your chest and in your chest when the **** hits the fan is when the real leaders come out and whats on thier collar don't mean nuthin!!
A little off the subject huh, sorry. Almost went into a rant.

[yellowwing]

In '89 our MOS was a short field and we were making sergeant in record time. One of our drinking buddies was a salty Motor-T Corporal. When we got to MCLB Albany as Lance Corporals he was a Corporal. When we rotated 2 years later we were Sergeants and he was still a Corporal. (I personally liked the rank of Lance God so much I tried it a few times!)

[Barndog]

39 months Time In Grade 'Lance' GOD. 'Gave' me Corporal. Tried 'to 'give' me Sgt to stay in my MOS in '83 and reenlist.
LOL.

I declined.

Oh, by the way, in the National Guards, I went back to E-3 to enlist (no open E-4 'slots' LOLOL). Went back to E-1. Twice.

Still got out E-4.

Hey leroy, yer rite - whaz on my collar aint jack squat.
Question my Honor and Integrity and see what happens........

It's what's in my heart & soul that matters.