Loyalty Versus Honesty...C&P
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  1. #1

    Loyalty Versus Honesty...C&P

    Why now? Recent events and rumors make this a necessity...

    Loyalty Versus Honesty
    Commentary

    Critical Dilemma -- Loyalty Versus Honesty

    General Joseph P. Hoar, U.S. Marine Corps (Retired)
    Proceedings, January 2005

    The major conflict in the boardrooms of America is caused by the clash between loyalty and honesty. This was the issue I discussed with a friend as we shared pre-dinner drinks this past July—and his succinct appraisal of the state of American business resonated with me.

    In fact, the tension between honesty and loyalty extends far beyond the business community and is raging in the U.S. government. An article in the The New York Times of 3 October 2004 described how uncertainty and disbelief about the acquisition of an Iraqi nuclear capability were played in such a way that the Vice President, the Secretary of State, and the National Security Advisor were able to assert publicly that an aggressive nuclear program was being pursued actively—when none apparently existed. Where were the Directors of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency when the State Department intelligence office cautioned that the facts did not support this view?

    Honesty has been a casualty in the past two years as the U.S. government made major errors planning and conducting the war in Iraq. Moreover, no one has been held accountable and there has been no acknowledgement of failure. President George W. Bush’s characterization of the “catastrophic success”—aside from being an oxymoron—is a poor alibi for mismanagement of reconstruction.

    During the past two years, while traveling in the Middle East and visiting in Washington, I listened to the steady drumbeats of retired and active duty flag and general officers, foreign service officers, civil servants, and officials of friendly Middle Eastern governments: stories of spin and information suppressed, senior leaders enunciating desired goals and then tasking subordinates with finding facts to confirm those goals, promotion denied a CIA operative who did not come up with the “right answer” regarding Iraq’s nuclear program, and offers of assistance in the search for peace and stability rebuffed because they came from “terrorist” or “axis of evil” states. Investigative journalists consistently uncover themes of bad news repressed by the government, which often uses security classification as the means of concealing embarrassing information.

    No one is naďve enough to believe this kind of behavior is new to Washington. But why should many military and civilian officials continue to favor loyalty over integrity? Arguments for loyalty in some cases are those of political affiliation and friendship. Further, disloyalty might well impede career advancement, retirement plans, home mortgages, and tuition for the kids. Finally, there is the argument that “I can do more to fight this kind of behavior inside the government than I can by resigning or going public.”

    The latter view was exemplified in 1971, when former Chief of Staff of the Army General Harold K. Johnson spoke to the student body of the Marine Corps Command and Staff College in an atmosphere of nonattribution. After some 40 minutes of describing the sad state of affairs related to the Vietnam War, an Army major rose to ask him why, given the unsavory situation in 1964-68, he did not resign. General Johnson responded to the effect that he could better deal with the problem inside the government than out. Years later, he regretted his failure to resign his post in protest.

    In the U.S. military services, loyalty and honesty—often described as integrity—are highly prized virtues. They rank right behind courage as prized characteristics of an officer. Although there is perpetual friction and competition between them, we need go no farther than the oath taken by all military officers: “I solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic . . .” This provides the necessary direction as to where our primary loyalties should lie—to the Constitution, not to our commanders. As a matter of custom in the Marine Corps, officer promotion ceremonies include a renewal of that oath to underscore at each promotion that there are new opportunities to contribute. Equally important, it reminds officers their overriding fealty is to the nation.

    Senior military commanders are most likely to face this dilemma. Because their responses are key to high-level policy decisions, they must realize that weighing honesty against loyalty is an abiding responsibility. When the history of the Iraq war is written, we can be sure that historians, journalists, and government officials will connect the dots dividing those who acted out of honesty and those who acted out of loyalty.

    Retired Marine General Hoar, a former commander-in-chief of U.S. Central Command, heads J.P. Hoar and Associates, a consulting firm. He is a member of several boards, including that of the Center of Naval Analyses.


  2. #2
    Marine Family Free Member
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    Thanks, Ricardo, for bringing this thread to the forefront.
    Although I do not have facts and figures in front to validate anything that I will say...I'll just say this; it sure seems like everybody is coming out of the wood work now-a-days to add their two cents, twenty-five cents, whatever, to the fray; the perverbial hindsight factor, if you will. "When the history of the Iraq war is written, we can be sure that historians, journalists, and government officials will connect the dots dividing those who acted out of honesty and those who acted out of loyalty."
    I'm really not that interested in the after the fact connecting of the dots by historians; not now while there are other more pressing concerns like the welfare of our Armed Forces and some stand out and poke me in the eye domestic issues.
    I've got this feeling, and I don't know why, that the President is a good and decent man but he just seems to be mislead, occasionally, by his advisors both politically and militarily (and who knows what individual or group agendas those folks are following).
    I kinda wish that the President wouldn't read from a script all the time. Although he stumbles every now and then I need to have him look me in the eye and say what needs to be said. I need to feel that the sacrifices of our young men and women are not in vain. All of this bickering has got to stop. We could be whining ourselves to death and I don't want to hear about that...after the fact.
    Geez, I just realized that just like everybody else, I just came out of the wood work. May God-Bless our Troops.


  3. #3
    yellowwing
    Guest Free Member
    This is as pertinent as ever. Integrity is being attacked ever day. Our Marine Corps character sees us through the day. We hold each other accountable and expect even more of ourselves.

    Telling the truth should not be labeled as traitorous. Rep. John Murtha met with the Commandant and got the scoop that there was a "very serious incident" at Haditha. Serious enough for the Comandant to drop what he was doing and proceed directly to the front lines.

    The Time Magazine article on Haditha really is thorough and well documented.

    Rep John Kline, a Republican and Marine Corps Veteran, also echos the same after being briefed by the Marine Corps.

    If you read ALL of what these both of these Marines~Congressmen have said, you'll find that they go on to address the underlying factor of 3/1 Kilo Company's action at Haditha.

    There's not enough boots on the ground to adequately protect our Marines. We did a tremendous job in clearing out Fallujah. Why the hell have we not done the same for Ramadi and Haditha?

    Why hasn't Rumsfeld and Company cut the orders to clear these deadly hotspots? This is what we do. Fallujah was a tough fight but our Marines got the job done.

    Its not the media or Murtha putting our Marines in a tough spot. And its not unpatriotic and traitorous to tell the truth.


  4. #4
    Terrific posts here...My sense in this is that loyalty and honesty are not mutually exclusive.... as apparently disheartening as the events in Iraq seem likely to play out for all of us in the near term I am taking some solice in the fact that honesty will prevail out of an overwelming loyalty among most Marines. It won't be fun or pretty and will leave all of us, I think, a bit pained in the process.

    I am not personnally pleased with the way Mr Murtha is playing this currently, but I am inclined to believe he is doing it out of loyalty to the Corps and his personal sense of right and wrong. I can cut him some slack on that basis alone.

    This seems to a good place to post this up as some of the other commentary in other parts of this site are just to over the top for me. The right wing press and the radio voices--most of whom I stongly suspect have never heard a shot zip past their entitled asses under any circumstances--are just too frothy and rabid for my tastes. I have no love either for the left wing zealots either. I wanted to reach through the net and strangle "Pee-aire" who's article came up on another post on this site.

    We'd all do well to understand that "Semper Fi" does not mean you lock step into an intellectual corner.

    Semper Fi !!


  5. #5
    Today while sitting at the VA Hosp I read a article about the young man/MARINE who was blown to pieces by an IED which lead to the civilians being killed, this article was about this young troops uncled who said that MARINES from his nephews squad came under fire fron the sunnis who were using these said civilians as shields, granted they were caught in a bad situation but if this is the case what the hell were our boys suppose to do, throw rocks at them. War is hell and sometimes things do go wrong but I kinda agree with the uncle, he believes these young men just didnt kill them cuz they were there.What really pi**ed me off was hearing some higher brass say this could be the real killer of this war, GIVE ME A FUQING BREAK....... We are in a civil war and shouldnt be there, mission was accomplished way back but as long as bush/cheney are making haliburton $$$ which makes them $$ in return we'll be there until these maggots are voted out.What the press doesnt imform us is if these troops are on there 2nd or 3rd tour,that might play a roll in this, these deferred coward politicians that have never been in uniform need to shut the hell up and as far as rumsfeld goes, he's a complete idiot. Sorry brothers and sisters but this is my opinion as I'm sure theres diehard bush followers.Civilians are up in arms saying vile crap about the MARINES and I just want to smack the stupid outta them they dont realize that its the MARINES who go in 1st.


  6. #6
    Phantom Blooper
    Guest Free Member
    I don't know why the media is making such a big deal over Bush having trouble with his Generals.
    -
    Clinton had trouble with his privates.










  7. #7
    The other day, pResident bush told graduates of one of the military academies (whichever one it was this year) that the war in Iraq would end 'on their watch'. What a slap in the face for those young hard chargers to be told that they would have to go fight, and the next president will have to be the one to clean up bush's mess and pull troops out. Really makes them feel like their 4 years of sacrifice really matters to him huh?
    S/F


  8. #8
    I think anyone who has been alive for more than a few years understands the tug between loyalty and honesty. It plays out in board rooms and businesses, and it plays out on the battlefield and in politics. To remain honest and loyal requires a great deal of discipline and clear thinking.

    Is it either honest or loyal to be second guessing the actions of Marine's we have put in harms way? America is such a fickle place, when we start to beat the war drum, when we go to war, everybody cheers it on -- the minute people start getting killed and the minute the American people start hearing about all the horrible **** that happens when people are f***ing each other up, they want to put you in jail for doing the job you were training and sent to do.

    It would take a great deal of really strong evidence to ever convince me that my brother Marines did anything wrong out there. Think about it, it appears they probably killed women and young children. That happens in war, all the time. They will live with that. But to assert that they were out of control and committed murder. Prove it!


  9. #9
    never having been in combat I wont's even guess. iF T


  10. #10
    if rhe question is one of honesty i choose to believe that the marine in the middle of the situation will have the willingness to do whatever they have to to [rotect their brothers and sisters and get back.


  11. #11
    All I can say is ms murtha and all the other blowhard politicians should at least wait until ALL THE FACTS are in before they start shooting off their two-sided mouths!!!!! I thought in AMERICA YOU WERE INNOCENT UNTIL "PROVEN" GUILTY. Somebody needs to remind fatarse murtha of that FACT!!!!!!!!!!!
    SEMPER FI,


  12. #12
    yellowwing
    Guest Free Member
    Quote Originally Posted by skong222
    if rhe question is one of honesty i choose to believe that the marine in the middle of the situation will have the willingness to do whatever they have to to [rotect their brothers and sisters and get back.
    Exactly! Marines know that and understand it totally. But we are such a small percentage of the populace.

    Murtha has gone out of his way to emphasize that it was a small group, and not to condemn the whole Corps. But Joe Blow from Kokomo is only hearing "women, children, cover up." One side of the media is blasting Joe Blow with, "Yes they did!" and the other side screams at him, "No they didn't."


  13. #13
    The issue of honesty vs. loyalty has been an ever on going battle. There are those who do the very same things as others because they are loyal to them and there are those who did it because they believe it to be the right thing to do. You can find such individuals from the streets of New York and L.A. to the Whitehouse. Ever opinion shpuld be granted it's objectiveness and it's owner's thoughts and rights.

    From the streets where the gangs and mafia are to the very people we elect into a position to take our views and thoughts into account before making a decision on any subject, we will find those who follow the leader and say nothing whether right ro wrong because they feel loyal to those they follow. We will also find those that will supress thier feelings until something disturbs them and they voice thier opinions because they feel they are doing the right thing. It isn't that they are not loyal to those in charge but that they feel that they are not doing the right things and wish to correct it. Whether it's Mr. Murtha, President Bush, Mr. Rumsfield or any average man or women on the planet.

    Take for example the last voting extravaganza from Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry. Whether we all agreed or not on who would do the best job in the Oval Office Mr. Bush did win. But the entire Campain on both sides was a joke and far from the issues that needed addressed. Mr. Kerry would rather jump on the fact that another Canidates Daughter was a lesbian yet his daughter was wearing attire fit for a hooker at the same time. Mr. Kerry's Daughter had on a damn near see through dress on. Mr. Bush's Campain was totally on the reasons of why he deserved whatever ribbons because he served in a war and Mr. Kerry didn't, which was argued continuiosly throughout the campains of both. So id both of the Campain Managers dig up enough dirt on the other Canidates or was it that neither one wished to appraoch the issues because they didn't have any answers worth sharing and just figured that by white washing the other Presidental Canidate was easier???? Either way the voters were left with nothing to really choose from and were voting on blind spots and taking the lesser of the two evils. We all can see where the loyalty was but where was the honesty? Who was telling the truth and who was just trying to get by? Yet in the opposite direction we have young lives on a day to day basis that are between living and dying on the streets. They kill each other over turf and drugs. Money plays a big factor in most of it but there are loyaltists to each gang and most believe that what they are doing is the right thing. Honesty being shown that they are will to stand up for what they think is right and loyalty for thier " Family " no matter what happens to them. Big Business's push these young people as problems to be handled by our Judicial System and our Jails are being flooded by these misguided childern that no-one seems to care about. Yet if there were something to happen in the USA by a forgein country these same young people would be forced into action in the military to surpress the enemy. But while they are just killing each other off no-one cares to see what the reasons are for. It is just one less person in our already over filled jail populace that we don't have to pay for. But these young men and women start in poverty and are trying to live the American dream that they are being deinied because of thier social stature.

    So as I Finish my opinion of this I wish to tell all what I have read in many newspapers. If you are born rich everything will be done to make sure that whatever you did wrong will be covered up if possible. If you are born into the system then everything you do will be thrown into your face and all bad things will be punishable to the fullest extent of the law. The Newspaper has in it a Question...why isn't the " upper classmen's " Childern joining into the military no a days? It seems that the lower classmen's child is more willing to try to gain a foot hold on life and use whatever is needed to gain a life to get out of where they grew up. The rich man's child is garanteed to be an officer while the lower man's child struggles to make it to Chief Warrant Officer. It seems that the rich man's child is born lazy and deceitful...born to make the almighty dollar and spend it at a moments whim while the lower man's child has to continue to fight and struggle to gain a foot hold and stay on the right track in life having to watch everything they spend and yet try to save enough for thier retirement. The Paper asks...Why isn't the childern being treated as equals rather than being treated as opposites? I wish I could answer that but that is also just some-one else's opinion.


  14. #14
    The other side of the argument is that it becomes really easy to hate people who hate you...to kill people who are trying to kill you...to kill people who have killed your fellow Marines. A good leader keeps his unit disciplined so they do not act out on those innate desires...a poor leader may not have the self-discipline to prevent those feels from becoming overwhelming. **** happens in war. But we need to wait until we hear what happened, not rush to judgment and start executing people in the court of public opinion. As I mentioned earlier, the American people are a fickle lot, with very short attention spans.


  15. #15
    Hate is easy. To find a loyal and honest person is hard. We can all hate but can we all face the mirror and say " I did what was right "? Maybe what was right to you isn't the right thing for the next person. But you are right that America is fickle and does have a minute long attention span. They would rather imprison war vets for supposed misdeeds than to listen to the defense or the actual story of the event. It seems that whatevere is printed in black and white is the " truth " and what actually happened is wrong. But yet you don't see these accusers doing any type of military serice in most cases. They would rather sit back and try to find wrong doings in events that are known for collateral damage. I am sick of hearing of my brothers and sisters in arms having to defend themselves because of supposed war crimes. That is what this War is...a crime from another country being solved by the international police force...America.


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