How elite are we?

[SuNmAN]

I hope this post doesn't get deleted because I really really would like to know what you guys think about this, even though I'm probably just going to get burned by everyone for saying this, but -

I now find it "weird"...or maybe even "amused" (I don't know any other word to use) when somebody says "IF you make it through boot camp" or "you might not make it through boot camp" or "only the best will graduate"

because to me personally even though boot camp sucked, and it was hard physically/emotionally but it was nothing that an average person shouldn't be able to complete.

The fact that washout rate is only 10% really says something. Haha, when you tell someone he might not make it through its like kinda implying he must be a bottom 10% sh*tbag...

I think we graduate a lot of people that should NEVER have graduated and should've been sent packing. Like a guy I saw when I was in boot camp, he FELL OUT of the moto-run before the EGA ceremony...no, not because he was injured, but because he sucked at running.

Then I remember at MOS school we had a few "Marines" (reluctant to call them that) that ran 30 minute PFT runs...what a disgrace.

Several "Marines" in my battalion are incapable of doing ONE pullup.

Geez, everytime I see this I think to myself - how can we make such claims like "we are elite" or "we are the finest fighting force in the world" when some members of our organization can't even pass PFT test with ludicrously low standards??

I'm pretty sure that our counterparts in Britain and Korea (Royal Marines and ROK Marines) have far higher standards for their recruits than we do.

Its probably never going to happen but I strongly believe that we need to cut our Marine Forces in half and heavily increase some of our standards, especially in the physical fitness department. I say if you can't do 6 pullups and run a mile and a half in 11 minutes you shouldn't even be ALLOWED to go to boot camp.

Anyways...Yeah I'm probably gonna get burned by everyone for saying this, and I probably don't have to right to say a lot of this stuff considering I've never been to war, but I've never ran less than a first class PFT and I was a meritorious Lance Corporal, just kind of sick of seeing "unsat" Marines.

Really like to know what the rest of you guys think !

[Bige1371]

Well I would agree with you point that Marines should be able to at least meet minimal standards. But do you think that the Pft is the most important thing about bieng a Marine? It is important but so is knowing you Mos and bieng an effective leader along with many other things. If you have a Marine that runs a 300pft but is a weak leader, has a bad attitude, or dosen't know thier Mos how effective is that Marine? On the other hand if there is a Marine who runs a 200pft and is strong in all of the above skills he is a very effective Marine.

[junker316]

SuNmAN you say " I now find it "weird"...or maybe even "amused" (I don't know any other word to use) when somebody says "IF you make it through boot camp" or "you might not make it through boot camp" or "only the best will graduate"

Your Drill Instructors aer there to see the potentual in each and every Marine. A real Marine isn't just a PT Freak with big Quads or Bi-ceps. They also know thier Primary MOS and maybe even a Secondary MOS. They are there when another Marine needs them and a brother or sister to all other Marines. Regaurdless of thier PFT score. There are still Marksmanship, Knowledge, and other issues that create Marines. Just becasue some Marine makes a 300 PFt doesn't mean that he/she is also an Expert rifleman. Or maybe they know thier MOS well enough to complete a mission. I personnally don't find it " amusing " to judge a Marine on PFT score alone. If that was the case the Marine Corps would be nearly as big as it is and the promotion system would not be needed. Have you concidered the age group as well. I went through Boot Camp at 31, Graduated, and felt proud of being a Marine. I didn't run a 16 minute 3 mile nor did I do 20 pull ups. But I had a 1st class for my age group. One thing I did have that most failed to have was prior knowledge of the games that were being played to bust you diwn and rebuild you as a Marine. I also strived to be the best marine I possible can on a daily basis. Doing what is right even though no-one is looking.

Your right...I could chew you apart for just about everything you wrote. But I won't. You will learn soon enough that everything you do and say makes you a Marine. Not just a score for a PFT.

[hrscowboy]

Another thing is where in the world do you think that your going to run 3 miles in 30 minutes with 100 lbs on your back. I dont give a rats behind how fit you are you are not going to do it. I couldnt have ran 3 miles in 30 minutes in the jungles of Vietnam it just couldnt be done No.1 the terain wouldnt let you and No.2 you might have died because of setting off booby traps. Yes i agree its good to be in good shape but i have seen the best and I mean the best that had fallen out in combat due to the heat or the terrain.
As long as you know your Mos and can do it well than I dont give a rats behind how many push-ups or how many miles you can run... enuff said

[RLeon]

I agree with SuNmAN, but you have to look at the reason a Marine perfroms poorly physically. It's al about the attitude.
I don't have a problem with Marines who aren't in the 300 club.
I never made a 300 pft...and when they got rid of kipping in pull-ups a lot 300drop a class or two.
I have a problem with Marines who do poorly physically becuase the don't care and don't put in the effort.
If they don't care enought to be in the best shape they can be, that shows a weakness in their character.
The same goes with the riflerange, some guys just aren't born marksman, that's fine, but I've known Marines who didn't care, hated the rifle range, so they didn't put in the effort to get the best score they could. They just went throught the motions and settled for the least they coul get. Often those guys would cheat by making sure thier buddies were in the butts...gee, that will really help you out in th battlefield.
It's all about the attitude.

[GunnyL]

As for the drop rate in Recruit Training, a lot of work goes into putting each and every Recruit on those yellow foot prints. Lots of Screening, EST testing and motivational classes go into each and every recruit who arrives in San Diego and PI. Marine Corps Recruiters are responsible for each Recruit they put on those yellow footprints until the day they step across the parade deck and are graduated as Marines. Our counterparts in the Air Force, Army and Navy are relieved of their responsibility when they get on the bus at MEPS. Drill Instructors are there to take the workable clay they receive in those Recruits and mold them into Marines in the course of 13 weeks. Drill Instructors don't get graded on the number of Recruits they drop from Recruit Training. Not every Recruit is going to Graduate but Drill Instructors work with the Recruiters to keep every Recruit Motivated to become a Marine. I had to call down to the Depot on several occasions and remind some of my Recruits why they were there.
It's not about who can run the fastest PFT, it's about who has the Mental Fortitude to follow through, to keep pushing when you feel like you can't push anymore. Somehow, Marines always manage to reach inside and find a little more.

GunnyL

[jryanjack]

SuNmAN,

While none of us can comment about what happened in your boot camp platoon as we weren't there, I have to disagree with you. You cannot look at any one statistic and make global assumptions. A 10% fail rate in boot is fine, given, as GunnyL pointed out, the selection criteria - recruiters are eliminating potential drops before they hit boot camp, which is what their job is. Also, how is that 10% measured - is that saying that 10% of all recruits who go to MCRD drop, or 10% from each individual platoon - without drop/adds, i.e. a recruit who starts in your platoon is dropped back to and it takes him an extra phase to graduate - is that part of the 10% or not? If I recall correctly, my platoon started with 70 recruits, and graduated 50 some odd, however not all of the 50 started with us at the same time, we had a couple come to us from PCP or were med holds.

To answer your subject question - how elite are we? We are THE ELITE, in the world, as a Corps there is no other organization of similiar size that can do what the USMC can do. And PFT scores, boot camp drop rates, rifle range scores, etc are not the true measure - its all about accomplishing the mission. In my experience, PFT scores, rifle range scores, NATOPS qual scores, etc are all barracks issues, and have their place. However, as Murphy's Law of Land Combat states - No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection and no inspection ready unit has ever passed combat. Since inception, the USMC has never not passed a combat mission - that's what makes us elite.

[Old Marine]

You have to be able to perform you duties when you arrive at the objective.
You can run to the objective and get there in 5 minutes and not perform or you can hump there and take 15 minutes and kick hell out of the enemy.

[MARK MOORE]

We are elite because of or 230 year battle record, we have earned our title as the of Devil Dog and recognized as a feared fighting force for what we have accomplished in war and not in the gym. Spend more time studing Marine Corps battle history and less time in the gym and you would understand why we are elite. ( if you have to ask that question then you don't deserve to wear the Eagle Globe & Anchor)...

[outlaw3179]

We trained with the Dutch before. Now I can honestly say all of them were PT Studs. Every single one of thees guys could do tons of pullups, all of them smoked most of us during the running part of our pft. So Physically theese guys were maniacs. We were training down in Kentucky during urban warfare in one of the armys mout towns. When it was us vs. them they were no match. The speed wich we moved and the small unit tactics wich were employed there really was no comparison between us. Marines are instilled that failure is not an option. That we locate close with and destroy. Thats the mindset that Marines have. I think that is what seperates us from all the other services and makes us a better fighting force than everyone else. Small unit leadership and the ability to make decisions regardless of rank or billet. I understand what your saying about how some Marines are not pt studs but thats fine. Those same Marines are the ones who posses the ability to not only survive in a firefight, but to aggresive fighting force and thats what is really important

[rktect3j]

You're right, I am going to burn you. But it is from one brother to another. First thing is that the average person/civilian out there doesn't have the proper motivation to get through boot camp. And those mostly get weeded out before they enter boot camp. They also do not make the grade educationally believe it or not. Last I saw 7 out of 10 young people have a high school diploma. The drop out rate is far too high here. Then you have to remember that although PT is important it is not the end all be all of the Corps. Marines are so much more then muscle and bone. Now you may be right that some Marines who graduate might ought not to have. But you are not the judge of these Marines. They made it through and are our brothers as well. Boot camp is about passing the minimum standards while attempting the maximum you can put forth to represent the Corps. Also, I see that you wrote EGA. Please refrain from doing this. I think people now write this to save time or they saw it on a jpeg or bmp file. It is "Eagle, Globe and Anchor" my frind, never EGA. If you are going to hold others up to a standard you had better be at the top of it. No short cuts. As for some Marines that you know who might have let things slip a bit, help motovate them and get them back up there. Yes they aren't poster board Marines but then neither are you if your attitude isn't one of wanting to help them along. Being a Marine isn't about dropping dimes on people, that is for certain. Don't try to make yourself look better by pointing out others faults. If PT is your thing, great. If there isn't enough of it I can only suggest you join Force Recon. I was in 1st Light Armored Recon and can tell you that 3 mile runs don't exist except for the PFT. Every other day was no less then 5 mile runs after about 45-60 minutes of calistetics (sp). I dropped back on several occasions myself but never out fortunatly because I had Marines trying to motovate me the entire time.

[RLeon]

We are elite because of or 230 year battle record, we have earned our title as the of Devil Dog and recognized as a feared fighting force for what we have accomplished in war and not in the gym. Spend more time studing Marine Corps battle history and less time in the gym and you would understand why we are elite. ( if you have to ask that question then you don't deserve to wear the Eagle Globe & Anchor)...

That's pretty harsh.
Esprit de Corps, Intestinal Fortitude and our high Standards are what make us elite. PART of our high standards is physical fitness... those standards are there for a reason. When you start being lax in one aspect of Marine Corps discipline the fabric that makes up our status as elite warriors breaks down.
No one is going to run 3 miles in 30 min with 100lbs, that's not the purpose of the PFT. The purpose is to make sure we don't bonk on the battle field...If a guy can't do the minimum there is something wrong...we must maintain these standards...It's part of what sets up apart from the other services.
When you're out of shape it effects you in every other aspect. Vince Lombardi said it best "fatigue makes cowards of us all" and we have thousands of years of warfare to back this statement, the Marine Corps knows this, that's why PFT is so important.

In other words Marines are elite because we are the Baddest Mofos ever to stomp their boots on Gods Earth. PART of that reason is because of our high physical standards which allow us to hump an 80 pound pack 20 miles, charge a heavily protected machine gun position, wipe out the first 50 bad guys with rifle fire, and rip apart the rest with our bayonets on our rifles.
You ain't doing any of this if you were out of shape and you fell out of the hump 10 miles back...by the time you reach the action it will be over.

Semper Fi.

[bugs]

Sunman,
Do you understand what being a Marine is all about yet? During prac, learning about our great history and traditions, I dont ever re-call the mentioning of how our past brothers over the years, have performed at such levels as you almost suggest (dont want to put words in your mouth) that we have always adhered to. There was no mention on any of our historic brothers and their performance in a pft?
I agree with the other Marines here, it's up to you and our other brothers to motovate these other Marines that have a hard time with their pft, humps, whatever they may seem to fall a little short on, remember we take care of our own, race, age, sex, or pft doesnt matter, we are all brothers and no one is held any higher than anyone else, yes some have higher ranks, but thats it!

Just my thoughts is all.........

[redneck13]

If you got it in your head that if a person can't lift 450-600lbs off some bench, or can't do one pushup, or run 3 miles in 17min. it don't mean that that Marine cain't perform when it really counts. As Cowboy said, in the jungle's, I never could run very fast, but I got the gitty up and go as my rear end was on the line....And I ain't never seen anyone outrun a bullet, or muscles save them.
It it "GREAT TO BE IN SHAPE" yes. Don't tear down "MY BELOVED CORPS" because some Marine's don't suit your cup of tea. I'll take any Jyreen, fat, slim, otherwise into battle, because I know they are the one, the only, the best, and The "ELITE", and we'll get 'r done my Friend. SF, that is all..Cary on Maggot's.

[jryanjack]

RLeon,

You have a valid point - all Marines should be held to the minimum standards, and from my experience they are. My issue with the OP was that it implies that a) our standards are not high enough, and b) that most Marines are not meeting the too low standards that we already have. And that, from my point of view, is not an accurate statement.

However, the question posed by Sunman was have we ceased to be elite - and my answer is no - we as a Corps, have not ceased to become elite. Our elite status is not a result of average PFT scores, its a result of our battle history, our mission, and confirmed by our current battlefield performance.

There will always be the 10% we all heard about in boot camp and probably experienced at one time or another in the Fleet, however, we are not defined by the 10%, we are defined by the 90%.