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11-24-02, 02:10 PM #1
To make sure the Poolees see this
In time, Drifter's original thread will be overlooked or dismissed by the younger folks. I want to place the link to it here as an object lesson for them.
This is only one reason why we ride yer butts and expect you to think, and to take responsibility for your words and deeds. If you don't pay attention to detail and have concern for your fellow Marines, things like this will happen a lot.
In the Marine Corps, other people's lives depend on how well you do your job.
Accidents happen, but there is always a chain of events leading up to them in which someone has responsibility. You are one of the links in the chain of events that can get the wrong people killed at the wrong time. If your link "breaks"., others, perhaps you, yourself, will pay the price.
11-24-02, 09:42 PM #2
Thats too bad...This is a time when Gunny would say, "attention to detail will kill you everytime!" This just puts things into a different perspective for me though. I know things like this happen but when you get a speciffic example things are always different.
11-25-02, 12:48 AM #3firstsgtmikeGuest Free Member
All I know about this is what I read in the same article you did.
I will comment on the last six paragraphs.
"Leftover ammunition" should ALWAYS be collected after leaving a training range.
The difference between live and blank rifle ammunition has always been easily distinguishable in appearance. Segregation will be an improvement over observation.
No more live and blank fire exercises on the same day? I never ran into that situation. It could be either sensible or overkill.
More range safety officers. Sounds good, but unnecessary if everyone is doing their job.
Ammunition issue unique to SOGs, because of their high level of training. Every time I requalified, or went through "combat town" training, no distinction or allowances were made because of someone's higher level of training. (or rank)
Bottom line, either someone screwed up, or procedures became lax.
Yes, the shooter is most responsible, and I would assume he will bear the psychological scars of that for the rest of his life.
My advice to you is; "Don't EVER overlook the basics". They were put in place for a reason, don't ever feel that you have outgrown them. The price you may have to pay is not worth it.
A twenty year pilot still breaks out the check off sheet to run down the pre-flight procedures. His life, and those of his passengers may depend on it.
Cagayan de Oro
11-25-02, 01:16 AM #4
A couple of rules of thumb fer Marine Aviation
1) Don't memorize torque values
2) Never memorize the MIMS (Maintenance Instruction Manuals).
3) Always look up what you need to know in the MIMS.
Ya start tryin to memorize stuff, you get in trouble
Chesty spent several years in Asia and the Far East, yet during the trip on ship to Korea, he had several books that he read and studied in a matter of a few days concerning Korea and the Far East.
Quality Control when I was working on CH-53's and CH-46's required that:
1) the Marine did the job and checked his own work and operation of the system, if he had a fellow Marine helping, he also checked the work and operation of the system.
2) A Collatral Duty Inspector, FAA certified, checkd the work and operation of the system.
3) When required, a Quality Assurance Inspector, also FAA Certified, checked the work and operation of the system.
4) The Crew Chief would often check the work and operation of the system.
5) The Pilots would often check the work and most certainly the operation of the system
6) Some systems, when worked on, required a test flight that often took several hours to complete
Just one of these Marines not doing their job properly could, and has killed Marines.
I won't even talk about the paperwork!
As the First Sergeant said. Someone dropped the ball. It would sound as if several "someones" did.
In some circles, the set up of events that lead to an "accident" is called a "Safety Chain". If one link is overlooked or misplaced or ignored, disaster often results.
As a Marine, you will be one of those links. Lives will depend on you.
11-25-02, 12:20 PM #5
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
I read this somewhere thought it was cool.....
If you like shooting (a lot), and want a complete change of lifestyle, to include a deeply ingrained pride of service, commitment, and sense of loyalty, the Marine Corps may be just what you're looking for. This may be a minor point, but it is very telling: When you ask an airman what he does, he will respond, "I'm in the Air Force." When you ask a sailor what she does, she'll respond, "I'm in the Navy." If you ask a Marine what he does, he'll say "I am a Marine."
11-25-02, 09:44 PM #6
- Join Date
- Nov 2002
I think that goes like this if you ask a soldier what he does he will reply infantry airborn etc. if you ask an air force personnell what they do they will reply, i work on planes or whatever it is they do if you ask a squid he will reply i work on ships or planes whatever it is they do if you ask a marine what he does he will reply i am a marine. regardless of what is they they do.
11-25-02, 11:03 PM #7
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
- Tulsa, Ok
Let's see if this sounds familiar to anyone.
Before Firing begins:
1) Visually check each magizine to make sure ammo is loaded and seated correctly.
1) When you complete firing perform a visual AND physical inspection of your weapon and ALL magazines.
2) Return all un-used ammo to the tower (Block/RSO)
3) Be RE-CHECKED by the non-firing SNCO.
In my book, that is atleast three safty checks. 1) visual 2) physical 3) third party (non-fire SNCO). This has been the same for the past 10 years on every range and every training evolution I've been in.
It sounds like the "weak link" in the safety chain was the entire chain.
11-26-02, 03:48 AM #8
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
One thing I still remember to this day that Gunny Clayton told me......
"The day when you think you know everything about a Huey, is the day when you or someone else gets killed'.
In other words Complacency KILLS.
You are NOT THAT GOOD with other peoples lives. If I ever heard a Gunny tell me that 'attention to detail would kill me everytime', I guess I'd be in the brig, cause I'd be kicking his a$$ for that statement.
I had an army Ssgt do that in the National Guards - right out of artillery - came into a helicopter unit and tried to pull rank one me.
Had to show the Ssgt that Rank doesn't always have privlege when it comes to lives, knowledge and equipment.
Use your head for something other than a cover rack.
11-26-02, 10:19 AM #9
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
I agree, it looks as if the entire chain was weak. However, one person could have changed the outcome. It only takes one person to notice the error and correct it, even if dozens of others have screwed it up. A lot of people are going to have to pay for this mistake; the PFC with his life, a few others with a possible court-martial, and everyone in the chain with their guilt for the rest of their lives.
... not worth it to save a few seconds of time if you ask me.
02-13-03, 03:11 AM #10
Bringing this to the top for the new kids in the AO.
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