Either Fight The War Or Come Home

[greensideout]

Mr Carey, you ain't got it figured out yet?

Tell me what we won fighting for U.S. Policy in Vietnam?

Go to the wall---take a look around---and you tell me it was worth the price.

Either kick ass in Iraq or get the Hell out!

[jirzman]

Mr Carey,
I agree with you to an extent.I am a Marine but nowhere in my "Oath" did it say give up being an American first.Being a Marine,does not mean giving up your right to speech,or express your views.Nowhere does it say,you give up your right to disagree,as long as you,as a Marine,still get the job done.I served my country and was wounded fighting for what my government felt was the right thing to do.I didn't agree with all of the policies,decisions,or civilian interference,but I knew my job and performed it well.Osotogary,Fox2/23 and anyother Marine,have that right to disagree with the way the "WAR" if it is that,is being fought.The coflicts you spoke of,atleast we knew the enemy and blasted the hell out of them.When we are loosing our Troops to roadside bombs,idiots blowing themselves up to kill our troops,and we are tied down with having to deal with "Civilians" worried about the handling of the Koran rather than our troops getting blown to bits,we need to us a different strategy,or get out.Turn the Marines and Troops loose or they will continue fighting an invisible enemy.
As always,well written Ellie

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by hrscowboy
The buttom line is gentlemen we fight a war to win no bars held and thats what these government people need to be told.. We fight to win and win only and No One tells us how to fight it.. We fight to win thats the buttom line and if government dont want it that way then we dont need to be fighting at all... enuff said..

The secret to America's Armed readiness is the constant fighting that its military does. The only real Military that has any actual combat in the the last Fifty Years has been the US Military. We were losing our edge because many of the Vietnam era vets were out of the fight, or going out of the fight by the time that Desert Shield got started, and ten years later here we are in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is a great live fire range, which no one else in the world has.

The only thing that keep us at peace in the world is the constant readiness of the Armed Forces. You do not think that that dildo head Kim in Korea is afraid of anything other than the US Forces that he may face. He may have a well trained 2,000,000 man army, but who have they fought since 1955? Besides, he does not have the logistics to go after the South Koreans. Six months after he starts a war in South Korea, his supplies would be used up, and his soldiers would starve, not to mention already being decimated by a force one tenth its size. He would not use Nukes, becuse it would not make sense to do so. After all, he wants the industrial power of the South Koreans and the agricultural base that the South has. What good would it do for him to destroy it with radiation?

The Chinese have a professional Army, but they too have always been a land based army and never much interested in expansion for the last 500 years, and to expand to areas in the south would be counter productive, as when they tried before in the late 70's, the North Vietnamese threw them back the 50 miles they entered the nort of Vietnam.

But the North, Manchuria, Mongolia, and the west, the Russias and the former Soviet Satellite States may be an option, but no bread basket for them there, besides, the Communists have another problem, Communism is dying in Communist China, and Capitalism is now taking over. They have no sea power so to speak, and even if they build the planned five fleets of a Navy in the next ten years, with Aircraft carriers, they would be an untried navy to say the best. Japan would beat them in a naval battle, because Japan has the premier naval fleet in the Asian Pacific, next to the Americans.

The Middle East and Central Asia are the problems for the world, because they are midevil in nature and politics. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, if they could just win one major battle. Democracy is that battle.

Democracy is a disease. It spreads internally in governments of authoritarian regimes like it did in Europe with the formation of the American Colonies into a single country. Monarchies fell left and right, and parlimentry goveornments replaced them in just a rather short time of the historial clock.

Even in the Middle East, there are signs of Democracy's power currupting the tribal rule of centuries. The Saudis have a limited experiment in elections, the Egyptians as well, the Palestinians, and the Lebanese are taking the country to the people.

In Central Asia, Afghanistan is a start, Pakistan will come next, and finally Syria and Iran, probably Iran first to the west of Afghanistan.

The Cucassus, Georgia and other former socialist satalite states have now gone the way of Democracy. Little by little Democracy wears away at despots, but it must have its seed.

The insurgents would like to delay the process, and only our leaving can stop the growth. I say we are on the right road, but we must be patient. After all, Rome was not built, or destroyed in only a day. It took years and blood to build Rome, and it only took years of complacency and self protection to destroy it.

Iraq is very important, and it is just as important that they be able to defend themselves. Give them time to get blooded to build sprit de corps in their units. It will happen, but we must pull back to allow this to happen, and that does not mean to leave, it only means to allow them to fight their own battles, it means to hold their hand, until they can clench their fist. This is the battle for democracy, and we are winning. Don't pull the plug now!

[Phantom Blooper]

Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

[hrscowboy]

Yes and it only took 2 atom bombs to bring japan to there knees and a surrender. Buttom line kick there arses and take no prisoners and forget what other countries think. These people drew first blood on sept 11 not us.. enuff said

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by greensideout
Mr Carey, you ain't got it figured out yet?

Tell me what we won fighting for U.S. Policy in Vietnam?

Go to the wall---take a look around---and you tell me it was worth the price.

Either kick ass in Iraq or get the Hell out!

Green side out,

That is an interesting question. What did we win fighting for US Policy in Vietnam?

I guess the first thing I would have to say, to answer a question with a question, is what would have happened had we not gone into Vietnam?

Instead of only Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos falling, perhaps we could have added Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand to the list. Maybe, even Australia and New Zealand and the Philippine Islands. Who knows what the future would have brought. I do know that the North Vietanmese would have had another 1.5 Million Soldiers that they did not have because of us. I also know know that we probably would have had to make an opposed beachhead landing somewhere in Vietnam, or some other country in the area, and started from scratch on a beachhead somewhere under truly severe conditions.

I know that We would have been without Oil and Natural Gas from the fields of Indonesia and Vietnam. I know that we would have been overwhelmed with refugees from SE Asia. I know that we would not have held the Philippines Islands for very long, because of the HUK rebels there being supplied from SE Asia, and I know that we may have been fighting in the Koreas again.

We were there for eleven years, and we gave the rest of the SEAsian Countries a chance to build up their defenses, and to learn to stop the takeover of their countries.

In truth, I believe that had we landed a Division of Marines in North Vietnam, which the Russians feared most of all, we would have been able to cut off the enemy from the use of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, the war would have been over in 6 months, and it would have saved thousands of American Lives, but we didn't. Too bad! No Guts; no Glory!

I also know that the Congress of the USA cut off the legs of the President by cutting off the funding for the war, while the President was in negotiations with the North Vietnamese for an acceptable truce and some standards by which there still would have been a South Vietnam today, and maybe a free Cambodia, and a free Laos would have come from an acceptable truce, but the Congress took the tools away from the President that he surely needed. I do know that the Congress of the USA did fail to keep its word to the South Vietnamese, and they did fail to deliver military hardware that was already appropiated for them. I do know that the Congress of the USA failed to honor the Truman Doctrine and the Military and Economic Agreement that we had with the South Vietnamese since 1950. And, I dop know that when the Communists broke their agreement with the USA, the Congress failed to act.

Tell me now, what did it do for our credibility to walk out on an ally, to turn our back, and to have 45 Million people turned over to the Communists?

Boo Hoo! We kicked Butt in Vietnam, it was our elected Representatives that sold us out, and the Communist knew they would. They invested heavy in political campaigns of the peace candidtes. They invested great amouts of money here in the USA with the peace movements to defeat us. All they had to do was wait and to absorb their loses, and in time they would win.

Can you see a pattern here? Does it sound familiar? It is the same thing that the Fundamentalists are doing to us in Iraq. It is the standard operating procedure against the backboneless Ameican Politicians and US Public.

If you do not want something bad enough, it will never be yours. We did not want Vietnam bad enough, now you would have the same thing happen in Iraq. Shame!

[Osotogary]

Mr. Carey,
How many "grunts" were involved in active combat rolls during the Vietnam War? Seems to me that the percentage was small compared to the administative machine that was in place at that time. Was it 3 out of every 10 serviceman? My memory isn't serving me very well this morning. If the percentages had been flip-flopped to 7 combat 3 admin can you imagine what the results would have been? I'd like to see a 7 combat to 3 admin ratio in Iraq.

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Osotogary
Mr. Carey,
How many "grunts" were involved in active combat rolls during the Vietnam War? Seems to me that the percentage was small compared to the administative machine that was in place at that time. Was it 3 out of every 10 serviceman? My memory isn't serving me very well this morning. If the percentages had been flip-flopped to 7 combat 3 admin can you imagine what the results would have been? I'd like to see a 7 combat to 3 admin ratio in Iraq.

Actually, I always thought, when you include all support troops, including the Air Wing, it was a ratio of 17 support troops to one combat Marine (17:1), but the number sounds so rediculous that I can not believe that number. You would have to remember, that no unit, most specifically the line Companies, were not TO Strength.

Even giving you something a little closer to home, by experience, My Company (Kilo 3/7) when in the field, in full force, numbered approximately 100 Marines (TO at that time was something in the neighborhood of 247 enlistedmen and officers; If I remember, TO was actual Present and accounted for, meaning men in sick bay and temporarily seperated from the unit [Brig, Hospital, Training Assignments, what have you, but still on the Company roster]). If the other companies of the Battalion were in roughly the same shape (TO Strength), that means that the Battalion in the field, with no Company held in reserve, was roughly 400 Marines. You can take it from there. That means 1200 Marines for a Regiment, and 3600 0300 Marines for a Division. When you include The Artillary Regiment for the Division, that was another added 1000 Marines. We were a reinforceed Division, so there may have been 6000 to 7500 actual Grunts, maybe 10000 when you added in H&S units. According to the records of the day, there were 52,000 Marines in Country when I was there, but then again, that was TO Strength units, and I do not think any unit was TO Strength in Vietnam when I was there. Everybody was short handed! But using those numbers, if they were actual numbers, that breaks out to approximately 52 (Support troops) : 10 (Combat Infantry Marines), or closer to 5:1, when rounded off.

To add a little in support of these numbers, I know, when the full company went into the field, take for instance Operation Texas, we only used 14 Helicopters to transport the whole company into the field. Each of those 'old giant Grasshoppers' held 6 to 8 men depending on the equipment they were transporting with the men, so that gives us numbers in the field of from 84 to 112 Marines in the field for the company. I believe we lost in 2 KIA and 24 WIA in the operation (I was one of the WIA). That was a lose of 32% of the Company at low number of Marines, and 21% at the optimum number of Marines in the field, but, by TO Strength, that number would have only been 10% (a little over) if they used the TO Strength of the company, which they did when releasing information to the news media, that was considered light casualties.

I don't know if that answered your question, but it is the best I can do from the top of my head, using information that was available to me at the time, and personal observation.

[Osotogary]

Mr. Carey,
Thank you for your response. It was certainly more than I expected and I appreciate your effort.

I guess 5 to 1 will have to be the benchmark for combat but I never thought that it would ever be that high or comprehend it ever being that high until......
..I formed this peacetime analogy-correct or not.

With the professional motor racing that I have seen on television you have one driver, one car, and maybe five guys in the pit (I'm not sure of the exact amount), plus the guys that are keeping tabs on your fuel, time around the track etc., etc. Ball park figure might make the driver to support team a 10 to 1 ratio and that is just auto racing! They are all doing the very best they can to win and then go home.

Why should war be any different?

Thanks again. I need a beer. Ladies, I know it's Ladies Night but can you find it your hearts to provide a two litre Sapporo Beer for me?

[Phantom Blooper]

Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

BUMP!

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[Fox 2/23]

Well Joe, I wish you the best brother. When all is said and done, I will be strongly discouraging my boys from enlisting(they have no interest). I have even considered sending them out of the country if His Majesty attempts to draft them. I have two sons that will be of military age by the time King George leaves office. I don't trust him or his administration. He is a chickenhawk as is the shills that belt out his "talking points". I'm a second generation US Marine myself and proud of it but I have to think I'm a little older, a little wiser and a little more well read than when I stood on the yello footprints as a 17 year old. If there is a war where everyone goes, everyone pitches in and it is plain and obvious to everyone and does not need chickenhawk radio talk show hosts to explain, then my kids will go and fight alongside Bush's nephews or whatever. But not this bullcrap that Bush started and doesn't know how to end and ties the hands of our people and threatens them with courts martial and second guesses their actions in combat. In World War II the elites fought alongside the commoners. If that isn't going to happen anymore then the elites can go fight their own wars and kiss my arse. I didn't raise my kids up to have them carelessly tossed into the fire by a chimp-faced politician. We need to kill cockroaches wherever we find them, I have no problem with that, but I disagree with the occupation of Iraq, it will continue to drain blood and resources until the day the last American leaves. And what about that southern border of ours Mr. President?

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Fox 2/23
Well Joe, I wish you the best brother. When all is said and done, I will be strongly discouraging my boys from enlisting(they have no interest). I have even considered sending them out of the country if His Majesty attempts to draft them. I have two sons that will be of military age by the time King George leaves office. I don't trust him or his administration. He is a chickenhawk as is the shills that belt out his "talking points". I'm a second generation US Marine myself and proud of it but I have to think I'm a little older, a little wiser and a little more well read than when I stood on the yello footprints as a 17 year old. If there is a war where everyone goes, everyone pitches in and it is plain and obvious to everyone and does not need chickenhawk radio talk show hosts to explain, then my kids will go and fight alongside Bush's nephews or whatever. But not this bullcrap that Bush started and doesn't know how to end and ties the hands of our people and threatens them with courts martial and second guesses their actions in combat. In World War II the elites fought alongside the commoners. If that isn't going to happen anymore then the elites can go fight their own wars and kiss my arse. I didn't raise my kids up to have them carelessly tossed into the fire by a chimp-faced politician. We need to kill cockroaches wherever we find them, I have no problem with that, but I disagree with the occupation of Iraq, it will continue to drain blood and resources until the day the last American leaves. And what about that southern border of ours Mr. President?

Being Honest with you kid, you were two years a Marine, 83-85, I did not think that the Marines had two year enlistments in the 80's, the draft ended in the 70's, and they were the only Two year Marines that I knew of, and the Marines that were blown up in Lebonan in the 80's were with the 8th Marines, so it would not be a wound from the explosion there that took you out early from your enlistment. Perhaps, you have ulterior motives for taking the way you do? Perhaps you have an ax to grind against the Marines already? Or, Perhaps you are not whom it is you say you are?

Just asking. It is the old investigator in me that causes me to act suspiciously of things that do not seem to jive or fit properly as they come about.

For the Record, the President is the President, being Irish in my background and lineage, I would have never voted for a King! Speak with respect for the Office of the Presidency, if you have nothing good to say about the President, than speak of the office. Even I called President Carter by his poroper title, President, and I am sure that I could have used some very affectionate words for him as well, but he was the President of the United States, and there have only been few men that have attained that office in our History. It is obvious that you will not be one of them.

[rick taylor]

Did I miss something Fox2/23. I dont think Mr. Bush was flying the planes on 9/11 was he. He is our Pres.& commander in chief. I didnot like Pres. Johnson but went to Nam anyway. It was my job.With this kind of support the sand pit will end like Nam. Semper Fi R.T.

[jegries]

Its about time that we were to focus elsewhere on the war on terrorism like acts against humanity. We liberated them that was our part let them take over. Lately in the news more and more civilians are being hurt and killed on a daily basis rather military members. Its about time to let them take care of thier own bad apples. The general public n Iraq will eventually realize that they are killing thier own people and will no longer take it.

[Phantom Blooper]

Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

BUMP,BUMP,BUMP!
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