It's Time For Rumsfeld To Go
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  1. #1

    Cool It's Time For Rumsfeld To Go

    Joe Galloway: It's Time For Rumsfeld To Go

    WASHINGTON - All that the Bush administration had in Iraq, in the absence of any grand strategy, was a grip on the moral high ground: Whatever else, we were way better than Saddam Hussein, who tortured and murdered the unfortunates who ended up in Abu Ghraib Prison.

    We had the moral high ground until a week ago when news of the prisoner scandal came out.

    The photos are disgusting. Iraqi prisoners hog-tied and heaped one upon the other. An American soldier sitting on top of a prisoner. Prisoners naked and abused. Prisoners, an Army investigation reported, who had broom handles and chemical light sticks shoved up them.

    Six Army Reserve military police — part-time soldiers in a full-time war — face court martial on charges that could send them to Leavenworth military prison for years. Six officers and sergeants who should have had a better grip on the situation in Abu Ghraib Prison outside Baghdad have been given administrative punishment of a severity that will effectively end their military careers.

    All that is well and good and as it should be. But the buck in this case should not stop at the lieutenant or captain level. There were people wearing silver stars on their shoulders who bore responsibility both for the prisoners and for the MPs guarding them. And above the generals there is Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, who until events forced him to couldn't even be bothered to read the Army investigative report, written in February, which detailed the fresh horrors in a place of horror, Abu Ghraib.

    Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on national television shows Sunday that he hadn't read the report, either.

    We are Americans. We are better than this. This is not about training and education and instruction on the finer points of the Geneva Conventions on the proper treatment of prisoners of war, although those things are important. This is about right and wrong. First graders know that. Any policeman who can't figure that out needs some time on the other side of the bars.

    It tars us all, just as Lt. Rusty Calley and Capt. Ernest Medina and their band of My Lai murderers tarred the reputations of everyone who served in Vietnam, and all Americans.

    This takes us down in the eyes of the Middle East and the rest of the world. It is one more disaster in a string of disasters that began with the idea that we would topple Saddam Hussein and the grateful Iraqi people would welcome us with showers of rose petals.

    Heads ought to roll over Iraq in general and Abu Ghraib in particular, but George Bush seems to have an aversion to firing people even when they desperately need it. He didn't fire anyone after Sept. 11 when too many of our watchdogs were asleep at the switch. He didn't fire anyone at the Central Intelligence Agency for getting some very important information wrong in the lead-up to invading Iraq.

    At times it seems that the only thing that can get you fired in Washington is telling the truth. President Bush needs to get out a long broom and do some housecleaning. There's still time for him to go into the election looking tough and decisive and on top of the situation. No better way to send that signal than some creative firings.

    A couple of weeks ago we suggested the dismissal for cause of L. Paul Bremer, head of the civilian reconstruction effort in Iraq, along with Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Deputy Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Peter Pace. This week we raise our sights and suggest that it is past time for Rumsfeld himself to depart.

    He insisted on total personal control of everything to do with planning and carrying out the Iraq invasion and reconstruction. Now that things have become difficult, not to say bloody, the secretary of defense and his crew are bobbing and weaving and dodging and praying for June 30 when they can hand off responsibility to Secretary of State Colin Powell, the man they froze out of virtually every decision made, especially the bad ones.

    As he leaves, Rumsfeld can take with him everyone in his office, especially including Under Secretary of Defense Douglas A. Feith, director of the Office of Special Plans. Myers should go, too.

    We preach accountability to our children, so why should we not demand accountability from those whose decisions and obsessions have sent our soldiers and Marines into harm's way? Get it right or get out. Now there's a slogan a retread corporate czar like Rumsfeld should be able to identify with.

    http://www.military.com/NewContent/0...050604,00.html


    Ellie


  2. #2
    yellowwing
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    I saw President Bush publically apologize, twice in one speach with King Abdullah of Jordan. That's good enough for me. Sacking the SecDef during a conflict is not the way to go.

    This really comes at a bad time. Just when we were closing on holding Syria accountable on their 'foriegn fighters', this monkey wrench buggers it up.


  3. #3
    This prisoner humiliation scandal is not sufficient grounds to fire or ask the Secretary of Defense to step down. There is no comparison between what Donald Rumsfeld has accomplished, and the kow-towing, butt-kissing demeanor of fired Sect. of Defense Les Aspin, in Clinton's administration.

    There, micromanagement of the situation in Somalia caused the infamous Blackhawk Down incident where we lost 18 dead. Refusal to release armor forces to assist the Army Rangers and Delta operatives brought disaster. Aspen was chosen to fall on his sword, and did so to save face for the President.

    This is a different animal. Here, Rumsfeld initiated an investigation. He committed errors, but it showed the chain of command was in operation, once word got to higher echelons.

    Those calling for the Sect. of Defense's resignation are political backers of the opposition candidate. It is to be expected they would do what they could to weaken their opponent, the current President. No one was complaining when Don Rumsfeld was helping on 9/11, to physically save people on site at the Pentagon attack. Does anyone recall that? I do.

    This guy has guts, and so does the man who appointed him to office. We need leaders with guts to bolster our resolve. If we toss him away, then we do disservice to the war effort.

    I don't care if it is Joe Galloway, of "We Were Soldiers...." authorship. He is wrong on this call.


  4. #4
    Marine Free Member mrbsox's Avatar
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    Originally posted by namgrunt

    Those calling for the Sect. of Defense's resignation are political backers of the opposition candidate. It is to be expected they would do what they could to weaken their opponent, the current President. No one was complaining when Don Rumsfeld was helping on 9/11, to physically save people on site at the Pentagon attack. Does anyone recall that? I do.

    I applaud namgrunts ELLOQUENT way of referring to those mudslingingmealymouthFknweaseldiks who will jump on something like this for political gain.

    That's all it is, mudslinging for gain.

    Terry


    Ooops

    Talking politics... SORRY

    1 sir
    2 sir
    3 sir
    4 sir....


  5. #5
    Registered User Free Member Lock-n-Load's Avatar
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    Question Survey Rumsfeld??

    How hear this!!...President G W Bush told the nation...Sec Rumsfeld is to remain as Sec of Defense...I applaud the CIC.


  6. #6
    yellowwing
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    As in any human being, especially one held to such high standards, it is easy to criticize. I must say the GWB has recruited some very fine talent. This Presidential public apology and the head of that BGen has to be sold as enough pound of flesh. The SecDef is apearing before Congress tomorrow. We shall see if cooler heads will prevail.

    On the other hand, if Sec Rumsfeld must go, the new SecDef may be able to take advantage of a 'honeymoon period' to get more done for our lads in Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Philipines, BFE...


  7. #7
    It happened on his watch. If he were the man that he thinks he is, he would resign.

    The "problem" for the SecDef is that the Army issued a report on this in JANUARY - yet, the SecDef was unaware of it and did not notify his commander, the president of the report ot the major f***-up that these actions would cause. The January report DID receive some press, but didn't become the cause celebre' until the pictures showed up all over TV and the papers this week.

    This is NOT an isolated incident. There are now some 30 similar inciodents being investigated - and there will be more than that before this is over. This is a command and culture issue, and it goes all the way to the SecDef's office.

    If he isn't held responsible, just where the hell does the buck stop gentlemen? You wanna bust the senior officers, but arbitrarily draw a line in the chain of command? Where did you learn this theory of command and control?

    Donald Rumsfeld has mis-judged, mis-calculated and bull-****ted his way through this war. He doesn't have a clue - even yet. Good Marines and soldiers (and sailors and coasties and air men) are dying because he can't figure it out.

    You want to make this out to be political? Then explain why prominant Republicans including John mcCain have strongly hinted that Rummy must go.


  8. #8
    I like that. "Rummy". I'll have to write that one down. Work it into my stand-up act.

    As for changing Rumsfeld's (Rummy!! yay-rah!) status and firing him, or demanding his resignation. Talk to GWB about that. He is the President, not ANY of us. He has already made a decision about the matter.

    If the "other guy" gets into office this November, then he can fire Rumsfeld (Rummy!!). I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. You would turn bluer than a Dress Blue Jacket.

    Concerning the suggestion that, should a new Sect. of Defense be named, there would be a "honeymoon period", I don't think that is reality. The opposition to the President and his choices has been ongoing from the time he took his oath of office. I don't expect it to change now, particularly during an election year.

    mrbsox
    You remembered my post. Nice touch.


  9. #9
    Registered User Free Member Kurt Stover's Avatar
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    Maj Mike,
    Sheezz, who ****ed in your wheaties? Why would you even think of attacking SecDef Rumsfeld? I bet you were beating the drum for MacNamara way back then.

    I've read the reports, heard the politico's and think YOU are way out in left field. I have to disk you a "Maggies draws" on that post. John McCain, while having an "R" after his name, is moderate to say the least. McCain lines up more with Clinton (Slick willie)than anybody in the current administration.

    If we use your style or consider using your style (AKA) Clinton, Courtsmartial a Lt for an extra marital affair (B-52 pilot) and then in the same breath say it's okay for clinton to get schlocked in the oval office, because we don't know the deffinition of "Is" or what s3x is...Your a true gem, and dang glad you are not in the suck now. I'd of wondered what planet you came from if in your command.

    Get serious.


  10. #10
    It would be a big mistake to can Rumsfeld!

    It would do nothing positive, and it would just throw a monkey wrench into all that the United States is trying to accomplish. No matter who you replace him with. It would take months for that person to get up to speed.

    It would also send the wrong message to everybody, from the teroristists, to our Euro enemies overseas, and to our troops in the field.

    Can a couple generals, and then go on. This fricking prisoner scandal is being blown way out of proportion. I don't give a damned what happens to those stinking terrorists. Even when they are in our custody.

    Have you all forgotten, that Jessica Lynch was sodomized while still unconscious, and barely alive? Have you forgotten about the other soldiers who were captured with her were alive, and then died because they were so brutalized? Have you forgotten about the four Americans, who were dragged from their cars, and brutalized, then mutilated, while trying to deliver food and medicine to Falujah?

    The problem is the breakdown in discipline. The generals are responsible for that. Not Rumsfeld!!! Leave him the "F" alone!!

    SF


  11. #11
    Registered User Free Member Kurt Stover's Avatar
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    Radio,
    Yeah, it's a lot easier to pick at our own scabs then to remember what has happened and actually put us over there. But, any excuses to sh1tcan a good man like Donald.


  12. #12
    I am inclined to agree with Maj Mike. I am not satisfied that just taking out the lower rungs of this ladder is sufficient and the poor dumb slobs who were foolish enough to take the pics. We have all seen poor responses to crisis in the past, and I am sure we'll see more going forward. But responsibility begins at the top and not just half way up the ladder.

    The problem erutpted on Rummey's watch and he has, in my opinion, failed badly with handling it correctly both to this nation and to the CIC in particular. I am listening to him grovel right now.


  13. #13
    Registered User Free Member Kurt Stover's Avatar
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    Okay, lets play that hand. If that is the case, why didn't clinton resign along with his whole cabinet? Everyone knew.

    Better yet, intelligence reports stated that any refuling operations in the port of Adin was unsafe and there were not enough combat arms person's to help defend the cole. Once again, the whole clinton gang, gone.

    Let's go further back shall we? Carter knew and was told not only by US intel, but ironicly, the MOSSAD, MI6 and the iinterpol from france that the embassies of western nations were at risk of being over run by islamic fundamentalist students in Teheran...saw no one become unemployed there.

    I believe that there is an unnessecary and boondoggled witch hunt on this one. I'm putting up the BS flag on this one. he ain't leaving and that is that. There is not only a knee-jerk reaction going on, but a mean-sprited attack by Moderates and liberals that are ducking for cover.

    Don't kid yourself, I read the J2 reports coming out of the puzzel palace and all, not some but all of the congress -persons that are on the armed committees are privy to information and briefed with the same report the POTUS gets. i'm looking at the 'rcvd" stamp and attendence sign off list and you would be surprised who knew about this and never said anything until pictures appeared.

    I find it incredible that a few moans and groans from uninformed nay-sayers have the ear of a nation. How gullible, how sick. Pure politics and you guy's are falling for it again....shame.


  14. #14
    Registered User Free Member Kurt Stover's Avatar
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    Add on...

    I keep hearing a lot being said in an effort to explain how the Iraqi prisoner abuses could have occurred. What concerns me most are the arguments that these guards were Reservists with no formal training. I take issue with that. I am a Marine Reservist with an Artillery Unit that was deployed in support of the Mortuary Affairs mission for Operation Iraqi Freedom. Thankfully, we did not have a lot of business. As a result, we were used in other capacities, including the guarding of Enemy Prisoners of War. The training that we received in the field was brief but thorough. It was made clear that we were allowed to take actions to protect ourselves while handling the prisoners, but that we were still to abide by the Geneva Convention. Given that we were in a field environment, the prisoners hands were bound, but they were in front of their bodies and free enough to allow them to feed themselves, cover themselves with their blanket, or use the restroom. Under no circumstances, however, were we allowed to take photographs of the prisoners. The only time prisoners had their heads covered with a bag was immediately before or after being transported to or from our location.

    The incident at the Iraqi prison is not due to a lack of training, or familiarity with the mission, or proper oversight by the chain of command. It is due entirely to a lack of common sense. We knew what we were supposed to do and we did it. Regardless of how we felt about the prisoners, we gave them due respect and dignity. The most senior man in our field-expedient prison was a Sgt., who led the men in his charge impeccably, though it was largely unnecessary as each man knew what behavior was acceptable and acted accordingly.

    I've been a fraternity pledge, and later a brother. What I have seen is typical of that type of relationship, and has no place in our handling of prisoners. That said, it would be ludicrous to call for the resignation of a university president or administrator as a result of some frat brothers getting out of hand.


  15. #15
    Kurt:

    No arguement for me regards Clinton--he should have resigned--not sure what the ref to the balance of the cabinet means. As for Carter--you've either got a great memory or recently read some history of the time. Either way Carter was exited by way of an election. I fail to to see also how it is relevent support an arguement for Rommy hanging on by suggesting that transgessions from past adminstrations that also failed certain moral responsibilites is a sufficient reason to say OK with this particular failure today.


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