It's Time For Rumsfeld To Go - Page 2
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  1. #16
    Registered User Free Member Kurt Stover's Avatar
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    Read the second post of "Add on"


  2. #17
    Marine Free Member mrbsox's Avatar
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    GySgt. Stover,

    In light of recent posts, I think you were out of line to admonish Maj Mike in the tone you did.

    We are all Marines, with opinions, and it is his God given right to be dead Fkn wrong.

    Maj Mike,
    USMC-FO,

    I got busted for doing a doobie, and Carter was President. "IT WAS ON HIS WATCH". Should he have suffered the consequences, or been handled IN the chain of command, as it was. (hence the E3 avatar)

    Yes, different situation but same Chain of Command structure. Was there any reason for MY actions to be known to the CG of 2nd MarDiv ?? Why should MR. Rumsfield know about what was already being investigated ??

    No one has noted that investigations have been on going for quite sometime, finding incidents all the way back into Afganistan. Soldiers have already been punished BEFORE this came to the media.

    Is it a black mark on the U.S., no doubt.
    Gonna cause problems, no doubt.
    From a lack of training, no. A lack of DISCILPINE.
    A lack of SUPERVISION.

    Which makes me wonder if 'weekend warriors' should be allowed to run without regular Army supervision.

    Just another case where MARINE TRAINING and DISCLIPINE rise to the top. Gy. Stover's unit had no problems, with only a Sgt in charge.

    $.02 paid.

    Terry


  3. #18
    Gunny Stover:

    This is NOT a Clinton vs. Bush thing. (It seems that everything on this board turns into that - and I'm amazed that the same folks who spout the BUSH CIC "can do no wrong" BS are the same ones who dissed Clinton when he was CIC - but that's another story. Obviously, respect for CIC is now a personal choice based on who happens to be CIC?).

    This is simply a command and control issue. The SecDef is the ultimate person responsible for what happens under him. If its FUBAR, well. it happened on his watch. He was not excercising the proper command and control. It's that simple. You're gonna bust a reserve BGen who was commander of the prision, but not take it up the chain of command? That's horse****.

    What happened to HONOR? Rummy admitted before Congress today that he was ultimately responsible. Yet, he won't take the fall? There is no HONOR in that. He'll throw the BGen and a bunch of jr. officers and enlisted types under an amtrak, but we walks away with no s*** clinging to him? BS!

    Above all, we, as Marines, should know what honor is.

    Take the politics out of it.

    1) His people f***ed up.
    2) He did not exercise proper command and control over his people.
    3) He will court martial a bunch of folks - especially the prison officers - for not exercising proper command and control, and then say - "that's the rule - BUT, it doesn't apply to me."
    4) And, when the s*** started to hit the fan 4 months ago, he did not notify his commander.

    I have no respect for a man that says he is responsible yet does not accept the consequences for something that happens under that umbrella of responsibility.


  4. #19
    Ok, let me first say that I've been out of the loop on the news lately. However, if we extend MajMike's arguement, doesn't the SecDef report to the CIC? And therefore isn't Bush also responsible for what happens on his watch? Sorry, while I may not agree that Bush is the perfect President, I cannot follow adding Bush to being responsible for this. And unless the SecDef was aware of the abuse prior to it hitting the newswire and did not handle that appropriately, then hang him! If he was not aware or if he was taking appropriate action, then leave him alone.


  5. #20
    LCPL mrbsox.

    You are confused. Yeah, you got BUSTED for smoking a doobie. That's evidence that the command and control structure worked. The CG issues and order that says anyone smoking a doobie gets busted. You smoked a doobie. You got busted. The system worked.

    Had you + your squad + your company + your BN + your regiment + your division, etc., ALL been smoking doobies and were so stoned out of your head that it caused a major public relations gaffe in the middle of a war, violated several conditions of the Geneva Convention, violated the UCMJ and got a bunch of people up on charges, then THAT is an example of how command and control did not react to the doobie smoking situation.

    Command and control broke down when the ranking NCO did not stop the army Spc. from performing the (photographed) acts to the Iraqi prisoners; the staff NCO did not stop the NCO; the jr. officer did not stop the staff NCO; the field grade officer did not stop the jr. officer; etc.

    This was NOT one single incident. We are now aware of more than 30 such incidents. The behavior was widespread, rampant, and obviously accepted. A classic example of the breakdown of command and control.

    We have rules - Rules of Engagement, Geneva Convention rules, general orders, MCO, SOP, UCMJ, etc. etc. - all govern how we comport ourselves while wearing the uniform. The chain of command - from the SecDef on down is responible for making sure that every pvt, PFC, LCpl, Cpl, Sgt. LT, MAJ, BGen, etc. understands and carries out those orders. He is responsible for having systems in place to make sure that they are carried out.

    That's how we run the military.

    Rumsfeld didn't.


  6. #21
    Sgt. Jryanjack:

    It's the SecDef's job to be aware. He wasn't.


  7. #22
    Registered User Free Member mardet65's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Kurt Stover
    [B]Add on...

    The incident at the Iraqi prison is not due to a lack of training, or familiarity with the mission, or proper oversight by the chain of command. It is due entirely to a lack of common sense.


    I've got to agree with the above. How is Rumsfelt or a lack of training to blame? How much training does it take for someone to realize that walking a prisoner (any prisoner) around naked except for a dog collar and leash might be inappropriate? Hang the ones involved and hang um' high...I don't want to hear anything about "poor slobs who took the pictures".


  8. #23
    "WASHINGTON Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Friday extended 'my deepest apology' to Iraqis brutally abused in U.S. military prisons and said he favors compensating them for their suffering.

    'These events occurred on my watch. As Secretary of Defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility,' Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee."

    What the F*** does "accountable" mean, Mr. Secretary?

    Do you have a special set of rules for only you?


  9. #24
    "Be on notice," he (Rumsfeld) warned the committee neared the end of an appearance that lasted more than two hours.

    "There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist," he said. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

    Thus far, no videos of abusive treatment have reached the public. The still photographs, though, have spawned a worldwide wave of revulsion that has damaged America's image overseas and sparked a political storm at home.

    ------------

    My last word on this topic.


    The practice was systemic (meaning it was more than one isolated incident). TOTAL loss of command and control.


  10. #25

    MAJMike

    Originally posted by MAJMike
    Gunny Stover:

    What happened to HONOR? Rummy admitted before Congress today that he was ultimately responsible. Yet, he won't take the fall? There is no HONOR in that. He'll throw the BGen and a bunch of jr. officers and enlisted types under an amtrak, but we walks away with no s*** clinging to him? BS!




    "I have no respect for a man that says he is responsible yet does not accept the consequences for something that happens under that umbrella of responsibility."



    Are you saying that during your watch as an officer, a Marine under your "umbrella of responsibility" never did anything that reflected bad upon the unit and if they did, are you saying you would have resigned?


    Just wondering where the bucks stops?


    This is nothing but a political event, that's all.

    They don't want Rumsfeld. Holding him responsible doesn't hold water. They are throwing Rumsfeld up in the air, only to get at Bush in November.


  11. #26
    Registered User Free Member enviro's Avatar
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    As I see it, the DoD and the DoA did what was necessary. They received reports of abuse, opened an investigation, relieved people of their command, court-martialed some, and plan on doing a lot more.

    Now where in the hell is the SecDef responsible for the actions of a few? I can't believe this is even being suggested - by a military person no less! If I was forced to quit after everytime one of my Marines pulled some stupid sh|t, I'd lasted 30 days. Those that did the deed will be punished. Those directly in charge will be punished. Those that are on the other side of the world giving orders (that weren't followed) should not be punished, they should be the ones doing the punishing. That's the way it works. You have to answer to somebody.

    The democrats have been calling for Rumsfeld's resignation since day one. This is pure partisan. The liberals don't give a crap about what happened, they only care about how they can capitalize on it.

    It's the SecDef's job to be aware? He was. The whole world knew about it. CentCom released the story 2 months ago. Just because the world has seen the pictures now, doesn't change a thing.


    You look at yourself honestly and tell me it wouldn't have happened on your watch if you were the SecDef. And if it did, you would step down? I doubt it.


  12. #27
    Marine Free Member mrbsox's Avatar
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    Sparrowhawk said;

    Just wondering where the bucks stops?

    That's part of my point, Major, et al...

    I got caught by the Staff DNCO, he reported it to the OD, he reported it to the CO, the Company CO reported it to the BN CO... the chain worked.

    The BN CO saw fit to handle it at BN level, stripe, fine, extra duty.
    Period, end of chain of command. SHOULD HE have burned for NOT sending it to Regimental, to Division.

    I'm sorry Major, but your arugrument, in MY OPINION, undermines part of what makes the American Military what it is. The TRUST AND CONFIDENCE of Officers to make approporiate decisions, without having to 'ask permission' or say 'Hey Col, I've got a Lance coolie here that Fkd up. What do you want me to do with him ??

    The buck stops at the level that seems appropriate. If it stopped too soon, THEN we can pass judgement on the decision.

    And I wont dive into the potential (and wise) attempt to keep the investigations INTERNAL, for National security sake.


  13. #28
    If being responsible for all actions by subordinates is "command and control", as you say, MajMike. Then when may we see how you handled such incidents which might have occurred during your watch? Are you saying you NEVER let anything get past you? Are you saying you NEVER cut someone any slack, even if it was a fellow officer?

    You talk loudly of responsibility. Is it responsible to to burden a commander with any and all infractions that occur without fully investigating them? That seems to be what you are suggesting. Original notification was made January 16th of this year. Follow up notification was made in March. You don't dump the facts on the media before you chase down your leads, and reach conclusions. You notify higher echelon when you have a case, not when you have suspicions, or rumors, or innuendos. I would expect that of someone in higher command.

    I lost my E4 stripe for being late for a daily MP Guardmount inspection. I earned that stripe in combat, and it was taken by some Garrison S.O.B., who didn't like my being late to have my creases inspected. I didn't like it, but I took my demotion and carried on. I eventually earned it back, and more to boot. Do you think then Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara should have resigned because I was late and lost a stripe?

    I expect more than that from an officer. I am disappointed.


  14. #29
    Whiskey Tango Hotel over? This is insane. Every time anything, read anything happens in Iraq, the left starts screaming for heads. I generally pass on pointed comments, but Maj. Mike is out there. I really question whether anyone will fess up and sack the Army upper echelons. They have exhibited the TOTAL lack of leadership we have come to expect from the Doggies. Yet, it is always the liberals hollaring for this one to resign, or that one to go. Save the speeches on this administrations screw-ups and the lauding of Kerry. You want to re-direct the attention from the last administrations foul-ups because they SET US UP FOR THIS CRAP! Iraq should have been dealt with in Desert Fox. No balls Clinton and his henchmen were busy firing a missle or two and lying to us. This President has stepped up and he will remain in office. And with that happening, then the left can keep sniping at him, as they have above. Like it or not, I was there last year, and I still believe in him. All of the crying, whining, bit****g, and sniping has been from mostly Army pukes and Dems.


  15. #30
    Oh, and hey, if they want to start that "the buck stops here crap" let me say this for the record: "I never had sexual relations with that lady! (finger pointed at the American people)". The buck stopped there with Billy, and the left forgets that. He should have manned up and fell on his sword. If you point the finger, look at the other three pointed back at yourself.


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