Women in the infantry

[oldtop]

given the "slack" that WM's currently get just on the PFT tells me that they will NOT be able to keep up when it comes to completing the tasks that grunts take for granted on a daily basis.... a platoon or even a fire team cannot continue to be an effective fighting force when it is constantly slowed down by a "weak sister" (male of female, makes no difference).."non-hackers are simply not realistic in the infantry... there ARE combat MOSes that women can fill admirably, but being a successful GRUNT is NOT one of them....

[Tennessee Top]

Bootcamp is not totally integrated yet (4th Battalion is separated from the male battalions at PI) but there is constant pressure from Congress to fully integrate bootcamp (like all the other services). Some CMC will give into the pressure so it'll happen at some point I'm sure. They do send a few female DI's to MCRD San Diego so the male recruits there can get some early exposure to females in leadership roles.There are female PMI's and shooting coaches at all the ranges.Females have been serving on embassy duty for a few years now (watchstander and detachment commander). When I came off the program in 1990 they weren't out there yet.The first female machine gunner graduated from ITB last year so she is somewhere in the fleet now.First female tanker just graduated recently from the Army's armor school. She'll be assigned to a tank crew.Two female officers graduated from the Army's Field Artillery school at Fort Sill, OK earlier this summer. One of them graduated at the top of the class (her father was an artillery officer in the Army). They should both be in artillery batteries now.A female Sgt is in her second phase of screening to be a Marine Raider with MARSOC (Special Operator). This is her second attempt, she didn't make it through the first phase of screening first time.We do have our first female infantry officer now. She completed every evolution of training at IOC alongside her male counterparts (at least 50% of them failed the course). She should be an infantry platoon commander in the fleet now.

[Maddie Barnes]

Thank you all for your replies. I do agree that the majority of women could not make it as a grunt. However I firmly believe that there are some who can. Women are just starting to be able to be in the infantry and they will struggle but everyone struggles when they first get into the infantry (I am assuming this but I feel it's a safe assumption). I do strongly believe that given a fair opportunity there are many women out there who will excel in infantry positions and I believe that they should be given the same opportunity as men to prove themselves. If they can't do the same things men have to do then they should not be able to slide in because their female. Gender has no place in military in my opinion. Male or female doesn't matter, what matters is who can do the job. So no one should get special treatment for any reason but ANYONE who can do what has to be done should not be stopped because they happen to be a girl. I personally can't understand why those of you who say it shouldn't be open to women think that. I have read through what you said and it seems like you all agree that they can't do it. Well the way I see it, it has not been long enough to be able to say that no women can do the job. Hell, facts can't be based off of a few people when relating to the whole and very few women are currently in the infantry. So I don't understand how you can say that no women can do the job when hardly any women have even attempted it yet. Yes, men and women are built differently but, that doesn't mean that we can't do the same things if we work harder. If they pick up the slack and get themselves where they need to be, then they are now as good as every other new grunt, who cares how hard they had to work to get there as long as they are where they need to be when they need to be there. I will work my azz off for these next few years then I will go to PI, become a Marine and join the infantry. I will thoroughly believe that I will excel at it and I believe that women as a whole will prove you wrong if given a chance to. You are allowed your own opinion, however as of now I see no proof saying you all are correct in assuming that women can't handle the infantry. All I see is bias and that's okay, I'm biased about a lot of stuff and it's your opinion so once again, your allowed to have it. I would just like to see the proof and I believe you all should have proof before dismissing an idea that could be beneficial to the Corps if given a proper chance.

[USMC 2571]

Maddie, I like your attitude, your motivation, it is really refreshing to see someone that motivated----but have you seen the Farmers Insurance commercial where he says "We know a thing or two because we've SEEN a thing or two"? That is where some of these folks are coming from. Not me, because I was not in the infantry. But some of these Marines were, and know about it. But I think you contribute a lot to this site by asking the questions you ask. They are good questions. Controversial questions are still nevertheless questions, and should be welcomed. Keep your attitude and motivation the way it is now and you will undoubtedly earn the title of United States Marine.

[Maddie Barnes]

Thanks Dave! I understand what you mean about how experience puts it into a different perspective but, I have a hard time believing they have seen females out in live combat situations due to how few there are. If they have then that changes things a bit, at that point they have proof. I just never saw them say anything a long those lines. It is possible that women will not work out in the infantry and at that point I will admit that I was wrong, as of now though I see it as only a small possibility. I will always respect the opinions of everyone (though I may not always say it) but I do hold opinions with more weight if they have proof behind it. I do truly hope that one day about 3-ish years from now that I can come back to this site and start a new thread to tell you all that I have finally become a Marine and thank you all once again for all your help.

[chulaivet1966]

given the "slack" that WM's currently get just on the PFT tells me that they will NOT be able to keep up when it comes to completing the tasks that grunts take for granted on a daily basis.... a platoon or even a fire team cannot continue to be an effective fighting force when it is constantly slowed down by a "weak sister" (male of female, makes no difference).."non-hackers are simply not realistic in the infantry... there ARE combat MOSes that women can fill admirably, but being a successful GRUNT is NOT one of them....

That's pretty much the way I see it.

I could quite candidly express another crucial consideration regarding the male/female dynamic of this woefully imprudent decision but obviously this is not an 'adult' forum only.
So, I wouldn't....because I'd be accused of bullying or being too candid in a post by a 15 year old girl who's paths of interest for her future could change a dozen times.

If I may quote crazymjb "sprinking' a few women into this role just because is myopic, unwise and the consequences/ramifications of caving to this PC pressure for the military to implement it is yet to be revealed.

Advocates for this change can believe and endorse what they want.
I don't respect that position but I do have to respect one's right to have that position.

No offense to the OP or any other contributor.
That's a wrap from my perspective.....byebye

Carry on....

[crazymjb]

There are problems with the male/female dynamic no doubt -- but that can be taken care of by good leadership. There have been plenty of women in direct combat roles among mainly men the last decade, and any issues were due to lack of strong leadership or individual personnel who lacked the maturity to be Marines.

Also, it's complete bull**** to say that a woman can't be a successful grunt. You can argue they should or shouldn't have that opportunity for various reasons, but since the door is opened, there is nothing to demonstrate women are incapable as individuals of being excellent infantrymen, errr, infantrypeople.

OldTop, I don't know that you are qualified to comment on the slack WMs are currently given. Women serving in the infantry (again, however unwise you or I believe the decision to allow that to happen to be) are required to meet the same standards as males as well as other universal standards required of all infantrymen. I agree, seperate PFTs is crap, but my understanding is in combat arms must meet male minimums for PFTs.

Mike

[Maddie Barnes]

Chulaivet, I would like to point out that you will be hard pressed to find a time in my life where I cry bully and you will definitely not find a time like that because someone said something online in a forum that managed to upset me. I may not be an adult but I can handle someones unedited opinion about who should and shouldn't be able to be in the infantry.
Mike, I do 100% agree that men and women should have the same PFT (and every other test) requirements. By setting lower standards for women it doesn't prepare them and thereby makes it harder for women to do as well as men who do the same things.

[Hammer]

Personally; I have heard and read enough of this particular thread. There is nothing new being discussed, and hasn't been for a while. Therefore; I am asking that this particular thread be closed.

[Mongoose]

I have read every post on this thread. I believe every aspect of the issue at hand, has been covered, more than a few times. When we get to the point of saying "you aren't qualified to comment"....I have to ask....who is qualified. All any of us are doing is speculating and voicing our own personal opinion. I respect all Marines opinions, on any subject, at any time. Once again......every nook and corner, and all in between, has been covered. It is sounding like a continuance recording of the same old dialog. I am closing this thread.....it has run it's useful purpose. If Maddie has any other subjects she is at odds with....she can start another thread.