An Armed Force That Has More PC Types Than Warriors

[thedrifter]

An Armed Force That Has More PC Types Than Warriors



We had two people in the same jobfield in my squadron. One was a man, who was an E6 with less than ten years (this is no easy task). The other was a woman who was an E6 with about eighteen years.

Making E7(chief) in the Navy is no simple task. Both of these people were up for it at the same time. The man was absolutely outstanding at what he did. His appearance was always spotless, he knew his job inside out, and would always help out anyone who needed it. His evals and test scores reflected this. The woman was practically useless, always looked terrible, would help out no one, and had a job that didn't require hardly any skill and kept her away from everyone(she was a problem to get along with). When the test results came out, SHE was the one who made it, with lower test and evals than the man. She was also over body fat and failed her physical readiness tests, which at that time would keep you from getting promoted. She got promoted anyway, and on the next cycle, the guy I discussed above did make E7. There are only a certain number of people who can make any given rank in any jobfield, so it's not like you can promote more than you need.

I was in the Airframe shop, and in this shop we had a supervisor who had almost no knowledge of anything whatsoever, except who's butt he should be kissing. He couldn't make E6, so our command capped him to E6 (made him one anyway because he couldn't do it on his own). Our shop members were horrified of this because we knew that there were many people who were better and more deserving than him. He later did make E7 after I got out, but never would have had he not been capped to E6, and still did not make E7 on his leadership or technical knowledge. He made it because he was putting his nose in the right place, and always telling the leadership waht they wanted to hear.

We had a woman in my shop, who found out that she didn't like being a mechanic very much, which was her chosen jobfield. She got a job doing paperwork, and very rarely touched the plane. In today's military, you need all the manpower you can get because you don't have what you need in the first place. So losing an able bodied mechanic because she doesn't like getting dirty is a big deal, as it puts more weight on the rest of us. From what I saw, her case was the rule and not the exception, as every shop had a woman, and they all did paperwork, and didn't do anything mechanical, or if they did, it was very,very rare.

Now let's talk about pregnancy. The minute a woman is found to be pregnant, they are immediately placed in a job that has no contact with chemicals of any kind.

So working on jets is out, as you can't even fuel one. After so long a woman is only allowed to work half days. Yes, you read that right. They still get full pay.

And if a cruise or deployment is coming up, they're automatically ineligible.

I had a Chief get a hit and run DUI, and was only forced to retire without punishment. We had a case of another guy(E5), who was also a pretty boy butt kisser. He had gotten his SECOND DUI right as I got to the squadron, and got no punishment. He got out of it because he was another guy who was always saying the right thing to the right person, and didn't have much technical knowledge. He later got his third DUI(DUI is one of the worst things you can do in the military today), and they finally did kick him out.

I saw a lot of things when I was in, and I'm glad I did it. I made better friends that I've ever had in my life, and still have these friends. However, examples such as the ones I've given above are extremely disheartening to the people who are very good workers and do the right thing, even if it's not what the leadership wants to hear. Out of all the people I worked with, most of the ones who were the good workers got out. It didn't really matter how many years they had, I saw one guy with fifteen years say he'd had enough and refuse to reenlist. The sad part is, what you're left with is not anywhere near the quality of the ones that quit due to the fact that they didn't like what they were seeing. I saw people who were really good at what they did get promoted, also. But sadly, they were the exception and not the rule.


http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/c....4742716338139


Sempers,

Roger

[firstsgtmike]

Sometimes, it's the Peter Principle.

Somtimes, it's Murphy's Law.

Sometimes, ("our command capped him to E6") the story being told has obvious flaws. (i.e. No Command has the authority to "award" a promotion to E-6).

Let's take that paragraph; "I was in the Airframe shop ....... supervisor ...always telling the leadership what they wanted to hear." Oh? What did they want to hear that was not supported by results?


Sometimes, ("got a job doing paperwork") a team-member's weight is carried by performing necessary support functions.

Pregnancy. The point made is accepted without comment.

DUI. Sometimes, forced retirement IS a punishment. As for the other "guy, (E-5)", what point was the griper trying to make?

The main point of the article is that the Navy, ( "the good workers got out... what you're left with is not anywhere near the quality of the ones that quit." ) is less than it was because he chose not to (or was not allowed to) reenlist.

Unfortunately, since the super-hero chose not to reveal his name, we cannot give him the credit he seeks, i.e. being the last of the "good guys" in the navy, after which the navy went to hell.

P.S. This analysis is not done in support of the navy, because a squid is still the lowest form of Marine life. (Corpsmen and med-evac chopper pilots excepted.)

[VMGRMech]

I'm sure I'll get jumped by some PC bozo for this, but in my experience women assigned to maintenace work center are terrible mechanics, with one or two exceptions. Other than than that this clown is full of ****. I'm more than certian he is not the super sailor he thinks he is.

BTW did you see that the source of the article is a web sight founded by Col. David "Hey look at me I'm on MSNBC running my suck please buy my book, if I was in charge we'd have caught Osama and Saddam in 48 hours, don't I look cool in my black turtle neck, I drove the CNO to suicide over a friggin NAM" Hackworth.

I hate that dude

[RichLundeen]

In 7.5 years active duty, that was EXACTLY my experience as well, VMGR Mech!

I don't care how you finished in A school, almost every female that actually MADE it to the fleet perfomed a job other than their mechanical MOS. At least that's what I saw as a Winger. Only ONE WM in the Hyd shop was worth a damn, and actually very good at her job. She would actually be on the line for nearly every launch as well.

Absolutley the 'exception' to the rule, this lady was.

"I'm sure I'll get jumped by some PC bozo for this..........."

Jump away! The truth is what it is.

And yes, it sounds like the disgruntled Sailor is venting.

[MAJMike]

If women are so worthless in mechanical fields as many of the posters above seem to think, then explain to me how we managed to develop such massive air superiority with aircraft that were by and large built by women during WWII?

There is a big difference between "PC" and having negative attitudes towards women.

If you were on active duty and exhibited this mind set, you would be a candidate for sensitivity training.

[RichLundeen]

With all due respect, Sir.

My experience was a matter of observation over 7.5 years. Not discrimination, or lack of sensitivity. I grew up with four older sisters, including my twin. I know what women are capable of.

The difference I would offer would be, the women in the civilian sector HAD to perform, in order to get paid, and keep their job. This is not necessarily the case in the military, as you know better than I.

Aptitude does not always correlate to ability. And it would seem, in most cases that I saw, WMs arriving to the Squadrons I was with, simply didn’t stay in their MOSs. I could care less that they are women, as they are Marines first and foremost.

The problem I had with the situation was that, outside of occasional ‘collateral duty’, or ‘B’ billeting, you should be performing your job description outlined by your MOS, time in service, time in grade, etc.

I did not see this to be the case, pure and simple, where WM’s were concerned.

That is not to say, this is the case fleet wide. Like I said, just my observation. Maybe isolated to the aviation community, I don’t know, IMHO.

Semper Fi

Rich

[greybeard]

With all due respect Sir, Apples to oranges.
IMO,which admittedly is worth little, there is a big difference in building something in a stateside plant, from prints and taking care of it in the field. Granted, quality control and dedication must be there, and Rosie the Riveter did an outstanding job, but it just isn't the same. The maint manual/natops manual hasn't been written yet, that can cover all the problems that crop up unexpectedly. It takes a certain mindset to get it right. "I ain't gonna let no machine whip me!!" Now, I'm not saying women can't do it, as I got out long before they started doing it. I'm just saying there is a big difference in building one and keeping one flying. Succeeding at one doesn't neccessarily equate success at the other. How many times have I seen a new car come up with problems and get sent back to the dealership for a fix, and not even the factory reps be able to figure it out? A bunch. It always falls to some field mechanic to keep plugin away at it till he figures it out. Building something doesn't mean you can fix it as well.

And what in God's name is sensitivty training??????

[firstsgtmike]

greybeard,

In a word, "sensitivity training" is a program designed to teach "political correctness".

Upon completion, you will no longer refer to someone as a "dumb ****" but rather an "intellectually disadvantaged piece of excretement".

You'd be amazed at what it can do for your vocabulary.

A "short-timer" becomes an "altitude deficient chronometer", an SOB becomes "the male offspring of a female canine", etc. etc.

It doesn't change opinions, it just confuses the hell out of the object of your invective.

You would no longer call someone a "bastard". You would concede that his parents were married, but not to each other.

Interestingly enough, you would get a chuckle out of the dictionaries the new P.C. requires.

If you looked under "differently partnered parents" you would see the definition "bastard".


But you really have to look at things from HIS point of view.

That's sensitivity training.

[greybeard]

Awww Crap!! Somebody shoot me please.

[MAJMike]

First Sergeant...

Well said, you should consider a career in politics.

CPL Lundeen, have you ever observed any men who were not totally proficient in their MOS? Any men in your shop that were less than proficient?

I'm wondering about your point of view.

[RichLundeen]

I Pm'd the top part of this to you, Greybeard. And then I thought I had better just go ahead and say what was on my mind, after all.

I think, IMHO, 'sensitivity training' is often a tool for someone that is to weak or unwilling to just plain say 'I don't agree with you' on a given topic. At least in the military. I do understand the liability issues in the civvy sector. I don't like it, but I understand.

Is there actually 'sensitivity training in the Marine Corps now?

I would say, in large part, the issue that I saw was head count. When a Marine reports to their MOS in squadron, there are only so many alloted to the MOS. In some cases, not enough ARE alloted. I understand that's the way it's always been.

But what about division chiefs and NCOICs? Trying to accomplish the mission, fly the hours, and look out for their troops? The Marine that holds that MOS designation, and has reported to their respective unit, IS SUPPOSED to be functioning in their respective shop!

Again, regardless of gender.

Again, my personal experience. We transitioned from the F-4 to the F-18, in VMFA-115, out of Beaufort, SC, 1984 - '85. Best damn Fighter Attack Squadron in HISTORY! But, I digress. Powerplants and Flightline were two seperate shops, with a 40 headcount each. Phantom headcount. So, when the shops consolidated into Powerline, we initially had around 80 or so Marines. At this time, we had 7 WM's assigned to PP or FL. FOUR of these Marines were in different areas of the unit. One expiditer. One barracks NCO. One in the tool room. One on base beautification. While all but one of these Marines transitioned back to the shop, they were sent to these 'collateral duties' for a reason. They passed ADJ school, but couldn't wrench. Period. Simple as that. And it wasn't noticed too much; we had way more Mechs and Plane Captains than were needed at the time.

As Marines that hadn't had '18 school transitioned out of 115 for school or reassignment, and the shop head count 'slimmed down', it became VERY noticable. Especially during 800 flight hour months, and three crews. Sometimes we were physically down 10 heads, and when there are people FAP'd out, or somewhere else, and those Marines are female, well, I think we all know where this is going.

Marines working overlapping shifts, while being completely aware the FAP'd Marine's are getting hot chow instead of box lunches, getting to actually GO to the gym, work normal hours, etc. Our initial 'transition birds' were old, nasty Navy birds, with maint logs as thick as a frickin' tree. We got 14 of 'em, to forfill a 12 bird flight schedule. And, we needed every one of 'em, as at LEAST two of 'em were 'hanger queens' at all times. We couldn't cannibalize these AC's fast enough! We didn't get the last one out of the barn until about two months after getting our new birds from St Louis. Yup, right about the time we were getting our old ones squared away, of course.

Again, I know this is 'par'. But it doesn't make it right. Ask the Career Planners and SgtMaj's in units that have these issues.

So, to make a long story longer. I continued to see this occour, for the rest of my 'extended' enlistment. I was told I 'wasn't going anywhere', just prior to the first Gulf War. Hence, my extra 1.5 years I served beyond my contract. My pleasure, completely.

Again, as to your statement, Sir, it would seem that I'm not alone in this experience.




Semper Fi

Rich

[greybeard]

As Marines that hadn't had '18 school transitioned out of 115 for school or reassignment, and the shop head count 'slimmed down', it became VERY noticable. Especially during 800 flight hour months, and three crews. Sometimes we were physically down 10 heads, and when there are people FAP'd out, or somewhere else, and those Marines are female, well, I think we all know where this is going.

Guess that's another term I'm not familar with. Or maybe I just forgot it somewhere along the 30+ yrs since I've been on a flightline.......

[kentmitchell]

I was infantry for four years--cold, wet, hungry, tired (no sleep) in the field and dealing with chicken byproduct in garrison at times.
Never saw a sh*tbird get promoted, only dreamed of seeing a woman. We were horny, frustrated, homesick, lonely, rough, tough, meaner than hell and the best fighters in the world.
PC meant plain chocolate, not that other crap that I have to deal with at my job these days.
An easy way to avoid PC is on the pointy end of the spear in a MEU. Plus you might get to kick some ass.

[RichLundeen]

Yes Sir, I absolutely did observe male Marines perform poorly, or not at all, in their MOS. But not at nearly as comparable a ratio, Sir. I'll own up to my share of trouble as well, Sir.

Let me just say, Sir, my 'total promotions' add up to E-7. I guess the math is obvious. I was a LCPL out of boot camp. Maybe a little too much, too soon. Four of my promotion warrants were 'meritorious'. It's only because I worked VERY hard, and had very good Marines that knew that, that I was kept around at all. I used to like to drink too much. Occasionally fight. The Marine Corps is bigger than me, and it took me getting busted to Private in my first year in to realize that.

So, I worked hard, remembered what got me LCPL in the FIRST place. And, with the help of my Brother AND Sister Marines, I pulled my head out. So, I wasn't a candidate for any Officer programs anymore. So I wasn't 'the future of the Marine Corps' as I was being told prior to my stupidity. I was still a Marine, and damn it, I'm damn good at it too!

As a result of my work, within my MOS, I was kept around. I'm proud of my Honorable Discharge. I almost stayed in.

I still go to my Squadron reunions. Most of my friends are former, retired, close to retirement, or WO's or LDO's who keep on going!
Yes, a few are WMs. My old NCOIC is now the Maint Chief for my favorite, old Squadron, VMFA-115. Top Nate Monroe. Over the course of a week of activities in June last year, we discussed MANY issues. Most involving the Marine Corps Aviation.

Hey, we had a lot of beer to drink, between golf tourneys, flying the sim, etc.!

Had dinner at this time as well, with my former Skipper and his lovely wife, Ret. Lt. Col and Mrs. Lee Logan. We didn't discuss a lick about the Marine Corps really. Pretty much just motorcycle racing! We stay in contact via e-mail.

My family and I stayed, of course, with my Brother, CWO3 Jim Eberhart. Currently with VMFA-312, aboard the Enterprise. E-mail daily with Jimmy.

The guy I grew up with, and went in the Marine Corps with, is now LDO Capt. Steve Fredeen. We talk almost every day, via e-mail and telephone.

The reason I reference these guys (except for the Skipper, I suppose I may never feel comfortable 'talking shop' with him) is that this particular issue is not only real and current, but it has gotten worse.

Jim identifies these issues, in addition to a few others that that surface on an aircraft carrier. Nate, well, I think you get the idea, Sir. Steve, who just got back from Afghanistan 1.5 months ago, took leave to come visit me in Colorado a month ago.

I don't ask questions like' what's the deal with the WM's?' The topic surfaces, as it's an issue. No different than a 'gripe' on an AC. It's there, it's a problem. And until it's fixed, it REMAINS a problem, Sir.

I've NEVER had a problem with women in the military. Like bailing hay, if you can do it, jump on in! It's not gonna bale itself.

Semper Fi

Rich

[firstsgtmike]

"chicken byproduct".

Now THERE'S a P.C. term I hadn't heard before.

But then again, I retired prior to sensitivity training becoming part of a Marine's continuing education program.

We had to settle for something similar to the Watch Commander's muster on Hill Street Blues.

I have difficulty contemplating the necessity of "requesting the attendance of an individual who prefers sex in the female-superior position to accompany me into my government-provided functional environmental location for a donkey mastication".

Have we become part of the air farce?