High court examines lying about military exploits

[acg8276]

WASHINGTON—Xavier Alvarez was in good company when he stood up at a public meeting and called himself a wounded war veteran who had received the top military award, the Medal of Honor.

Alvarez was lying about his medal, his wounds and his military service, but he wasn't the first man to invent war exploits.
He was, however, one of the first people prosecuted under a 2006 federal law aimed at curbing false claims of military valor.
Concerns that the law improperly limits speech and turns people into criminals for things they say, rather than do, are at the heart of the Supreme Court's review of his case and the Stolen Valor Act.
Veterans groups have come to the aid of the Obama administration, which calls the law a narrowly crafted effort to protect the system of military awards that was established during the Revolutionary war by Gen. George Washington. The high court will hear the case Wednesday, which is Washington's 280th birthday. "They're committing fraud. They're impersonating somebody else. They take on attributes of somebody else, attributes of a hero who served honorably," said Pam Sterner, whose college term paper calling for the law wound up in the hands of members of Congress. "When you do that, impersonating someone else, that's fraud, not freedom of speech."

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_20003513

[fl1946]

Call me stupid, call me dumb...but I can't seem to accept the rationale that wearing/displaying unearned military awards and decorations, and claiming a "Seal carried your shot-up torso" 3 clicks over to Laos is a Second Amendment right to lie. There are a lot of wanna be's and impostors out there.

[FistFu68]

Just a quick question b-4 I open up a Cold Brewtoniumn.My former Wifes Ex Hubby Who QUIT(WHIMPED OUT) ROTC-NAVY,Well when Patties PaPa died and Was being Buried at Arlington,He showed up wearing an ROTC-Navy Dress Uniform.He said He got Permission too do so.Is this Legit?

[Zulu 36]

Just a quick question b-4 I open up a Cold Brewtoniumn.My former Wifes Ex Hubby Who QUIT(WHIMPED OUT) ROTC-NAVY,Well when Patties PaPa died and Was being Buried at Arlington,He showed up wearing an ROTC-Navy Dress Uniform.He said He got Permission too do so.Is this Legit?

If he was in ROTC at the time of the funeral, yeah, it would be OK. Otherwise, no.

[Zulu 36]

I don't know of a case of "Stolen Valor" that was brought without a complaint from a citizen. The FBI certainly isn't going out there beating the bushes looking for those cases on their own.

Plus, lie to the FBI and see what happens.

[irpat54]

This has been talked about before, on other threads, in connection with the Stolen Valor Act. My opinion is that no one can steal valor. They can only act like jerks by pretending they have this or that decoration, but they can no more steal anyone's valor than they can steal someone's inner integrity. The valor is symbolized by the medal or ribbon, it is not inside the medal or ribbon. A bronze star does not contain any valor within it, it just doesn't. A bronze star awarded to someone is for that person's service and valor, it is not the valor itself, as if the person had no valor until he received the medal from someone.

In a store window, a Purple Heart, in a box in the window, does not contain wounded people.

The only time I have a real problem with these idiots who pose, is when they derive some concrete benefit from it, e.g. VA benefits, money, bennies of any kind whatsoever.

But can they really steal someone's valor?

What if I stand up and say I am a former Congressman, but I am not. Did I just cause a Congressman's honor to be compromised? No. I would be an idiot and a jackazz to pose as something I'm not.

But I cannot steal their identity, I cannot steal their valor, I cannot steal anything at all except wear a medal that symbolizes this or that.

What if I said I wrote a biography about Abraham Lincoln, and it turned out I did not? So what? That means I have something wrong with me upstairs, is all.

These posers, there is something dreadfully wrong with them somewhere, but they still cannot steal anyone's valor. How would they be able to do that?

if someone believes that you are Congressman so-n-so, and you do something that tarnishes that name,, and then it is found out that you are not himself,, that doesn't mater in the world of public opinion,, for some the stench of what you did will stick to his name for a very long time if not forever,, look at the lies and false accusations of some repubs, today,, they have been proven wrong but still keep finding there way back into the stream.. so i disagree with you here,, they can and have in the past stolen name and valor.

[FistFu68]

Sgt.Z...No He had Wimped out of Navy ROTC...Years before,So when the Former Woman Beater and Wannabe and I finally do meet don't B-Surprised if tha Fur Flies!!!

[acg8276]

if someone believes that you are Congressman so-n-so, and you do something that tarnishes that name,, and then it is found out that you are not himself,, that doesn't mater in the world of public opinion,, for some the stench of what you did will stick to his name for a very long time if not forever,, look at the lies and false accusations of some repubs, today,, they have been proven wrong but still keep finding there way back into the stream.. so i disagree with you here,, they can and have in the past stolen name and valor.

It's not "stolen valor" but whatever perk, attention or benefit these posers are getting from the misrepresented status that is being stolen. They all have their own reasons for what their doing and for the most part it may be "something wrong upstairs" but when these people get unwarranted praise, attention, political gain or even monetary rewards that is where the stealing comes into the mix. And sometimes all their stealing is someones trust.

Like a bozo I met years ago in the MCL who I was introduced to as Captain so n' so. Only to learn when I got to my Reserve unit the good Captain was in fact only a Staff NCO. There should be penalties for such behavior. While not stealing someones valor, they are tainting and detracting from those that deserve the honors.

[ggyoung]

Reminds me of a incident that happened while I was at Los Pouges. It was time for x-mass leave. A Sgt. Buddie of mine caught one of our battery sh--heads at the bus stop. He was wearing a Silver Star and a P.H. Now this guy not been to Vietnam. My Buddie grabbed him by the head and brought him to the Gunnies office. Well by the time he left he had earned more than P.H. He went to the BAS to be patched up.

[advanced]

Of course if they're democrats they can just say they misspoke like that poser Marine reserve in Conn, now a senator. The people in that state didn't have a problem with his lying asss at all.

[The DUKE]

What does this have to do with the "SECOND AMENDMENT"??

[irpat54]

Here's the real problem---you either have free speech or you don't.
There really is no middle ground.
We can go into a rage, and rightly so, when some jackazz burns the American flag.
We can be as angry as we can get when we see someone say he or she hates the United States of America, their own country.
We can go crazy when we see or hear anything really offensive to basic American values.
We can hate it if a group of weirdos set the USMC flag on fire.

But if they cannot do these things, then WE, the regular people, are not free to do other things.
The two groups of people cannot be separated, under the law. Both groups are either free or they are not free.

I would rather be free than not be free. And if punishing idiots takes away MY freedom along with theirs, that's something I'm not willing to support.

yes but to use it for personal gain,, or then to tarnish someones rep,, there should be penalties for fraud and for destroying ones reputation..imo

[Zulu 36]

It seems to me that none of our Constitutional Rights, as enumerated in the Bill of Rights, are absolute. If they were absolute, there would be no libel or slander laws, no perjury laws, no "yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater" laws (or it's corollary "yelling 'movie' in a crowded firehouse"), no gun control laws laws of any sort, no exceptions to the search and seizure provisions, no Miranda Warnings, no taxpayer paid lawyers, etc.

All the exceptions to the rules are constructs of Congress or the Courts. Sometimes the Constitution gives specific authority to create regulations to manage certain things, other times it is silent. Taken literally, this silence would be a prohibition to regulate. Congress and the Courts frequently view this silence as permission, not prohibition.

If it were OK for people to claim to be Medal of Honor recipients as a free speech matter, then why not give one to every citizen at birth, or have no such award at all? Or give to anyone who desires, a DD-214 with choice of branch, rank, awards, combat service, etc. Why make people bother to earn those accolades? Let anyone be a Major General of Navy SEALS with a MoH, a Philippines Insurrection Medal, a GWOT Medal and ten different kinds of jump wings.

Military service is not compulsory now, but a voluntary service. The accolades of that voluntary service should be protected by law. When service is compulsory, it is even more important to protect the accolades of that service.

If someone were to flash a purported FBI commission book and badge, he'd get nailed to a legal cross whether he profited or not from the claim. I see a distinction without a difference.

[acg8276]

There is a point where fraud has been commited. Any assertion or claim of status that is untrue is in fact a fraudulent one. While our constitution protects our freedom of speech there are no protections for fraudulent behavior.

So to make false claims of military status or heroics that have been recogonized officially with awards is a crime. Especially when said claims provide any gain, be it political, monetary or whatever. And as such should be a punishable offence. for the person making the claim.

[silverdollar]

If they outlaw lying, just think how many lawyers will be added to the unemployment numbers.