Marine Killed By Deputy in Orange Co.

[USMC2571]

I'm still not hearing any updates about what started this whole incident: the gate-crashing incident. That, if true, is pretty bizarre in itself, and could lead to something like what happened.

We'll just have to wait for the rest of the story, if there is one.

[irpat54]

ya but two things,, why after all these years that the gate was open,, was it closed,, and why wasn't the cop cam in the car running,,,

[SGT RED]

Orange Co. SO is in "CYA" mode big-time! If this was a cut and dry "justified shoot," there would be nothing to hide! The biggest discrepancy is the lack of a police car video. If the situation went down like the officer has stated; ie: loud noise, early morning hours, behind a school, suspicious vehicle at the scene...... why was the video on the police car not activated? HELLO...... common sense should have told the officer to initiate the video! So far, there is absolutely no "reliable" reason there was not a video! There are two sides to every story, and I'm sure we'll never know the exact reason(s) this happened the way it did. The Marine was killed at the scene, so all we'll ever have is the officer's side of the story... and it's been changed at least twice since the initial reporting of the incident. This crap "I shot in fear of the lives of the children" doesn't cut it though! The kids were in the car... and shots were fired into the vehicle? That just "doesn't wash!" I've been in law enforcement for 30+ years and I am appalled at the actions taken by this officer to "stop the threat!"

[irpat54]

i agree,, like i said in earlier post,, when my first wife and i were stopped while we were both home on leave the confusion from two cops telling us to do two different things was massive,,, i can see how the Cop must have felt,, dark area,, big guy in a dark area,, the stress level must have been off the chart,, with us back in Michigan in 76 there was a armed robbery and my car a 69 fast back was like the one used in it, but still it was a mass of confusion

[USMC2571]

Again, that is a good point, and really something to think about.
We can Monday morning quarterback it, but it only happens once, and in less than a few minutes.....your example shows that perfectly.....

[boomer56328]

Orange Co. SO is in "CYA" mode big-time! If this was a cut and dry "justified shoot," there would be nothing to hide! The biggest discrepancy is the lack of a police car video. If the situation went down like the officer has stated; ie: loud noise, early morning hours, behind a school, suspicious vehicle at the scene...... why was the video on the police car not activated? HELLO...... common sense should have told the officer to initiate the video! So far, there is absolutely no "reliable" reason there was not a video! There are two sides to every story, and I'm sure we'll never know the exact reason(s) this happened the way it did. The Marine was killed at the scene, so all we'll ever have is the officer's side of the story... and it's been changed at least twice since the initial reporting of the incident. This crap "I shot in fear of the lives of the children" doesn't cut it though! The kids were in the car... and shots were fired into the vehicle? That just "doesn't wash!" I've been in law enforcement for 30+ years and I am appalled at the actions taken by this officer to "stop the threat!"

You say you have 30+ years in law enforcement so I find your response somewhat confusing to me. First, are we even sure the vehicle was equipped with a video system? Even in this day not all police vehicles have video. Second, did you really turn on your video everytime you went to check something out or went on a call? There's usally video on traffic stops because it is automatically turned on with the lights. You can turn it on manually, but I really don't know of anywhere that does that for every call so I can easily see why there wouldn't be any available.

Also I believe from what I've read that the deputy didn't know if the children were supposed to be with this suspect who was acting irrationally. Now I can see an argument being made for getting the children out when he was away from the car, but at the point where he is ignoring commands and putting the car in drive with them inside it's to late for the deputy at that point can't go back and fix that mistake. Also you say it like shooting into the car put the children at risk. It may very well have, but I don't believe any of us no the postioning of the children in the car, the suspect, and the deputy. It's very possible that the children were clear from the deputy's vantage point.

Now I'm not saying that the shooting was a good shoot or a bad shoot. I am just wondering why you seem so willing to just make all these assumptions that the officer was wrong when 1. the investigation isn't complete and 2. you weren't there and in that deputys shoes. As a cop you gotta know how everyone is always so willing to assume the officer is in the wrong. I personally find it disappointing that another officer just assumes the same without even waiting for the investigation to be completed.

Just food for thought. We recently had a case in my area where a father kidnapped his own children. The father is to have no contact with the mother or children, is known to be violent and mentally unstable. The mother calls the cops and they show up as the father is about to leave her home. He sees the cops, jumps in his truck, and against orders given by the officers on scene throws it in drive and takes off almost hitting someone as he does. The officers give chase and a pursuit ensues with speeds reaching above 100 mph. The father eventually wrecks out at over 100 mph with the children inside and not in any seatbelts. By the grace of God they survived, but the ending to that could have been very different. Now what if officers on scene would have had an oppritunity and had taken the suspect out before the chase even began?

Now just assuming what has been said by the deputy is true (again I am assuming, not saying it is), put yourself in this his shoes. This man is acting irrationally and not obeying commands given by you. He has just crashed his vehicle thru a closed fence into a school. There are children in the car that you don't know if they are supposed to be there and they are crying. The suspect igores your orders and puts his vehicle in drive and begins to leave.

My point is this. Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire.

[irpat54]

supposed to be with this suspect who was acting irrationally

we have one account of him acting irrationally,,and when you see a vehicle and are going to confront a suspect, you always turn your camera on to cover you own butt,,i would find it very hare to believe that an officer alone would be in a vehicle without a camera

My point is this. Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire.

the police union started the weirdness by trying to demean the dead Marine,, which prompted something unheard of and that was the Commanding Officer for whom he was under to get involved,, to repudiate the claim made by the Union

[boomer56328]

Well, believe it. While all of our patrol cars do now have cameras. It wasn't very long ago that they didn't and we've always patrolled solo. I also still know of some places that have units w/o cameras. As for always turning it on, I can see the argument for doing it, but I don't and I'm not aware of anyplace that does require that. Different areas of the country do work differently though so I'm not arguing on wither it's a good idea. I'm just saying it's not that outlandish that there isn't video.We are required to have every contact recorded either on the on car camera or on our personal recorders. Somethimes things do happen so fast that the recorder isn't turned on. Also depending on the location there is no guarantee a in-car video would of even captured the event although it would capture the audio as long as the deputy was wearing the mic.

[SGT RED]

You say you have 30+ years in law enforcement so I find your response somewhat confusing to me. First, are we even sure the vehicle was equipped with a video system? Even in this day not all police vehicles have video. Second, did you really turn on your video everytime you went to check something out or went on a call? There's usally video on traffic stops because it is automatically turned on with the lights. You can turn it on manually, but I really don't know of anywhere that does that for every call so I can easily see why there wouldn't be any available.

Also I believe from what I've read that the deputy didn't know if the children were supposed to be with this suspect who was acting irrationally. Now I can see an argument being made for getting the children out when he was away from the car, but at the point where he is ignoring commands and putting the car in drive with them inside it's to late for the deputy at that point can't go back and fix that mistake. Also you say it like shooting into the car put the children at risk. It may very well have, but I don't believe any of us no the postioning of the children in the car, the suspect, and the deputy. It's very possible that the children were clear from the deputy's vantage point.

Now I'm not saying that the shooting was a good shoot or a bad shoot. I am just wondering why you seem so willing to just make all these assumptions that the officer was wrong when 1. the investigation isn't complete and 2. you weren't there and in that deputys shoes. As a cop you gotta know how everyone is always so willing to assume the officer is in the wrong. I personally find it disappointing that another officer just assumes the same without even waiting for the investigation to be completed.

Just food for thought. We recently had a case in my area where a father kidnapped his own children. The father is to have no contact with the mother or children, is known to be violent and mentally unstable. The mother calls the cops and they show up as the father is about to leave her home. He sees the cops, jumps in his truck, and against orders given by the officers on scene throws it in drive and takes off almost hitting someone as he does. The officers give chase and a pursuit ensues with speeds reaching above 100 mph. The father eventually wrecks out at over 100 mph with the children inside and not in any seatbelts. By the grace of God they survived, but the ending to that could have been very different. Now what if officers on scene would have had an oppritunity and had taken the suspect out before the chase even began?

Now just assuming what has been said by the deputy is true (again I am assuming, not saying it is), put yourself in this his shoes. This man is acting irrationally and not obeying commands given by you. He has just crashed his vehicle thru a closed fence into a school. There are children in the car that you don't know if they are supposed to be there and they are crying. The suspect igores your orders and puts his vehicle in drive and begins to leave.

My point is this. Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...nty&id=8539913

Read the above article - Shortly after the incident, this story came out in the news. Go to paragraph 9 "The entire incident was caught on the patrol car's dashboard camera."
You've asked "Are we even sure the vehicle was equipped with a video system?" Who knows for sure? The stories have changed 2-3 times, but this article states there is a video! Your second question "Did you really turn on your video every time you went to check something out or went on a call? Absolutely! The camera was activated automatically whenever the blue lights were on, and my department's S.O.P. was to activate the camera system always where there were exigent circumstances. Even if we were out of view, the video would be recorded!

In reference to shooting inside the vehicle, you state "It's very possible that the children were clear from the deputy's vantage point?" Clear…? Is there such a thing as clear when you shoot into an area the size of a vehicle compartment when there are children inside? Ever hear of a ricochet?

Further, not once have I condemned the officer's actions, except for the fact that I have remarked about his ridiculous statement that he shot the driver out of fear for the lives for the children. If you remember, his first statement was that he was in fear for his own life! I have stated that Orange County SO is in a "CYA" (cover your a**) mode… and that's only because of the conflicting statements from them, the deputies, and the news articles. Incidentally, our S.O.P. mandates that a PIO (Public Information Officer) shall be the only representative from the agency to release information to the press. There should have been one, and only one, press release given until the facts were straight! Looks like there's a "dog and pony show" going on there now; that's why there is even more confusion as to the facts!

And, as you say: FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Your very last sentence is "Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire. No matter what the deputy did, whether his actions were honorable or not, he is, and always will be a Marine!

[acg8276]

The one question that keeps popping into my mind is this.

If the cop fired because he was worried about the screaming kids. What were the kids screaming?

"DADDY", "DADDY DON'T", "DADDY"... whatever is all I can think of.

And I have to wonder if shooting that close to the children was prudent or not.

It's just a crappy situation.

[irpat54]

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...nty&id=8539913

Read the above article - Shortly after the incident, this story came out in the news. Go to paragraph 9 "The entire incident was caught on the patrol car's dashboard camera."
You've asked "Are we even sure the vehicle was equipped with a video system?" Who knows for sure? The stories have changed 2-3 times, but this article states there is a video! Your second question "Did you really turn on your video every time you went to check something out or went on a call? Absolutely! The camera was activated automatically whenever the blue lights were on, and my department's S.O.P. was to activate the camera system always where there were exigent circumstances. Even if we were out of view, the video would be recorded!

In reference to shooting inside the vehicle, you state "It's very possible that the children were clear from the deputy's vantage point?" Clear…? Is there such a thing as clear when you shoot into an area the size of a vehicle compartment when there are children inside? Ever hear of a ricochet?

Further, not once have I condemned the officer's actions, except for the fact that I have remarked about his ridiculous statement that he shot the driver out of fear for the lives for the children. If you remember, his first statement was that he was in fear for his own life! I have stated that Orange County SO is in a "CYA" (cover your a**) mode… and that's only because of the conflicting statements from them, the deputies, and the news articles. Incidentally, our S.O.P. mandates that a PIO (Public Information Officer) shall be the only representative from the agency to release information to the press. There should have been one, and only one, press release given until the facts were straight! Looks like there's a "dog and pony show" going on there now; that's why there is even more confusion as to the facts!

And, as you say: FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Your very last sentence is "Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire. No matter what the deputy did, whether his actions were honorable or not, he is, and always will be a Marine!

Agreed,, I hope things get cleared up soon,,, I feel for the family of the dead Marine and for the Deputy as well,, I can only imagine what is going through his head...

[acg8276]

An educational fund has been created for Loggins’ family by The Heritage of San Clemente Foundation and the San Clemente Chamber of Commerce. Contributions can be made through any branch of Farmer & Merchants Bank and donors can also mail their contributions directly to San Clemente Chamber of Commerce, c/o of Sgt. Loggins Childrens' Memorial Fund, 1100 North El Camino Real, San Clemente, Calif. 92672. Checks can be made out to: Sgt. Loggins Childrens' Memorial Fund. Contributions are not tax-deductible. For more information, email heritage@marinemoument.org.


Read more: San Clemente Times - Deputy in Shooting ID d Friends of Marine Tell of Christian Man

http://www.sanclementetimes.com/view...ance=eye_on_sc

[irpat54]

see this is what is driving me nuts here,, how is it that one person (Deputy) says he (the dead Marine) was acting strange,, but the whole community and the Base says he was a completely different person,,, this is the stuff that make me crazy,,,,,, er

[Zulu 36]

see this is what is driving me nuts here,, how is it that one person (Deputy) says he (the dead Marine) was acting strange,, but the whole community and the Base says he was a completely different person,,, this is the stuff that make me crazy,,,,,, er

People do funny things.

My department had a shooting where officers responded on a prowler call. They found the prowler, who immediately attacked an officer with a knife. It turned out to be a big cake frosting knife.

Shots fired, the suspect ran down the street, turning with his hands together like he had a gun. More shots and the guy finally collapses, shot five times. He lived - barely. He had no gun.

When I interviewed him at the hospital a couple of days later, he admitted freely that he never intended to hurt a cop (hence the frosting knife), but was attempting suicide by cop. He was disappointed that they weren't better shots, but held no animosity. He admitted the same story to the court appointed shrinks. He was actually a friendly guy with a lot of problems.

All of his family and friends were shocked that he tried such a thing.

We had four citizen witnesses and four officers all telling essentially the same story as the shot guy told. He copped a plea to felonious assault and got court-ordered in-patient psychiatric treatment.

Now, the funny thing was the four officers fired about 30 shots between them. A parked car got shot up some and a bullet hit a house, breaking a window and lodging in a door frame. The TV news people were going door-to-door trying to get people to bad mouth the cops for shooting so much. One guy told them he would be happy to buy the department ammunition to replace what they fired. The city was smart and was on top of getting damaged property repaired without quibble, and the whole neighborhood was on our side.

The media also tried to turn it into a racial issue as the shot prowler was black and the four cops white. Except the house he was prowling around was owned by a black family. Ooopsy. Then the suicide-by-cop story came out. Double-ooopsy.

Moral to this story is: Things aren't necessarily what they appear to be at first.

[irpat54]

that may be true,, but in this case,, the police story changes,, then the union tries to bad mouth the dead Marine, and everyone and i mean everyone tells of a loving and very friendly Man,,,now i understand the Officers have a very different time as i noted earlier,, but why would he take his kids with him to commit suicidal,, and why would he take his Bibles one for him and two more for his kids,,it would seam to me that in this case, imo, it looks like they are dragging there feet over a mistake,,that is the impressions i am getting