Our Judeo-Christian Nation

[gkmoz]

My own Ohio seems to be founded on christien principles, says so in plain black n white, not suer what reservist is talking about

And Virginia too !

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other

[MOS4429]

Marine1011, it is a "treaty." It has no applicability to the U.S. Constitution or any state constitution and no jurisdiction on U.S. sovereignty. My post with the article from David Barton goes far in explaining it.

[Mongoose]

Great job, brother!

[advanced]

I have learned a great deal from this thread. Especially that Islam has been warring on us since our very beginning. Paying them off didn't work then, nor is it now. It seems that the only thing that Islam truly respects is the unleashing of a few good Marines.

[Mongoose]

I have learned a great deal from this thread. Especially that Islam has been warring on us since our very beginning. Paying them off didn't work then, nor is it now. It seems that the only thing that Islam truly respects is the unleashing of a few good Marines.

Afew good Marines, with the right mind-set, and untied hands.

[awbrown1462]

The treaty of Tripoli

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

I call your Treaty and raise you two quotes from George Washington

"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible."

"Do not let any one claim to be a true American if they ever attempt to remove religion from politics."

First President of the United States - George Washington

[advanced]

[chulaivet1966]

"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible." "Do not let any one claim to be a true American if they ever attempt to remove religion from politics."

Wow...I'm a bit stunned by these historical quotes.

But, I do like history.

Carry on....

[MOS4429]

Wow...I'm a bit stunned by these historical quotes.

But, I do like history.

Carry on....

Wayne, I like His-story, too. This nation's history is replete with quotes referencing their devout belief in Christianity. For instance, Thomas Jefferson, critics say was a diest, other say, no, he was an agnostic, said of himself:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man."

"The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."

"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."

While many might claim Thomas Jefferson was a diest, rather than listening to modern claims, I find it most educational and useful to listen to his own words.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." Doesn't sound like a diest to me, and certainly not an agnostic.

In fact, Thomas Jefferson wrote a Primer intended for the Indians on the teachings of Christ entitled, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth." What Jefferson did was he took the “red letter” portions of the New Testament and published these teachings in order to introduce the Indians to Christian morality. When he was President of the United States, he signed a treaty with the Kaskaskia tribe wherein he provided—at the government's expense—Christian missionaries to the Indians.

[TheReservist]

So were any of those quotes signed off by the President, ratified by the senate and then presented to the international community? No but the treaty of tripoli was...

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible. - Thomas Paine

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. - Thomas Jefferson

[Zulu 36]

So were any of those quotes signed off by the President, ratified by the senate and then presented to the international community? No but the treaty of tripoli was...

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible. - Thomas Paine

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. - Thomas Jefferson

Where did that quote from Thomas Jefferson come from?

[TheReservist]

It is apart of a collection of his letters, The Works, Vol. 1

The sentence is from a larger quote which is a part of an entire letter.

Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it. If it ever, therefore, was adopted into the common law, it must have been between the introduction of Christianity and the date of the Magna Charta. But of the laws of this period, we have a tolerable collection, by Lambard and Wilkins; probably not perfect, but neither very defective; and if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it; but none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons, to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians; and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are able to find among them no such act of adoption; we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law. Another cogent proof of this truth is drawn from the silence of certain writers on the common law. Bracton gives us a very complete and scientific treatis of the whole body of the common law. He wrote this about the close of the reign of Henry III, a very few years after the date of the Magna Charta. We may consider this book as the more valuable, as it was written about the time which divides the common and statute law; and therefore gives us the former in its ultimate state

http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php...#chapter_85799

[MOS4429]

So were any of those quotes signed off by the President, ratified by the senate and then presented to the international community? No but the treaty of tripoli was...

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. - Thomas Jefferson

What is presented to the international community is irrelevant. What is before America is relevant. One quote in one treaty stated for one specific purpose ignores the volumes that speak otherwise.

The quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson, was written in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper from Monticello on Feburary 10, 1814, and of course was referring to The Common Law that existed in England. His argument at the time he wrote was that the common law existed in England 200 years before he believed Christianity arrived there, hence, "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

Ten years after his letter to Cooper, concerning the same subject, Jefferson blamed judges for promoting what he believed was the mistaken idea that there was a connection between Christianity and the law. He wrote, "The common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed."

It is imporant to understand the context and mind set of Jefferson's mind at the time he wrote that quote, "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

However, Joseph Story, a contemporary of Jeffersons,, also a U. S. Congressman and a U.S. Supreme Court Justice appointed by President James Madison disagreed and criticized Jefferson's letter. Story wrote, "It appears to me inconceivable how any man can doubt that Christianity is part of the Common Law of England." Years later, in a speech at Harvard University, he said, "There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations." In addition, Story writes, "One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations." "I verily believe that Christianity is necessary to support a civil society and shall ever attend to its institutions and acknowledge its precepts as the pure and natural sources of private and social happiness."

Who is wrong? Setting aside our "founding fathers," in recent years a federal appeals court in 1995 rules it was a "historical fact that the Ten Commandments served over time as the basis of our national law."

In 2000, a federal appeals court ruled that the Ten Commandments have had an "indisputable influence on the development of secular law."

In 2002, a federal appeals court ruled "what any sober student of history knows: for good or bad, right or wrong, the Ten Commandments did have an influence upon the development of United States law."

Segueing back to our Founding Fathers, John Adams, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a Judge, a Diplomat, of of two signers to the Bill of Rights, and 2nd President of the United States, said, "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

"The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.

"Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!

"I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world."

The 1854 Congress wrote: "The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Benjamin Franklin, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a diplomat, a printer, scientist, signer of the U.S. Constitution, Governor of Pennsylvania wrote: "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see."

In his eulogy that he wrote himself, he writes: "The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beatiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author."

[MOS4429]

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible. - Thomas Paine

THOMAS PAINE. What took you so long to post a quote from Thomas Paine? I have been waiting with bated breath. Of ALL Founding Fathers, Thomas Paine was the least religious. Even though he was the least religious, in a speech he delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, Thomas Paine harshly criticized what the French were then teaching in their science classes-especially the philosophy they were using.

Interestingly, that same science philosophy of which Thomas Paine was so critical is identical to that used in our public schools today! Paine's indictment of that philosophy is particularly significant in light of the fact that all historians today concede that Thomas Paine was one of the very least religious of our Founders. Modernist like to say he was a deist, yet, even Paine could not abide teaching science, which excluded God's work and hand in the creation of the world and of all scientific phenomena. Below is an excerpt from that speech.

"Thomas Paine on "The Study of God"
Delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, in a
Discourse to the Society of Theophilanthropists

"It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles. He can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.

"When we examine an extraordinary piece of machinery, an astonishing pile of architecture, a well executed statue or a highly finished painting where life and action are imitated, and habit only prevents our mistaking a surface of light and shade for cubical solidity, our ideas are naturally led to think of the extensive genius and talents of the artist. When we study the elements of geometry, we think of Euclid. When we speak of gravitation, we think of Newton. How then is it, that when we study the works of God in the creation, we stop short, and do not think of God? It is from the error of the schools in having taught those subjects as accomplishments only, and thereby separated the study of them form the Being who is the author of them. . . .

"The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of the creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of His existence. They labor with studied ingenuity to ascribe everything they behold to innate properties of matter; and jump over all the rest, by saying that matter is eternal."

Would that Paine were alive today! He would SLAM our public school system.

Thomas Paine frequently consulted Benjamin Franklin for advice and suggestions regarding his political writings, and Franklin assisted Paine with some of his famous essays. This letter is Franklin's response to a manuscript Paine sent him that advocated against the concept of a providential God.
"To Thomas Paine
[Date uncertain.]

"DEAR SIR,

"I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence, that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion, that, though your reasonings are subtile and may prevail with some readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general sentiments of mankind on that subject, and the consequence of printing this piece will be, a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits against the wind, spits in his own face.

"But, were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother.

"I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it. I intend this letter itself as a proof of my friendship, and therefore add no professions to it; but subscribe simply yours,

"B. Franklin"
Paine later published his Age of Reason, which infuriated many of the Founding Fathers. John Adams wrote, "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will." Samuel Adams wrote Paine a stiff rebuke, telling him, "[W]hen I heard you had turned your mind to a defence of infidelity, I felt myself much astonished and more grieved that you had attempted a measure so injurious to the feelings and so repugnant to the true interest of so great a part of the citizens of the United States."

Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration, wrote to his friend and signer of the Constitution John Dickinson that Paine's Age of Reason was "absurd and impious"; Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, described Paine's work as "blasphemous writings against the Christian religion"; John Witherspoon said that Paine was "ignorant of human nature as well as an enemy to the Christian faith"; and Elias Boudinot, President of Congress, even published the Age of Revelation—a full-length rebuttal to Paine's work. ⁷ Patrick Henry, too, wrote a refutation of Paine's work which he described as "the puny efforts of Paine."

When William Paterson, signer of the Constitution and a Justice on the U. S. Supreme Court, learned that some Americans seemed to agree with Paine's work, he thundered, "Infatuated Americans, why renounce your country, your religion, and your God?" Zephaniah Swift, author of America's first law book, noted, "He has the impudence and effrontery [shameless boldness] to address to the citizens of the United States of America a paltry performance which is intended to shake their faith in the religion of their fathers." John Jay, an author of the Federalist Papers and the original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, was comforted by the fact that Christianity would prevail despite Paine's attack,"I have long been of the opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds." In fact, Paine's views caused such vehement public opposition that he spent his last years in New York as "an outcast" in "social ostracism" and was buried in a farm field because no American cemetery would accept his remains.

(While Benjamin Franklin was serving in London as diplomat from the Colonies to the King, Franklin met Englishman Thomas Paine (born 1737, died 1809). Franklin arranged for him to move to America in 1774 and helped set him up in the printing business. In 1776, Paine wrote Common Sense, which helped fuel the separation of America from Great Britain. He then served as a soldier in the American Revolution. He returned to England in 1787, and then went to France in 1792 as a supporter of the French Revolution. In 1794, he published his Age of Reason, the deistic work, which brought him much criticism from his former American friends. Upon his return to America in 1802, he found no welcome and eventually died as an outcast.)

[awbrown1462]

Article 11
Article 11 has been a point of contention in disputes on the doctrine of separation of church and state as it applies to the founding principles of the United States. Some religious spokesmen such as David Barton claim variously that — despite unanimous ratification by the U.S. Senate in English — the text which appears as Article 11 in the English translation does not appear in the Arabic text of the treaty, that though the English phrase is not an untrue statement since it is referring to the federal government, a number of the founders described America as a Christian nation, or that the quotation is based on an incomplete reading of Article 11.
The translation of the Treaty of Tripoli by Barlow has been questioned, and it has been disputed whether Article 11 in the English version of the treaty ratified by the U.S. Senate corresponds to anything of the same purport in the Arabic version. In 1931 Hunter Miller completed a commission by the United States government to analyze United States' treaties and to explain how they function and what they mean to the United States' legal position in relationship with the rest of the world. According to Hunter Miller's notes, "the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic" and "Article 11... does not exist at all."
After comparing the United States' version by Barlow with the Arabic and the Italian version, Miller continues by claiming that:

The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point.