Marine Corps 0311 vs. Army 11b?

[Zulu 36]

Some of the other posters have indicated your lack of personal knowledge of the two services. So true. At 15 I was much like you, except, I was definitely a Marine wannabe. The Army sucked, nothing good to be found there.

During my time in the Corps, I went to an Army school. The regular Army people left me underwhelmed (with a few exceptions). However, the Rangers and Special Forces guys were great and I had a lot of respect for them. Why? Because they had attitudes like Marines. They took pride in all the same little things Marines do; appearance, self-discipline, self-respect, pride in their unit, and desire to be the best at what ever they are doing. In fact, they preferred to associate with Marines than regular Army people and we Marines preferred to be around them. Had a lot of fun on and off duty.

I learned a lot of good stuff from SF guys too, then and later when I was in the Air Guard. No shame in admitting it. A professional learns what he can from whomever he can. I knew SF guys who were every bit as good as any Marine you could point out, maybe better, and I have no problem saying that.

BTW - I once met SFC Randy Shugart, a DELTA operator. Look him up on Google. This was one tough guy when I met him and he was a tough guy until he died.

Rangers are the primary backup forces for DELTA and Special Forces Teams. Early in Afghanistan, when not enough Rangers were available, the SF people had no problem taking regular Marine infantry platoons from the MEUs to help them out. They knew the Marine grunts could do the job every bit as well as Rangers, and they brought extra toys to the fight. Where Marine grunts go, so goes their close air support.

Actually, the SpecOps people were hoping more Marines would be sent into the Tora Bora, but that was not to be. They had to be happy with temporarily assigned platoons (assigned quietly).

The Big Leagues play very well together and the Army Big League teams like to play on the same side with Marines.

Join whatever service you'd like to join. Just remember at 15 you don't know beans about anything in the real world. You will admit the truth of this while you are in boot camp or basic training, whichever.

In the great scheme of life, being retired from the Air National Guard, and having known many superb Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen (PJs, CC people, my oldest daughter), I am still very happy and proud I can say I am a Marine, like my brother, like my father, like my great-uncle, and like my grandfather. Why? Because not everyone can honestly claim that title and I EARNED it with the scars to prove it.

[afraziaaaa]

I honestly don't mean to bash on the Marine Corps in any way. The reason why I am asking this is because the Marine Corps has caught my attention and I just need to get some answers and/or clear some things up. I enjoy the Marine Corps values.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong on anything, and any points you want to bring up please do so.

I am considering enlisting with either a UZ Recon contract or a 11x option 40 contract (Ranger). I have been training hard over the last 3 years for this. I have a 27:43 4 mile, can do 120 push ups in 2:00, 109 sit ups in 2:00, 18 pull ups, and am a proficient swimmer.

I was looking at the pros and cons of each branch and I found that all of the pros for the Marine Corps are INTANGIBLE such as more pride, commraderie, honor, discipline, etc. All of the TANGIBLE pros belong to the Army such as faster promotions, more opportunities for advancement, more funding, better equipment, more support, etc.

I also found that most of the things that Marines brag about either aren't true, can be disproved, or the Army could do better (correct me if I'm wrong). For example, Marines always say that they are the best marksman, they talk about having to shoot 500 yards down range and their standards are higher. But the Army shoots pop up and moving targets a lot more (which I find to be more useful for a combat situation) and the Army has won marksmanship contest for the last 11+ years in a row. Marines always say they are the first to fight. But the CIA, Air Force, Special Forces, and Rangers were in the middle east before a Marine stepped foot on Iraqi soil. The only way that statement is true is if you compare 0311 to 11b, MEUs can get there quick. But being there first doesn't mean you have the toughest battles. Marines always talk about being elite or tougher, I do not see this as the case. I would say they are probably tougher and more disciplined. But I don't think they are more elite, the Army receives very similar training, but use better equipment and have more support. Marines say that the Army has no standards and that's why there are so many Rangers, Snipers, and etc. But it is because they are a larger branch and are more funded, thus more positions are available.

Most Marines will say you need to want to be a Marine. They hold the title of Marine as the highest honor. But I could say everyone who enlist in the Army must want to be a Soldier. It is the same thing.

If you wanted to compare Boot Camp vs Ft. Benning, I would say they are similar. I would give Boot Camp the edge, but it is initial training and I don't think that a Marines career and honor needs to fall under a 13 week program that is designed for you to succeed. SOI and OSUT are practically the same, they learn the same tactics and marksmanship standards are the only real difference. But like I mentioned above just because you shoot farther doesn't mean you are a better marksman, I think the ability to proficiently shoot a moving target is just as important as being able to hit someone from 500 yards away.

So after SOI and OSUT they are relativly the same, only the Soldier has better equipment (tangible), and the Marine knows more about USMC history (intangible). The reason why I stress tangibles and intangibles so much is because I believe that having a better equipment and more support is going to keep me alive a lot better than knowing the date the Marine Corps was born or something random. I guess the real question for me at this point would be "Do I want to be promoted faster or do I want more pride?" I think at this point I would rather be a Marine.

Army Airborne is more effective than a standard 0311 in my opinion because airborne insertions can be done anywhere and can provide more of a shock to the opponent. Amphibious assaults are rarely done and haven't been used much since Vietnam. So I would rather be a Airborne Infantryman than a 0311 Rifleman. Plus I'm sure by the time someone makes it through Airborne school they have just as much pride, commraderie, and discipline as any Marine.

There really is no point in comparing Rangers and Recon or any other elite group. They are both effective and have nothing but first class personell.

So my question is what are some TANGIBLE benefits to being a Marine. Please don't say honor or anything like that, because that is intangible. Like I said at the top of this post. I really don't mean to bash on the Marine Corps, but I hear how great they are all the time and I can't find any real reason. It seems like propaganda from the Marine Corps Recruiting Department.

Also how much direct action combat do Recon Marines see

Thanks in advance and thanks to all veterans who have served our nation, nothing but respect for you.

Here is a legit answer. I am not trying to bash you either, but this is going to be hard for you to hear.

From my experience in the Marine Corps and on recruiting duty, I can tell you that most people with your demeanor never make it through recruit training. What I mean is that people who think so much about every minor detail to the point of obsession (like you are doing with the decision you have outlined) either never make it through boot camp, or become terrible Marines and hate the Marine Corps during their time in.

The individuals who say "F**K it, I'm joining the Corps and I don't give a S**T what anybody thinks about it", are always the top notch performers in our service. Deep down, I think that adventurous attitude is a character trait that is in every Marine. Matter of factly, it characterizes our entire branch of service and makes us unique. It really is a part of the mystique that is the Marine Corps. I doubt any other Marine on this website will have a different opinion.

Every person I have talked to about the Marine Corps that has gone and joined the Army has always done it because the Army offered them "more" of some "thing". More money, more jobs, more equipment, more duty station options, etc. This seems to be what you are saying here.

I don't know for sure, but let's say the Army wins every competition in the military. Wrestling, boxing, shooting, you name it. That is not going to change the Marine Corps one bit. Simply because we do not give a F**K about BS like that. We train to the highest standards to accomplish our mission in any terrain. Firefights are firefights no matter if Army, Marines, Coast Guard, or civilian Milita is involved. Marines will be effective anywhere because that is what we do as I mentioned before. All branches are great branches of service and each branch is better for a specific type of person. In my opinion, as you are now, the Marine Corps is not as good of a fit for you as the Army is.

My advice is stop being such a tool about this and go with your gut. The world is 8,000,000,000 years old and you will probably live to be 80. Divide 80 by 8,000,000,000 and you will see how insignificant things like better equipment are in the grand scheme of life. Good luck.

[advanced]

What's all this bs about the army having better equipment, I had my rifle, my k-bar and my air support. That gave us hard-on's. "Mess with the best, Die with the Rest." Think about it.

[whitelabels]

Ignore the derp; a lot of it is irrelevant. You have voiced valid concerns for someone who doesn't know.

While the tangibles in the Army are greater, no one enlisted in the Marine Corps to do four years and go to school, or to be a certain MOS, they enlist to become a Marine and support the combat effort. While a lot of that is stupid, walk into any IPAC filled with Marines who have enlisted in the last 8 years and ask who wants to go to Afghanistan in combat support billets and you will find a lot more of that "go to battle" attitude.

In the current battle a supply/admin/medic/grunt are the same. Their training, equipment, and tactical proficiency is different but if you enlist in the Marine Corps you know the silly POGs to the left of you that somehow got their admin convey broke down won't run away, a lot of the soldier brothers will because "their not combat soldiers."

Plus we have cooler blue pants.

[jairen]

So how often does a large army unit actually do an airborne insertion?

Answer: almost never


There is a sort of force continuum when it comes to insertions. The easiest and safest means are always the first looked at ie by ground. Then you have by aircraft- 1. actually landing. 2. by rope ie still affixed to the aircraft - rappelling and fast rope. 3. Parachuting


The only people in the Army doing airborne insertions on mission on 'regular' basis are the special operator types. Same goes for the Air Force, Navy or Marine Corps.


The Marine Corps has probably done more amphibious ops than army infantry has done mass airborne insertions.

Something the OP obviously doesn't understand is helicopter insertions born at sea = amphip assault. He most likely is thinking of amphibious assaults as the boats crashing the shore, WWII style, and not fully understanding what/how the Marine Corps operates.

The last time the Army has made a large scale assault by parachute I would guess was Grenada. The Marine Corps has made more amphibious assualts in the 21st century than the Army has made para-assaults in the last 70 years.

Just sayin...

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I'll chime in as the 'history geek' in the room to clarify a few things....

The Army did do a combat jump in Grenada, albeit a smaller one. Same thing in Panama. And, again, finally in Iraq. Last UNIT (not counting SpecOps...totally different animal there) to do a combat jump was an outfit out of the 173rd Airborne.

Now to my own little saga, unlike many here, I was totally and completely 'ate up' with the Army. Airborne/Ranger, man, that was ME. I was a constant hangabout and knew the army recruiters very well.

Buddy of mine enlisted in the Marines and dragged me in to see the USMC recruiter. I had never even considered the 'Corps, not once. Within an hour, I was hooked. The telling statement that 'got' me was when the recruiter asked 'Why the army?'. I said (Like soooo very many typical 16 year old wannerbees today) "Cause I wanna be an E-LITE fightin sojer!" (Or something along those lines). The recruiter looked at me and calmly stated "Son, ALL Marines are elite, you ever think of that?"

Shortly thereafter, the army lost a recruit and the rest, as they say, is history. LOL.

A final word, I did end up doing some time as an 11Boo in a reserve unit. Many of us were 'former' Marines. But being in the army, you are 'just' another sojer or 11Bravo. Big fat hairy deal. Unless you are SF or Delta, realistically, you are just a 'Joe'. The army takes EVERYone, and you can all be unique together.

Just the way it is.

[Zulu 36]

Both the jumps in Grenada and Panama turned into goat ropes, like most large scale airborne ops have. Had the defending forces been on the scale of, say British soldiers, almost none of those Rangers would have survived the jumps and subsequent fire fights. So you've got to pick your fights carefully, which reduces your overall capability.

The 173rd jump into northern Iraq went pretty well because SF teams and the Kurdish peshmerga owned the DZ.

Yet, when the 15th MEU went into Afghanistan in late-2001, they staged an amphibious assault and never used a boat or a trac to land troops in country. All helo.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Yup yup and yup.

As the Germans (and us for that matter) found out the hard way, large scale Airborne operations (Crete, Market Garden) can be neutralized by well trained and disciplined troops on the ground. The Luftwaffe Fallscirmjaeger's were decimated by the Brit troops on the ground at Crete, and the Brit and American Airborne divisions had the same thing done to them by the II SS Panzer Corps in Holland.

[acparks14]

28+ post later not a single one of you has given me a tangible reason. All you can do is call me a kid. I have not once read something like "According to statistics Marines do X better than the Army."

The ONLY stat that I found was that the Army death rate is 0.08% higher. But they are deployed for twice as long. Imagine how much higher the USMC's would be if they stayed 15+ months.

This just kinda proves that the Army might just be better.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

So then GO there.

Quite frankly, the Marine Corps doesn't much need you anyway. Go forth and be cannon fodder, treated like a child barely able to feed itself, and where E-8's hold the same responsibility as an E-3 in the Marine Corps.

Go forth and have fun.

[Swampfox]

28+ post later not a single one of you has given me a tangible reason. All you can do is call me a kid. I have not once read something like "According to statistics Marines do X better than the Army."

The ONLY stat that I found was that the Army death rate is 0.08% higher. But they are deployed for twice as long. Imagine how much higher the USMC's would be if they stayed 15+ months.

This just kinda proves that the Army might just be better.

The food is definitely better in the Corps. That's a big tangible kid!

[VictoryttBold]

I say that you all have been trolled.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Ahh, probably. But sometimes trolls are fun to play with if we've nothing better to do.

Hey at least he filled out his profile LOL

[VictoryttBold]

Trolled or not I could give a fvck what he does. Come on here and think that I have to sell you on the Corps, pfffffffffffffftttttttttttt !!!!!!! It's real easy, you either want it or not, we're not selling cars here.

[Zulu 36]

You're 15, You ARE a kid.

Want to see a big difference between the Marine Corps and the Army? Watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6skeoUoHJTs