Back home from Nam

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montana and Mongoose, ya'll are making my skin crawl - getting a little vivid there. At the VA we had a 15 man combat vets group with 2 counselors. One day they got to me and I began to talk of the Nam. I had just poured a cup of coffee in a disposable cup and as I'm talking I didn't realize I had been squeezing the cup and all the hot coffee is pouring out onto my hand and onto the floor. Everyone was just looking at me. I was talking of all my lost brothers and when the therapist pointed out the coffee to me I just became overwhelmed with grief and had to leave the session.

At the VA I was told that they might not be able to help me unless I let go of all my anger. WTF, like I'm trying to stay the way I was. And, Montana, that survival guilt. That had me by the nuts for so many years. Why did I keep coming out. My buds in my squad used to tell me that I couldn't die no matter where they put us. At the VA they told me I thought I was immortal and that was not true and I had to realize that I could die. They wouldn't have said that if they had been with me.

I was called a sociopath for not giving a **** about killing all those gooks, and at the same time I couldn't tell anybody about the total despair and grief when my friends, chopped to pieces, would die in my arms. I would cry with them as they died because we would both know.

At times the Doc's and therapists would spar with me trying to convince me that I could just start thinking of other things when I would see all these pictures and hear all those sounds in my mind. They'd say stupid **** like "Just go and get a glass of water when that happens."

I knew/know my problem. I would tell them that if I was any different than the way I was that I would literally be dead. That was then, they would say, you don't have to kill anyone anymore. In many ways, it sure was a simpler time back then. I still have that theme within me, makes change mighty hard. I've paid many high prices being me, but, I'm still here and so many of my brothers are not.

[USNAviator]

This is from Bill Hunt. His response to a letter from a student about Nam. Interesting perspective especially in regards to POW's


I was met at the airport by my Korean War brother, and I remember being
silent and bitter after he made an innocent comment. He noted in jest that I was
now home and no longer "surrounded by the Viet Cong and all that jazz." It was
said in jest, but it sounded as though he was not inclined to believe that the war
in Vietnam was a real war, a war were in fact I felt the whole time that I was
there that I was indeed surrounded by a hostile force.

I got on another plane the next morning to be reunited with my wife and her
family. I'll never forget being re-introduced to my 16-month old daughter, who
treated me as a complete stranger. That was really hard. My wife had no real
concept of where I had been, even though I had written every day. There was a
new stress in our relationship that is hard to describe.

But more toward your theme, my wife's family barely acknowledged that I had
ever been gone. Did they know I had just returned from war? If they did, they
acted as though it didn't matter.

In about a week I checked in with the rest of my family, and I swear it was as if
I had been down the street buying a loaf of bread. They were very casual about
were I had been. I think that my war duty to them was just another military
assignment, another station. If I had been assigned to a post in Germany or in
Korea their reaction to my coming home would have been about the same.
Vietnam was just part of the background of everyday life, and now I was more
available for invites to family gatherings. No one asked me about the war. They
were totally apathetic on the subject.

At the time, this "treatment" didn't matter much. What was, was. My service in
Vietnam was just as normal to me as walking down the street was normal to
others (though I would have been more comfortable wearing my combat gear).

Vietnam Vets came home and tended stayed to themselves; they didn't talk
about the war, and generally they didn't even meet other vets� who were, after
all, staying quiet about their past. I met my first vet friend in 1974, and
experienced the reality that I knew more about him in 5 minutes than I knew the
other strangers around me, ever. After that, I began to seek out other vets
because they understood me and I understood them.

Unlike many, I did continue to bring up the subject of Vietnam routinely at
social gatherings until the early 1980's. Everything reminded me about the war,
especially food. I had lived with the Vietnamese, and I missed the food, believe
it or not. The war was an exciting period in my life, and many many interesting
things happened that under most circumstances people would find interesting,
though there was rarely much social feedback.

Then one day, I mentioned the war at a large lunch affair with various business
clients. I had said something very interesting, I thought, and I was stunned by
the silence that returned. I was so stunned, I stopped mentioning the war for
years.

I wasn't the only vet who stopped mentioning the war. Once, not that long ago,
I was in another business meeting with a group of about six men. Over
sandwiches they started talking about their military experiences. The guys who
shared were not war vets, they had been in the service and were quick to talk
about flying in planes and assignments on ships and various stuff that all ex-GI's
have in common. I didn't say anything, and after all but one of the members had
left the room, I pointed out to the last man seated that he hadn't said anything
either. Turns out he had been a platoon leader in Vietnam and had learned the
same social lesson I had learned. Case closed.

It was 1985 that changed the way I conducted myself. The Today Show
celebrated the 10 year anniversary of the fall of Saigon by broadcasting from
downtown Saigon. Featured was a May Day Parade. I thought that was about
the most insensitive thing I had ever seen. The show was popular with the
American viewers, it got great ratings, and I was appalled.

I wrote my first of many "letters to the editor" after that. I just felt that the
American people needed some small insight from the perspective of a Vietnam
Vet. Dumb stuff was being said every day, and I felt a need to point out dumb
stuff, and add something new.

Newspaper editors loved what I had to say, probably because at the time no one
was mentioning Vietnam at all in any meaningful way. I was called on the
phone more than once by other vets, who wanted to thank me for my "letters",
and that fueled my need to write on. A mover and shaker in Stockton who
wanted to help raise money for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Sacramento
enlisted my help in dealing with the media, and I started to work with other vets
on a major project that has given me life-long friendships.

I learned two important things from my experience with fund raising for the
California Memorial: (1) Only vets and their families cared about contributing
money toward such a thing, and (2) some vets are very intelligence thinkers.
They are very successful in their careers, and they care a lot about honor and
the future.

I also met plenty of vets who are loved by the media. They are not the same
vets. They wore military jungle fatigues and boonie hats and phony metals
and seemed to have a hard time taking a bath on a regular basis. The media
treated them as the only vets: the victim vets. And to this day, there are
media people who think all Vietnam Veterans wear boonie hats 24 hours a day,
take drugs, sleep in the streets, and need help just to shave.

It's important to remember, when discussing how veterans were treated after
the war, that we as a nation lost the war. That was a new experience for
America. I know that I assumed we would win the war, on some level, until I
was half way through my own tour. I was raised to believe that winning wars
was something one took for granted in America.

When your side is the loser, how does one behave? Americans acted as though
they wanted to blame the soldiers, but couldn't. They adopted a comfortable
mindset that somehow Vietnam Veterans were victims of bad government
decisions. The media picked that up, and a whole mythology was created.
Hollywood sold movies built around the theme, and even guys who were never
in the military, but felt like victims, started wearing jungle fatigues just for the
whole natural feel of it.

As a result, our only heroes from the war are ex-POWs; the poster boy victims
of a cruel enemy. National law now requires that we fly the ex-POW flag on
the same staff as the Stars and Stripes. I call it the "poor me" flag. Sometimes I
call it the "black rag".

I believe in honoring ex-POWs, but those who think about it will tell you that it is
not good for anyone to view themselves as a victim. It's unhealthy. And it is
inaccurate in the case of all but a very few. When I think about victims, I think of
several Vietnamese families and soldiers I know who put all their chips on
America and lost big-time.

[HST]

Dan, i don't know that I agree with that a whole lot. I agree that hollywood made brando and sollone and other pyched out azzholes the poster boys for us. Speaking for me, I've never really given a sh*t about what people thought about vets or me, I can talk about Nam or not, it's my life and my business. the POW thing means less than nothing to me, I was a snuff, the gooks didn't take us prisoner, they killed us and we killed them, I guess being a pow was a b*tch but they lived, the snuffs that tried to surrender got tortured and killed.

The thing that bites me about nam is for a lot of people Nam thing has become a way to ride free, nam was the first war that you could get paid if you claim you be "stressed" in past wars there were few because they would refer you to a shrink, now they pay you, I've talked to guys that were getting 3,4 thousand a month, tax free. I've had some of the "service reps" offer to get me in on the goodies, I may be an azzhole to some but I'm a honest azzhole, I work for my money. I'll bet if the VA started putting the so called PSTD damaged warriors in psych hospitals for treatment instead of paying them off, the numbers would fall dramatically.

[03Foxtrot]

We all handle it differently.
There is no one right way to deal with the effects of war on an individual.
Each of us has our own memories and experiences and each of us suffers in our own way.
There are those who had hot chow and steaks and cold beer and movies on a regular basis, and rest assured, their memories and opinions are vastly different from a grunt's point of view.
I never hid from my service and I always responded appropriately to attacks from every quarter and direction, but I also never went looking for confrontation.
Over the years, I learned to usually remain silent and to watch and listen unless I or my buddies were personally attacked.
The perception of the American public went from Viet-Nam veterans being poorly led and used as pawns of the political leaders to one of Viet-Nam veterans being uncontrolled war criminals and either alcohol or drug users, during and after the war. I retreated into my own world of anger and bitterness and like many, I never knew that I was but one of many that had the same flaws, a testament to how many of us managed "to go it alone" in a country that seemed happy to turn it's back on us and would rather look for excuses then confront the reality of the war and the hidden burden we carried.
I don't agree that the only acceptable heros are those captured in combat. POW's rate the admiration and gratitude of America but they are by no means the only heros of this misunderstood war.
Before us came the veterans of the Korean War and I believe they were also mistreated and forgotten by an ungrateful nation. This is what happens when wars become politically motivated and the general public feels disconnected to it.
Semper Fi, Scott

[chulaivet1966]

I've watched this thread evolve and will comment briefly.

When I returned to CONUS after 13 months I was still 19 years old.
I could relate to absolutely no one.
All previous friends, relationships had no meaning or depth because they knew nothing about life, sacrifice, courage or personal loss.
They were all still in their high school mentalities which I was embarrassed to be associated with.....I felt light years ahead of them in many ways.
For ALL those I left behind, so to speak, their life ended at their f'cking sidewalk.
Don't mean so sound judgmental that just my personal feelings.
I have always been a loner and have no desire to join any clubs or organizations.
I don't sport any USMC stuff in public and no one knows I've served until I'm asked or I call BS on something that brought up my service history.

So...those are some my thoughts.

Lastly...there is no Brotherhood like the USMC as we all know what we had to endure to earn the EGA.
I am extremely proud to have served as a Marine and be able to shoot the **** and share some old realities and events with all the Brothers here....for as long as I'm allowed, that is.

[03Foxtrot]

Wayne,
I too am a loner. Like you, I did not fit in anymore and I guess I still don't.
I tried to join a few organizations such as the MCL but shortly after, I felt out of place. I attend and go along with the agenda for awhile and then I just disappear. The Toys for Tots, good as it is, was not my main objective and most of the members did not identify with me or my place in the war. I'm sure I was looked on as not a team player but one of my issues is the anger and hurt that I feel from the distance and ostracism that my country placed on me way back when. I'll be damned if I will put up with it now from anyone. The fact there were few Viet-Nam veterans and those that were had been officers and non-combat roles didn't help. Just like when I ride my bike or attend Harley functions, I arrive and leave alone. I disappear into the crowd and mix and observe and listen and then make my exit quietly. I am close but never intimate, if you know what I mean. As I said before, I am a mixed bag and I know I'm far less then what I should be but I am what I am and I've managed to stay one step ahead of the grim reaper and for that I am usually happy and relieved but sometimes perplexed.
Semper Fi, Scott

[chulaivet1966]

03Foxtrot....
That sums up more on my comments.

I'm known as somewhat gruff on the meaty issues of life/attitudes but I have lived long enough to have some confidence in my opinions without needing validation from anyone thanks to my USMC/Vietnam experiences.
IMO.....the only think I can do is set an example of honesty, honor, self confidence and integrity.
Hell.....I'm not not in the obits this morning so life is good.

Respect...

[USNAviator]

I want to thank everyone who has contributed so far. Your honesty has been incredible. The purpose of this was to open the eyes of those not born while Vietnam was being fought. Hopefully it has been an education

My plan is to ask Sgt. Lep to let this run until Memorial Day and then shut it down. I think that would be very appropriate

Fair winds to you all. And to all of your brothers who will forever be 18,19 or 20, Rest in Peace

[chulaivet1966]

I want to thank everyone who has contributed so far. Your honesty has been incredible. The purpose of this was to open the eyes of those not born while Vietnam was being fought. Hopefully it has been an education

My plan is to ask Sgt. Lep to let this run until Memorial Day and then shut it down. I think that would be very appropriate

Fair winds to you all. And to all of your brothers who will forever be 18,19 or 20, Rest in Peace

Couple of quick comments...

I was reluctant but your request was sincere so I caved.
My reluctance is rooted in the fact I don't like to come off as a whiner or sound like I tooting my own horn.
It was no picnic for my unit but there are many who had it much worse than myself which is another reason.
Lastly.....Vietnam Veterans are unaccustomed to the possibility that anyone (other than ourselves) is remotely interested in our experiences.

I think you got some honest responses and hopefully others will chime in for other perspectives.

[USNAviator]

Couple of quick comments...

I was reluctant but your request was sincere so I caved.
My reluctance is rooted in the fact I don't like to come off as a whiner or sound like I tooting my own horn.
It was no picnic for my unit but there are many who had it much worse than myself which is another reason.
Lastly.....Vietnam Veterans are unaccustomed to the possibility that anyone (other than ourselves) is remotely interested in our experiences.

I think you got some honest responses and hopefully others will chime in for other perspectives.

Wayne, thank you very much. I know this has not been easy and I also knew that those who wanted to share would be brutally honest